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weasello
weasello
Join Date 02/2006
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Disable-able research

September 16, 2007 9:03:28 PM from Sins of a Solar Empire ForumsSins of a Solar Empire Forums
Right now it seems like there's no stopping the juggernaut that is research. Once somebody has something, BAM, they have it, and you are in for a world of hurt if you don't do something about it.

But what can you do?

I propose that for a technology to be available and active for a civilization, they should own the appropriate amount of research stations for that type. ie; if a civilization has 15 military stations and just researched Insurrection, if you blow up one of their stations they temporarily lose the effect. They won't have to re-research it; they'd just need to build a replacement station to get the ability back.

This effect incurs an "upkeep" cost for higher technologies: every slot used for a research station is a slot you can't use for economic gain. It adds another method of balance.

It also makes research stations prime targets for attack; take out a few military research stations and suddenly they can't manufacture any more Kodiaks.

Thoughts?
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weasello
WhiteGlint
Join Date 07/2007
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Reply #1 September 16, 2007 9:23:52 PM
from Sins of a Solar Empire ForumsSins of a Solar Empire Forums
It is my experience that when a developer over-balances a game, they kind of kill it. For example the Battlefield series, where someone can take a sniper bullet to the head and keep running. Also what you propose makes absolutly no sense. If you killed the six guys from the Manhattan Project would all nuclear weapons suddenly stop working...no. That would also end up making the game too simple. As you pushed back a civilization they start putting up less and less of a fight due to not having enough research stations to support the building of better technologies.
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weasello
Leid37
Join Date 03/2006
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Reply #2 September 16, 2007 9:36:59 PM
from Sins of a Solar Empire ForumsSins of a Solar Empire Forums
Hmm thats actually an intriguing idea. Definately points for originality. I wouldnt mind seeing a build that tested something like this. My only concern would be that the strong got stronger and the weak quit long ago. I do understand what your saying overall though, and I agree with you.

One of the best things about the civ games was the resources. You needed iron to build swordsman and uranium to build nukes. This tended to prevent stale games, especially considering that you couldnt know where all the resources were located until you researched that era. Would something like this satisfy your desire to give meaning to raids and slowing down juggernauts without "over balancing" like glint said?
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weasello
weasello
Join Date 02/2006
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Reply #3 September 16, 2007 9:38:03 PM
from Sins of a Solar Empire ForumsSins of a Solar Empire Forums
Well it balances the other way if you DON'T implement this system. If you research everything in your tech tree (or everything you want to research now, anyway), you can blow up all of your research stations and build additional trading posts/resource collectors. Not only do you get to keep your research, but you are rewarded by getting more income/profits as well!

The person with the most tech, therefore, is also the person with the most income/resource potential, and therefore can make the biggest/best army.

In my last game, I built 15 civ stations, researched everything, blew them up, made 15 military, researched everything, then converted them all to trading posts. The whole time I felt like I was "gaming" the system. Something feels wrong about building a fully ugpraded LRM Missle Boat and giving others insurgents while I had no research stations in the game.
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weasello
Leid37
Join Date 03/2006
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Reply #4 September 16, 2007 9:46:13 PM
from Sins of a Solar Empire ForumsSins of a Solar Empire Forums
I agree completely. It seems almost like an exploit and I do it every time. Your way would force someone to either play economically, militarily or meet in the middle with a hybrid tech tree (assuming they werent huge to begin with). Would definately add more depth to the system.
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weasello
Blair Fraser
Join Date 10/2006
+292 moderator
Reply #5 September 16, 2007 9:49:12 PM
from Sins of a Solar Empire ForumsSins of a Solar Empire Forums
We tried this and it didn't work out well - it was way too easy to put someone on the slippery slope to losing. Once you had a key research disabled it was way too hard to catch up. Instead, we added other bonuses to research labs that you lose when they are destroyed as an incentive to not destroy them. For example, if you destroy all your military labs, your military productions rates are going to suffer a lot. Perhaps it's not currently penalizing enough.
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weasello
weasello
Join Date 02/2006
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Reply #6 September 16, 2007 9:52:13 PM
from Sins of a Solar Empire ForumsSins of a Solar Empire Forums
Hmmm, interesting take. A reward for holding on to them would definitely work as well.

of course, I had no idea there was production bonuses, so maybe you *should* increase them a bit. Or at least tell us what the figures are.
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weasello
Leid37
Join Date 03/2006
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Reply #7 September 16, 2007 9:55:04 PM
from Sins of a Solar Empire ForumsSins of a Solar Empire Forums
Wow I had no idea thats how it worked.
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weasello
Blair Fraser
Join Date 10/2006
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Reply #8 September 16, 2007 9:59:31 PM
from Sins of a Solar Empire ForumsSins of a Solar Empire Forums

Alas, it seems that no one reads the info cards we put so much work into  Almost every function anything has in the game is exposed by hovering over the unit/research/build item/ etc. We are trying to make the game as transparent as possible. There are rewards for keeping your civic labs as well, try hovering over one.

But yes, it's been a growing sentiment here that the rewards aren't high enough.

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weasello
RonLugge
Join Date 05/2004
+50
Reply #9 September 16, 2007 10:05:05 PM
from Sins of a Solar Empire ForumsSins of a Solar Empire Forums
Once somebody has something, BAM, they have it, and you are in for a world of hurt if you don't do something about it.


... huh? Sure, you have to match whatever technology they researched, but why is that a bad thing?

Edit: And by match I mean counterbalance, you could match improved shields with improved weapons, improved shields, or improved economy (the more ships to kill you with, my dear...)
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weasello
weasello
Join Date 02/2006
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Reply #10 September 16, 2007 10:13:33 PM
from Sins of a Solar Empire ForumsSins of a Solar Empire Forums
Alas, it seems that no one reads the info cards we put so much work into


Aww man, I felt really bad after reading that

NO WAIT

I CALL YOU OUT SIR

I just fired up the game and hovered over all sorts of research-base icons, both building, under construction, built, and other structures as well, and the only indicator of an advancement is "This structure allows you to advance civilian technology" or some such.

... huh? Sure, you have to match whatever technology they researched, but why is that a bad thing?


I'm just saying it would be nice if you had multiple ways of fighting back. Other games have espionage (maybe this one does too? beta3?), ability to reduce tech for a faction, etc... You know, the classic "warmonger vs. brain vs. diplomacy" balance.
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weasello
WhiteGlint
Join Date 07/2007
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Reply #11 September 16, 2007 10:19:39 PM
from Sins of a Solar Empire ForumsSins of a Solar Empire Forums
I believe there should never be a point in the game where you can say "Well my military tech. is well reseached I think I'll convert them to civilian installations now". You should have to always have a number of each kind. I don't have any ideas how this might take place, but I'm confident in the dev's abilities.
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weasello
Leid37
Join Date 03/2006
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Reply #12 September 16, 2007 10:24:49 PM
from Sins of a Solar Empire ForumsSins of a Solar Empire Forums
Weasel is correct, no tool tip indicating bonuses. Mind if we ask what they are?
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weasello
Blair Fraser
Join Date 10/2006
+292 moderator
Reply #13 September 16, 2007 10:37:01 PM
from Sins of a Solar Empire ForumsSins of a Solar Empire Forums
LOL! My bad, I'm using a different version than the one you have. Military labs decrease ship production times, civic labs decrease structure build times.
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weasello
Vandenburg
Join Date 04/2006
+43
Reply #14 September 17, 2007 6:05:56 AM
from Sins of a Solar Empire ForumsSins of a Solar Empire Forums
LOL! My bad, I'm using a different version than the one you have. Military labs decrease ship production times, civic labs decrease structure build times.


Mind if you would share your version with us?
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weasello
RonLugge
Join Date 05/2004
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Reply #15 September 17, 2007 10:58:44 AM
from Sins of a Solar Empire ForumsSins of a Solar Empire Forums


Mind if you would share your version with us?


Sure he minds

Now, give us beta three now now now now now now now!
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weasello
pek1999
Join Date 03/2003
+2
Reply #16 September 17, 2007 11:57:28 AM
from Stardock ForumsStardock Forums
I second that motion, Beta 3 now!!!! It's got fixes for at least 3 different crashes/hangs I've found so far, at least that's what I've heard from support when I've sent in dumps. Not that much concerned with MP, just want to find more bugs. Like to find bugs.

pek
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weasello
tomalexander
Join Date 05/2006
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Reply #17 September 18, 2007 8:49:29 AM
from Sins of a Solar Empire ForumsSins of a Solar Empire Forums
I tend to build 15 of military at first then destroy them to build 15 civilian by which point I have all the techs and can destroy almost any opponent by military means and darken the solar system to convert the destroyed civs into broadcasting centres.

I've not noticed any disincentive to destroy the labs or a slowdown in the production times. By that point I am too powerful  and it feels good. VERY good!

I feel almost forced into doing it this way as because the logistics is way too low (even with 4 planets and 6 asteroids))and doing hybrid tech trees just makes me lose everytime!
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weasello
lordkosc
Join Date 12/2006
+6
Reply #18 September 18, 2007 10:10:49 AM
from Sins of a Solar Empire ForumsSins of a Solar Empire Forums

LOL! My bad, I'm using a different version than the one you have. Military labs decrease ship production times, civic labs decrease structure build times.


wait thats in the game now ?
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