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archpsi
archpsi
Join Date 02/2006
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different replays of flaks vs LRM and then mixed fleet vs lrm only

February 20, 2008 4:38:25 PM from Sins of a Solar Empire ForumsSins of a Solar Empire Forums
first 4 replays are garda vs LRM
5th is illuminators vs defense.
last part is discussion about clusterwarheads

replay 1:

I made a map to demonstrate garda vs LRM (garda is the worse flak price wise and LRM seems to be the best price wise) after seeing that people continue to totally ignore posts which state flak as a counter to LRM.

This is just a demonstration of the power of flaks vs LRM's, I did require micro to pull this off, however I could have maybe improved the micro quite a bit (e.g. I moved all of them instead of the one being focus fired, I moved them at the start too far out) and a lot was just shift queuing movement.

Worse flak (stat wise the garda is not as good as the defense, Sentinel for its cost. sentinel gets aoe laser later on, so you have to take that into account when comparing flaks) vs best LRM (stat wise the tec LRM is the cheapest for dps)


fleet make up.
10 LRM's: 2500 credits, 400 metal, 200 crystal and 40 supply.
vs
5 garda's: 1875 credits, 200 metal, 125 crystal and 20 supply.
outcome
10 dead lrm, 2 garda alive.

the cpu that barely microed didnt do so well.

link
http://www.megaupload.com/?d=R06Q7GV2

this also demonstrates how effective micro can be in this game.

replay 2:
7 flaks vs 10 LRM, no micro at all.

fleet make up:
10 LRM's: 2500 credits, 400 metal, 200 crystal and 40 supply.
vs
7 garda's: 2625 credits, 280 metal, 175 crystal and 28 supply. (selling 120 metal and 25 crystal at lowest sell price is 290 credits).

outcome:
10 dead lrm, 3 garda alive (one barely, under 80 hp or so).

http://www.megaupload.com/?d=4UU57U2G

replay 3:

mixed fleet vs 49 lrm.

49 LRM vs 21 flaks and 20 LRM. (was supposed to be 50, but cant be bothered doing it again for one more).
mixed fleet: 12875 credits, 1640 metal, 1025 crystal and 164 supply.
vs
LRM fleet: 12250, 1960 metal, 980 crystal and 196 supply.

outcome: 10 flaks alive (one barely).

http://files.filefront.com/mixedfleetrecord/;9672984;/fileinfo.html


replay 4: only 4 minutes long.

just for fun .

mixed fleet vs 50 lrm.

50 LRM vs 20 LRM and 55 scouts (if you convert metal and crystal into credits, 30 LRM = 55.5 scouts, ignoring costs to tech to LRM).
roughly equal costs, bit more for LRM.
50 LRM: 200 supply.
20 LRM and 55 scouts: 190 supply.

outcome: from the mixed fleet 8 scouts and 20 LRM alive, 50 dead from LRM fleet.

http://files.filefront.com/scout2record/;9673197;/fileinfo.html

I just did this test for fun, please try to avoid mass producing scouts, they are not worth it, flaks can be used vs a combined force of LRM, fighters/bombers, siege and have much better survivability (used as tanks vs pirates/rebels..etc).

replay 5:
10 defense vs 10 illuminators

10 illuminators: 3500 credits, 500 metal, 400 crystal and 60 supply
vs
10 defense: 3500 credits, 400 metal, 200 crystal and 30 supply (could have made it 11-12 and not 10).


outcome:
10 dead illuminator, 7 alive defense (one barely).

http://files.filefront.com/illumvsdefenserecord/;9674236;/fileinfo.html

clusterwarheads

I made a mod where the LRM's started with clusterwarheads and except for that everything was identical (flaks got no upgrades at all in anyway)

did the exact same test as replay 2, got the following results
10 dead LRM, 2 flak alive.

the replay crashes sins, if I try running it without the mod enabled.

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archpsi
Astax
Join Date 04/2003
+24
Reply #1 February 20, 2008 4:42:04 PM
from Sins of a Solar Empire ForumsSins of a Solar Empire Forums
Please stop what you are doing!
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archpsi
Rhedd_V
Join Date 02/2008
+13
Reply #2 February 20, 2008 4:45:46 PM
from Sins of a Solar Empire ForumsSins of a Solar Empire Forums
Please stop what you are doing!
?

I found it useful information.

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archpsi
Limz!
Join Date 02/2008
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Reply #3 February 20, 2008 4:49:07 PM
from Sins of a Solar Empire ForumsSins of a Solar Empire Forums
I know I should watch the replay, but at the same time I think logically that this replay is a complete waste of everyone's time. It is common knowledge that flaks school LRMs but the whole thing is can you save the rest of your fleet from being annihilated before they withdraw?

You will be losing a cap ship or you'll have to withdraw one that is nearly dead and the battle has just begun. Furthermore, the flaks are virtually worthless against anything but light and very light meaning you do nearly zero DPS against say another cap ship or medium or heavy armor targets.

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archpsi
archpsi
Join Date 02/2006
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Reply #4 February 20, 2008 4:52:11 PM
from Sins of a Solar Empire ForumsSins of a Solar Empire Forums
Please stop what you are doing!


your either implying that you dont want people to know counters or that its misleading.

I was under the impression(based on your other posts) that you wanted people to be aware of the strategies/tactics in the game.
If this post is misleading, please tell me why.

I just want to make my opponents/allies a bit better and not have to argue with people in a middle of a game (e.g. player x: no im not gonna make flaks to kill his LRM... stop tricking me its only anti-fighter).
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archpsi
archpsi
Join Date 02/2006
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Reply #5 February 20, 2008 4:54:48 PM
from Sins of a Solar Empire ForumsSins of a Solar Empire Forums
I know I should watch the replay, but at the same time I think logically that this replay is a complete waste of everyone's time. It is common knowledge that flaks school LRMs but the whole thing is can you save the rest of your fleet from being annihilated before they withdraw? You will be losing a cap ship or you'll have to withdraw one that is nearly dead and the battle has just begun. Furthermore, the flaks are virtually worthless against anything but light and very light meaning you do nearly zero DPS against say another cap ship or medium or heavy armor targets.


yes it is a useless replay to people who know this, but many people do not.

about flaks damage being useless vs non light-verylight armour, yes that correct and the reason you should never make a only flak fleet.

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archpsi
Limz!
Join Date 02/2008
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Reply #6 February 20, 2008 5:03:13 PM
from Sins of a Solar Empire ForumsSins of a Solar Empire Forums
When you're Advent and you're stuck facing mass LRMs you really don't have a choice but to mass Defense frigs and run your Disciples away otherwise you'll end up with a fleet of only Defense frigs with no cap ship and no disciples

Illuminators really come in too late and fighter swarms die off to a few flak frigs.
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archpsi
OGGleep
Join Date 03/2006
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Reply #7 February 20, 2008 6:00:38 PM
from Sins of a Solar Empire ForumsSins of a Solar Empire Forums
Youtube replaysfor the win.
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archpsi
nazoth
Join Date 04/2006
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Reply #8 February 20, 2008 6:22:52 PM
from Stardock ForumsStardock Forums
Yeah this replay proves exactly nothing. You carefully microed the flaks to circle strafe the LRM's, which were completely stationary. Its no suprise that micro will tip the favor of a battle heavily, no one's argueing that.

Had you put 5 stationary flaks agianst 10 stationary LRM's in a more realistic and strategic scenario and gotten the same results, you might have an effective counter.

I don't believe that being able to micro better than your opponent should win out in games like this. Better fleet compositions, resource management and THINKING should determine the ideal winner. But as it stands, the winner is the guy who can spam LRM's the quickest, and maybe you can combat it with intense micro IF you can catch this "strategy" in time. This isn't how the game should be, and is an imbalance.

And before you want to play the "lol balanced fleets win out over that" card, post a replay of such, because I haven't seen it.
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archpsi
moogleii
Join Date 02/2008
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Reply #9 February 20, 2008 6:35:49 PM
from Sins of a Solar Empire ForumsSins of a Solar Empire Forums
Thanks for the post, gonna have to watch this when i get home.
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archpsi
archpsi
Join Date 02/2006
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Reply #10 February 20, 2008 6:57:38 PM
from Sins of a Solar Empire ForumsSins of a Solar Empire Forums
for those who dont micro I admit 5 flaks cannot kill 10 LRM's without micro, heres a new replay that shows 0 micro.
7 flaks vs 10 LRM, no micro at all.

fleet make up:
10 LRM's: 2500 credits, 400 metal, 200 crystal and 40 supply.
vs
7 garda's: 2625 credits, 280 metal, 175 crystal and 28 supply. (selling 120 metal and 25 crystal at lowest sell price is 290 credits).

outcome:
10 dead lrm, 3 garda alive (one barely, under 80 hp or so).

megaupload link.

due to the fact that flaks shoot from 4 sides, flaks would actually do better the bigger the enemy swarm is, in these replays the LRM form a small line, so in most cases most flaks at most are using 2 of the 4 guns. In massive swarms, flaks which are moved into the swarm will have more targets to shoot at and thus the dps might be overall higher.
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archpsi
Ragnar1211
Join Date 02/2008
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Reply #11 February 20, 2008 7:05:22 PM
from Sins of a Solar Empire ForumsSins of a Solar Empire Forums
I did notice that you did not designate Squadrons for the LRM's.

The LRM's seemed awful confused... spinning round and round - good thing their missles can turn in a semi-circle!
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archpsi
Bubb9
Join Date 05/2006
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Reply #12 February 20, 2008 7:10:18 PM
from Sins of a Solar Empire ForumsSins of a Solar Empire Forums
LRMs are meant to be an artillery unit not a basic combat unit so OF COURSE they lost, and anyways gardas at least are already overpowered due to the fact they have huge amounts of armor and HP.


P.S. Use filefront please I don't want to install another series of video players just to watch one video.
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archpsi
archpsi
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Reply #13 February 20, 2008 7:18:57 PM
from Sins of a Solar Empire ForumsSins of a Solar Empire Forums
. This isn't how the game should be, and is an imbalance.And before you want to play the "lol balanced fleets win out over that" card, post a replay of such, because I haven't seen it.


okay soon I will do a balanced fleet, aka mix of two combos (LRM and flak) vs an only LRM spammer.
however it will be a much longer replay, but should be fun none the less.

oh since you got so upset over micro, I will not micro my side in the massive fleet to fleet battle and thus if the a.i micros the other side badly, you cant blame me.

okay uploaded in first post.


P.S. Use filefront please I don't want to install another series of video players just to watch one video.


okay uploaded the last file to filefront, might use it from now on thanks for the advice.
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archpsi
Bubb9
Join Date 05/2006
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Reply #14 February 20, 2008 9:13:32 PM
from Sins of a Solar Empire ForumsSins of a Solar Empire Forums
Np finally someone who appreciates good advice.
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archpsi
Ragnar1211
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Reply #15 February 20, 2008 9:36:40 PM
from Sins of a Solar Empire ForumsSins of a Solar Empire Forums
Good job.

I like these sort of experiments.

Next mission: How many LRM's can a single lvl 1 capital ship take out???
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archpsi
soase_player
Join Date 02/2008
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Reply #16 February 20, 2008 10:16:06 PM
from Sins of a Solar Empire ForumsSins of a Solar Empire Forums
LRMs are meant to be an artillery unit not a basic combat unit so OF COURSE they lost, and anyways gardas at least are already overpowered due to the fact they have huge amounts of armor and HP.P.S. Use filefront please I don't want to install another series of video players just to watch one video.


How do you go about keeping artillery units away from combat when it's just an extra second or two for the flaks to move up and get close to the LRMs. We're not talking about LRMs that have a range of half the gravity well here, it's not a big stretch to move your anti-LRMs into place to fire on the LRMs. You don't exactly have a way of stopping the flaks from crossing your front lines.

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archpsi
Malekish
Join Date 05/2005
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Reply #17 February 20, 2008 11:26:01 PM
from Sins of a Solar Empire ForumsSins of a Solar Empire Forums
I'm rather enjoying using Flaks as a counter, sure, they're weaker against the standard light frigate (75%) however they're tough as nails and I don't have to replace them very often.

I don't play MP so my games are only vs AI but I'm starting to put 2-4 Flaks in every one of my fleets along with going 50/50 fighter bomber wings.
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archpsi
ConanBloodbane
Join Date 01/2008
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Reply #18 February 21, 2008 2:56:01 AM
from Sins of a Solar Empire ForumsSins of a Solar Empire Forums
gardas at least are already overpowered due to the fact they have huge amounts of armor and HP.


no they aren't, and i consider this statement to be ridiculous tbh. please tell me you have a better reason for claiming a unit is overpowered than this.

How do you go about keeping artillery units away from combat when it's just an extra second or two for the flaks to move up and get close to the LRMs.


if this is happening either get the lrms out, or consider them kamikaze and bring down whatever they'll kill fastest, as it will take a while for the flak to chomp through them
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archpsi
BigBadB
Join Date 03/2006
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Reply #19 February 21, 2008 3:28:53 AM
from Sins of a Solar Empire ForumsSins of a Solar Empire Forums
LRMs are meant to be an artillery unit not a basic combat unit so OF COURSE they lost, and anyways gardas at least are already overpowered due to the fact they have huge amounts of armor and HP.

Erm, how do you figure that they're 'overpowered'? They're next to useless against anything other than VeryLight (fighters) and Light (bombers, scouts, siege frigates, long range frigates) armour.

In addition, their Heavy armour is vulnerable to the basic light frigates (which do Anti-Heavy damage). Light frigates fighting flaks do 125% damage, while the flaks do 25% damage to the light frigates.
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archpsi
Kwitzak1
Join Date 02/2008
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Reply #20 February 21, 2008 3:40:00 AM
from Sins of a Solar Empire ForumsSins of a Solar Empire Forums
Have you maxed the missile before your test...
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archpsi
archpsi
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Reply #21 February 21, 2008 3:54:16 AM
from Sins of a Solar Empire ForumsSins of a Solar Empire Forums
no the test starts with no upgrades at all, because its a new game and I havent seen a option to increase tech in forgetools (they arent that good, I gotta manually add 50 ships at a time).

but your right it could make a difference(cluster warheads that is), but at the same time other techs would benefit flaks. (higher hp/armour techs would help flaks more).

hmm, if anyone knows how to enable techs through a mod, please tell me what to change.
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archpsi
Zaphear
Join Date 02/2008
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Reply #22 February 21, 2008 5:15:09 AM
from Sins of a Solar Empire ForumsSins of a Solar Empire Forums
really good post, i think.
didn't watch the replays yet, but as there is a detailed statistic of what happened, i don't think i need to.

why im posting really is to ask: wtf is it with all the "oh no you didn't!" and "you ain't provin nothin!"
if you already know whats written here, why bother reading it, and even more, why bother posting to say "i know that already!" or "this is useless!"
it may be interesting/useful for some (i find it interesting, even if it won't change much of my tactics), that's enough reason to post isn't it?
cant hurt to have detailed battle analysis statistics for different fleet combos / spam fleets.
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archpsi
Erres1108
Join Date 02/2008
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Reply #23 February 21, 2008 8:25:39 AM
from Sins of a Solar Empire ForumsSins of a Solar Empire Forums
I do consider flaks slightly overpowered as they are the only kind of non-capital ships that can be easily micro'd to gain a significant advantage in a fight; due to their 360 degree attacking angle, you can just make them circle your enemies while they hopelessly turn around and around till they are dead. Your enemy could, of course, try to spread their ships in the gravity well, but then one can always counter by taking the opposing ships 1 by 1.

This greatly hinders the flaks' supposed counter, the light frigates, effectiveness against them. Together with flaks' high armor, high hull points and high shield points, I consider flaks to be one of the few types of ships in SINS which has no natural counter.

Advent's defenders, in particular, are very exploitable due to the supply slots they take (3), which is significantly lower than every single ship type other than scouts. A level 2 logistic supply of defenders could sustain a fleet comparable to a fleet that requires a level 3-4 logistic supply. Even though flaks don't do very well against buildings, meaning opponents could very well ignore you and it will take quite a while for you to do significant damage, throw in a few purgers and guardians and you would have an unkillable and destructive fleet at your disposal.
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archpsi
archpsi
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Reply #24 February 21, 2008 8:30:17 AM
from Sins of a Solar Empire ForumsSins of a Solar Empire Forums
Have you maxed the missile before your test...


I gave LRM's clusterwarheads and did the exact setup as replay 2 (no micro), 2 flak survived (many were taking aoe damage, but a lot was indirectly migated through them regening slowly).

if I start upgrading missile damage, then I have to upgrade autocannon damage..hp..shields..armour, so im gonna leave that out for now.

however even with LRM's having a clear advantage (clusterwarheads) the LRM's lost.
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archpsi
HuntingX
Join Date 02/2006
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Reply #25 February 21, 2008 8:37:04 AM
from Sins of a Solar Empire ForumsSins of a Solar Empire Forums
LRMs do almost no damage to Flak. That's why people advocate flak as the solution to LRMs, and why people are ignoring the reason LRMs are powerful. These tests that are performed are hardly useful at determining ANYTHING. They're just showing what we already knew statwise, and are NOT indicative of real game play.

LRMs are good because of high ff damage at long range. So do you target Flaks? No. Flaks have insanely high hp for their dps potential, they are short range, fast units.

You target everything except the flaks, then run away your LRMs. Even huge numbers of flaks cannot kill a capital ship (no joke).

For instance, if they have a mixed flak/light frigate/etc. army, kill all the light frigates/etc first, then attack the capital ship, running your lrms that get ffed.

Flaks, while having high hp, do not do great dps vs lrms (as you can clearly see in the replay). So, the two forces are very slowly grinding away at each other. So the long range ff unit should not be sitting there doing nothing with its dps. Just shoot at the capital ship, force it to run, then have YOUR capital ship destroy the flaks (which cannot damage it).

Fun fun.
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