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Spartan
Spartan
Join Date 03/2006
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The Cruiser Question

Do you have it?

December 21, 2007 6:05:01 PM from Sins of a Solar Empire ForumsSins of a Solar Empire Forums
I was going to include this along with some other issues in my other thread but decided not to for obvious reasons. However given this issue is not a major design change I figured it at least merits its own discussion.

One thing that has bothered me for the longest time is that we start with a capital ship and not with a cruiser. Moreover it takes a considerable investment to be able to make cruisers. This situation just seems antithetical to me with regards to the principles involved in the game.

It would seem more reasonible to start with a cruiser then have to invest to be able to make capital ships. I still cant rationalize the current situation unless I look at the game from a sales point of view and consider the capital ships as "hero" units and I simply dont want to do that as a player.

What do others think about this? Am I the only one who finds the current setup flawed?
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Spartan
RonLugge
Join Date 05/2004
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Reply #1 December 21, 2007 6:17:31 PM
from Sins of a Solar Empire ForumsSins of a Solar Empire Forums
Personally, I'm fine with the setup -- the cruisers require additional research which the capitols don't.
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Spartan
Spartan
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Reply #2 December 21, 2007 6:42:35 PM
from Sins of a Solar Empire ForumsSins of a Solar Empire Forums

Personally, I'm fine with the setup -- the cruisers require additional research which the capitols don't.


That is my point. Why the Cruisers?

Historically "capital" ships represented a statement about a country's power, might and technology. They are supposed to reflect the apex of military power and a willingness to invest considerable resources into such developments and capacity.

Whereas cruisers were designed to fulfill general roles at minimum costs with high efficiency and were not meant to be seen as statements of power or technology. They were ships that could be produced in limited mass and had considerable threat value.

I think that a basic cruiser should be available from the start just as a basic capital ship should be and technologies should be developed in order to be able to build variant versions of each class.
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RonLugge
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Reply #3 December 21, 2007 6:46:45 PM
from Sins of a Solar Empire ForumsSins of a Solar Empire Forums


I think that a basic cruiser should be available from the start just as a basic capital ship should be and technologies should be developed in order to be able to build variant versions of each class.


What is a "Basic" cruiser? No such beastie!
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Stratteggi
Join Date 01/2007
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Reply #4 December 21, 2007 6:49:41 PM
from Sins of a Solar Empire ForumsSins of a Solar Empire Forums
Big != technologically advanced
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Spartan
Spartan
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Reply #5 December 21, 2007 6:53:39 PM
from Sins of a Solar Empire ForumsSins of a Solar Empire Forums

What is a "Basic" cruiser? No such beastie!


That has yet to be determined I guess. For the capital ships it would likely be the battleship variant or first option in the bar. For cruisers I would assume it would be the one that handles general combat from the existing selection likely the first one listed in the bar as well.
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RonLugge
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Reply #6 December 21, 2007 6:57:43 PM
from Sins of a Solar Empire ForumsSins of a Solar Empire Forums

That has yet to be determined I guess.


Not so much hasn't been determined, as it doesn't exist

Big != technologically advanced or difficult.
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AvatarCenturion
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Reply #7 December 21, 2007 7:00:13 PM
from Sins of a Solar Empire ForumsSins of a Solar Empire Forums
Big != technologically advanced


not nessescarily....  
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Paradoxnt
Join Date 02/2007
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Reply #8 December 21, 2007 11:35:46 PM
from Sins of a Solar Empire ForumsSins of a Solar Empire Forums
It would be a neat multiplayer game option. Although people would choose the Heavy Combat Cruiser every time.
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Spartan
Spartan
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Reply #9 December 22, 2007 12:23:03 AM
from Sins of a Solar Empire ForumsSins of a Solar Empire Forums

It would be a neat multiplayer game option. Although people would choose the Heavy Combat Cruiser every time.


As a basic cruiser that would be OK; I would expect as much given our current options. Another option would be to make a balanced one or a "combat cruiser" with maybe a 30% reduction in all stats.
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DrewSF
Join Date 10/2006
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Reply #10 December 22, 2007 1:23:36 AM
from Sins of a Solar Empire ForumsSins of a Solar Empire Forums
I don't think it matters much in the single player arena but I think there are going to have to be some changes from the multi-player/online perspective in order to make the games shorter. I've been thinking the online games need to start players out with a small fleet and probably more than one planet.
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Spartan
Spartan
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Reply #11 December 22, 2007 2:41:24 AM
from Sins of a Solar Empire ForumsSins of a Solar Empire Forums

I don't think it matters much in the single player arena but I think there are going to have to be some changes from the multi-player/online perspective in order to make the games shorter. I've been thinking the online games need to start players out with a small fleet and probably more than one planet.


Wow our multiplayer games tend to be rather fast. They usually last about an hour or less. I dont think that is to long at all. I'm curious as to how you think making a cruiser available at the start will shorten the games however.

It is currently easy to create a fleet within minutes under the current system and ship spamming has proven to be a problematic already. Thus starting with a small fleet would only accelerate this situation.
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Stratteggi
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Reply #12 December 22, 2007 10:29:45 AM
from Sins of a Solar Empire ForumsSins of a Solar Empire Forums

Big != technologically advanced


not nessescarily....  


Just because you can have something big and technologically advanced doesn't meant the two things need to be together, or are equal.
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Reply #13 December 22, 2007 10:45:22 AM
from Sins of a Solar Empire ForumsSins of a Solar Empire Forums
Wow our multiplayer games tend to be rather fast. They usually last about an hour or less. I dont think that is to long at all. I'm curious as to how you think making a cruiser available at the start will shorten the games however.


Then you are playing on small maps. Most of the games i play go in excess of 1 hr. 45 mins.

I agree that we should get a crusier earlier in the game, but idk its worth making a big deal over. Crusiers are great and everything, but in reality w/o their abilites they are kinda dumb(kodiak takes forever to attack w/o intercpt ability)
Without at least 5 Perichins its not really effective. For most of the Cruisers you would need at least 3 to keep them balanced and working in a large fleet.

Just because you can have something big and technologically advanced doesn't meant the two things need to be together, or are equal.


exactly
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Lharrs
Join Date 02/2007
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Reply #14 December 22, 2007 1:34:13 PM
from Sins of a Solar Empire ForumsSins of a Solar Empire Forums
I think that this a really simple thing, most all RTS games ever have a Hero unit that is put with a player to sort of balance things out a bit, the Caps are Hero units.
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Spartan
Spartan
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Reply #15 December 22, 2007 2:09:58 PM
from Sins of a Solar Empire ForumsSins of a Solar Empire Forums
Thanks for the input guys. I agree it is not worth a making a big deal over. I can just see this minor point being a bone of contention once the title is released - I know call me crazy.

Anyway I guess the real issue at hand is basic ship configuration options. There should be a basic attack as well as defense and a balanced version of each vessel class. Then the special variants should be added into the mix; after that any race specific ones.

For what it is worth I think we should have to work to get our first capital ship. Thus I think we should start with two or maybe three cruisers. I suggest this since capitals are considered so important that they are limited by design and that notion is firmly demonstrated within the tech tree.

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Craig Fraser
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Reply #16 December 22, 2007 9:55:59 PM
from Sins of a Solar Empire ForumsSins of a Solar Empire Forums
I suggest this since capitals are considered so important that they are limited by design and that notion is firmly demonstrated within the tech tree.
  Capital Ship and fleet 'supply' are seperated into their own research area now.
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Spartan
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Reply #17 December 22, 2007 10:00:56 PM
from Sins of a Solar Empire ForumsSins of a Solar Empire Forums

I suggest this since capitals are considered so important that they are limited by design and that notion is firmly demonstrated within the tech tree.
  Capital Ship and fleet 'supply' are seperated into their own research area now.


Sweet. An excellent turn of events. That further emphasizes the importance of capital ships which strengthens by position.
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