Why would you need to put the lab on the roid?  Just send a colony frigate to take the roid, and send your capital ship to take the nearest ice/volcanic.  It won't be more than 30-second delay to put up your third civic lab, and then you just need to demolish your capital shipyard and you have a 3-jump trade route with no investment in logistics.  Heck, if you can do it, add a few disciples to mix to speed things up or even clear a third planet simultaneously. 

What I'm arguing is that you can get better returns by putting that money into disciples to quickly colonize more planets than you would if you put that money into trade ports.  The trade ports come immediately afterwards in my version, but I honestly think if you can spend the money elsewhere, it's probably a better investment this early in the game.

True, a good mix is a good idea.  I personally bring out disciples to clean up flaks, and they're good enough against siege frigates.  If there are LRF, though, scouts are definitely worth the investment. 

I presumed the turret trick was implied, as the only people left talking here appear to be multiplayer veterans.  I'd be shocked if any of us didn't know that trick by now.

Just take out the siege frigates and colonize.  Planetary militia doesn't attack buildings and construction frigates while your military units are present, so just start building up while you clean up the militia. 

Presuming a 2-rock planet (worst-case scenario), it costs me 1500 credits, 325 metal, and 200 crystal to colonize and build those two extractors (presuming no Akkan or Progen bonus).  This is about the same as the 1500 credits, 200 metal, 300 crystal to build two trade ports. 

On normal game speed (fast and fastest just increase these numbers by a scalar) an extractor earns 0.4 resource per second.  Presuming 90% loyalty, that's 0.36 per second.  That trade port without trade route grants 1 credit per second.  Even without counting tax income from the planet, we're comparing 0.72 resources per second against 2 credits per second, which greatly favours the extractors.  Bottom line is that even a 2-rock planet is more profitable than two trade ports without trade route, before we even consider the logistics and tax income benefits the planet offers.  Three rock and four rock planets are just out of the ballpark by comparison.

So really, you get your first trade ports up earlier, but because I colonized faster I get my trade route operational earlier, and the planet itself is just as profitable as those early trade ports anyways.  So yes, I do think that fast colonization is the better way to spend your starting cash than two trade ports without route.

Simply not true!  Yeah, you might get trade earlier, but so what - when there are better things to invest in!  How can tradeports that take "15 minutes" to pay for themselves be better than the first terran population upgrade that pays for itself in less than 10 minutes?  Just watch the replay for proof.  Me and Auqia have better total income throughout the duration, than you and your immediate 2 tradeports (see third chart down).  Better at 5 mins, better at 10, I start feeding at 11 min, you have to fleet up at 12, better at 15 minutes, 20....  And I don't even get tradeports until about 24 minutes in.  Then there's no comparison.

And what was your comment at the start of the replay:  "they don't seem to learn"?  

I watched SageWon's replay until about 40 mins in when Warfleet dropped, which seemed effectively the end of the game.  This is why I have so little time for 5s, even if you magically balance the teams with an equal skill level on both sides, which is infrequent, the wrong drop turns it into a walkover.

One team is DaKnife-Vasari, NME-Vasari, Auqia-Vasari, JonnyC321-Vasari and jammie85- TEC.  NME has the only eco slot, jammie85 is isolated, Auqia and Jonny have CCBoom between them, who is roided.

Warfleets team is Warfleet-TEC, KFear-TEC CCBoom-Advent, Roujheh-TEC, MR G-Vasari.  Theres no eco slot.  KFear has Jonny to one flank, Roujheh and Warfleet have jammie sandwiched.  MR G faces off against DaKnife.

The first fights are over the isolated players, CCBoom and jammie.  jammie has easily the better position with a dead-end terran off his homeworld and a volcanic separating him from Warfleet's roid.  CCBoom is in trouble as he can be choked by a volcanic right next to his home and Jonny can take the roid that he doesn't have a lane to.

CCBoom fights off Auqia who is being fed by NME, and takes a roid from him.  Jonny sends his fleet in to fight him back, leaving his home open to KFear.  KFear has two roids next to his home and another that Jonny has left in his rush to help Auqia- this last roid is right next to Jonny's home.  However KFear wastes the opportunity.  His biggest mistake is failing to take out Jonny's only factory- though he has bombers he sets them on the kanraks.  Then, having learned the hard way that his Sova wont make it out of the grav well from a planet bombing position, he contrives to lose a second Sova in the exact same manner and proceeds to withdraw and whine about how he shouldn't have attacked in the first place.  So CCBoom is sealed into his home.

WarFleet and Roujheh have a harder task but don't make a great job of it.  Warfleet loses his first cap leaving only one cap bombing the home- and Roujheh has left jammie's roid, and jammie still has the other terran, though Warfleet does prevent him from starbasing it.  However if you only have one cap perhaps you might want to take the other planets first, time is so important in the early stages.

Best player in the game for me was MR G, without any kind of feed he took the fight to DaKnife and drove him back.  NME had a huge income on 40 mins but was right next to DaKnife and would have been threatened and forced to fleet very shortly.  If you just concentrate on pure credit income, with an unbroken string of deserts roids and terrans then 40 mins is enough time to get a good eco.  However NME and DaKnife had left about six well-stocked neutrals in that area to MR G, which is one reason why he was able to push DaKnife back.  An eco spot who doesn't take the neutrals...???

If the point is to compare incomes, then Auqia got feed so we can rule him out.  Warfleet had a far poorer start, with volcanics around him compared to NME's long chain of deserts, terrans and roids.  Warfleet also had to try to take out jammie.  Yet it wasn't until 20-25 mins into the game that NME began to have clearly the stronger economy.  I'm undecided about Warfleet's strategy, I've always considered that Darvin hasn't enough time for early trade.  However it seems situational rather than prescriptive.  I wouldn't have gone for early trade here, when it was important to take jammie out.   I got the sense that both NME and Warfleet were watching how vast their income levels were, as well as the game.

Capital choices were all colony or carriers.  Shame to see the lone Advent roided and surrounded.  The skill level involved in Scramble Bombers autocast combined with Kanraks is just amazing- imagine playing 5s against almost an entire team of Vasari, the amazingness would be awesome.  I'll give it a miss. 

Watched the replay...DesConnor gave a pretty good summary, not much else to say...

I will agree with DesConnor though, Warfleet definitely should have stopped going eco and invested in ships to take Jammie out fast...

In my opinion, if Warfleet and Roujheh had built fleet over eco and rushed Jammie faster and harder, they could have split the two terran worlds and went back to playing eco the rest of the game while they sent the remnants of their fleets to the front lines...

Honestly, I think it was a mistake to feed CCBoom at all...he put up a good fight but there was no way he was going to last...those resources would have been better invested in taking out Jammie faster OR feeding Kfear so he could hit Johnny harder in the back while Johnny was hitting CCBoom...

After a few minutes with scouting, I think Warfleet and Roujheh should have realized the importance of taking out Jammie faster (2 terran worlds???)...time was of the essence, as CCBoom was a lost cause, and Warfleet's priority should have been wiping out Jammie before CCBoom was eliminated, NOT playing eco...

Given that Mr. G clearly could handle his own, had lots of uncolonizable asteroids, and more space than any other player (other than maybe NME), Warfleet and Roujheh should have dropped eco, let Mr. G play eco, and have Kfear fed so he could lay pressure on Johnny...even if Mr. G had gotten hit early, he had so many uncolonizables it wouldn't have mattered...by the time DaNife could have hit Mr. G, Warfleet should have been right there (because Jammie should have been out of the game by then)...

Judging from the game, I think it is clear Warfleet is good and knows what he was doing...but he was too focused on playing eco, and that was a HUGE tactical mistake...Jammie should have been gone 20 minutes into the game, yet at thirty minutes he still had 3 planets!?!?!

If TWO players are struggling to wipe out ONE player and neither are getting hit in the back, that is a clear sign you should NOT be playing eco...

Johnny and Auqia held back CCBoom despite the fact the Johnny was being hit in the back and CCBoom was being fed...I understand that CCBoom was in a crap position and Warfleet wasn't in the greatest shape for expanding early...but still, if Johnny and Auqia were holding down CCBoom, Warfleet and Roujheh should have at least taken Jammie's HW by then...

I am still not certain on this 2 trade port thing at the HW...assuming warfleet should have been playing eco, faster expansion would have helped more...there were 3 uncolonizable asteroids by warfleet that weren't even taken 30 minutes into the game....warfleet also didn't have the terran upgrades or resource upgrades researched...expanding faster, sending a colony ship up to those roids, and/or researching terran/resource upgrades would have been better than building 2 tradeports...and, any of those options would have cost a lot less...

Creds to CCBoom for putting up a good last stand, and creds to Mr. G for holding his own, playing very well, and not being arrogant about it....

Sorry, double post...forums here keep freezing up on me and I can never tell if I've posted or not....

Actually its triple post

Good call, I didn't even realize that...why do you forums keep freezing on me?!?!?

I agree...except that CCB had only a single terran world...Jammie had two terrans and an asteroid...even if CCBoom is a skilled player, he had only one planet, and was building a fleet based entirely off of feed...in that situation, the economic power of your team I think becomes more important than the skill of one player cornered with one planet...

The front with Kfear was definitely a major concern...to be honest, I think he would have gotten steamrolled no matter what....the difference between what happened and what I have suggested is this:

If warfleet militarized more and took out Jammie faster while giving less feed to CCBoom, I think you would have been in a better position economically and an equal position militarily (assuming jammie is out quick and you were fed) by the time DaKnife hit you...however, CCBoom would have not lasted as long and Kfear would have been hit earlier...basically, your front would have favored you more while Kfear would have likely been in more trouble...either decision comes with great risk, but that's part of the game...

After looking at the replay again (and paying more attention to feed, CCBoom, and Kfear), if your team had gone the route I have suggested, the military and economic edge you would have gained I think would have been overshadowed by Kfear being hit earlier and harder...looking at the game again, I will concede that the tactical ability of Kfear would have put your team at a huge disadvantage if he wasn't fed and CCBoom was not kept in longer...

Though I am still wishy washy on how Warfleet played his eco (not convinced 2 trade ports are best way to go), looking back again I can understand more why Warfleet did what he did...it's not what I would have done, but I'll admit Warfleet probably made the best call given the situation and lack of hindsight...

And another thing.

I'we got a feeling that what really bothers your guys is Warfleet ego and that he said that he is best advent eco player. Thats why you are dissecting every thing he says or do.... It all depends on situation and what you do with it... and sometimes you have bad day... 

Just yesterday i played 5s. 3skilled on each team. It was worst game i played recently. I knew i had one guy to attack but I went 2 civ labs first anyway. Sadly for me guy I had to kill was DT star player a guy I yet have to beat(I have never beaten him before - at least on his main account and I have around 500 games under my belt). Me and Higgy were doubling him and if I went mil from start we would have succeed. Higgy Had war on other side and even though he SB his hw he sacrificed it for us to kill Starr.

We or better said I failed big time and not only we didn't get his HW (which didn't have SB on) but I lost all my fleet and feed experience to 2 skirantras till they got lvl 6. I lost all my planets shortly after..... It was GG when I decided that I will build civ labs instead of mil. I was playing TEC. I guess I was hoping that I have noob to fight and once I embargo rush him and kill him I will be able to feed......

In game you were analyzing

In this game Jammie had 2 terans and roid which enabled him to prolong time of him living. If he had standard HW and roid like in most games he would have died much sooner. 

It really doesn't go into this thread but CCB is not star. I thought that as well but a few days ago they were both in one of games i played so NO hes not.

And BTW Jammie is DT smurf (well not really sure but he was in game DT vs rest - on DT side) but for some reason his performance from game to game varies a lot.

I'm not at all sure that you were at a disadvantage with regard to neutrals.  After all, you do have four Vasari to one, and your team has the only true eco spot, yours.  If I had seen MR G with that many neutrals I would have wondered what was going on.  KFear as TEC had a neutral next to the star... 

MR G passed several of his scouts through the pirates to get to neutrals on the other side of the star, and even took neutrals that were beyond the pirates, beyond the star and next to planets occupied by you, and he was fighting at the same time... Getting a few Vasari scouts past pirates is not a difficult matter.  One of yours was past the pirates but was destroyed by militia, which happens to everyone- but the point is that a pack of six or more scouts was called for by the situation.  Every neutral a player takes also denies one to the enemy.

It just becomes clear that Vasari have a vast advantage in this version when four of them are prepared to concede neutrals in this fashion.  MR G has to fleet, has no feed and has to try to push back another player.  Perhaps he could have walled off DaKnife and fought you both 1-to-2 as he suggests, but that would be entirely reliant on his far superior play on the neutrals.   

wth Des?  What did I do to deserve this?  r u secretly a SmashBros, or just hate Vasari that much?  LOL.  If you want to pick apart the replay, I am sure you can find many more mistakes.  For example, I did a terrible job of micro... but I just didn't have the time, and didn't care.  I already agreed that Mr G did an awesome job.  I'm not sure why you think its the eco slot's job to grab neutrals?  I think its better for front line players with adequate fleet to get & hold them, rather than try to feed them that too and incur a tax penalty.