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Release of Starcraft 2 seems to have dramatically decreased Sins activity :-(

By on July 30, 2010 7:21:41 PM from Sins of a Solar Empire Forums Sins of a Solar Empire Forums

DirtySanchezz

Join Date 03/2008
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I am sad to report that the release of Starcraft 2 seems to have reduced Sins online player counts by about 40%, as predicted.  A small group of fiercly loyal Sins fans continues to play 5v5s on Diplomacy, though.  Hopefully some former regulars will tire of the clickfest and long for a non-clickfest RTS.

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July 30, 2010 7:30:43 PM from Sins of a Solar Empire Forums Sins of a Solar Empire Forums

I wasn't on SINS for past week but i will definitely return. 

And No i wasn't playing starcraft just some RL caught up.....

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July 30, 2010 9:11:50 PM from Sins of a Solar Empire Forums Sins of a Solar Empire Forums

Whip, don't worry, I'm still on Sins, just a little less now.  Busy with the family.

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July 31, 2010 5:47:35 AM from Sins of a Solar Empire Forums Sins of a Solar Empire Forums

SC2 is much less of a clickfest than SC1. Everyone who thinks you need to click five times a second and that this is all what the game is about should take a novalith in his face.

SC2 has two major advantages over Sins in my eyes:

1. It is balanced. NOW.
Maybe not 100% balanced, it cannot be when you've got three COMPLETELY different races, but sins compared to sc2 is about as balanced as rock-paper-shotgun. Sorry.

2. It takes 15-25 minutes for a match, 40 minutes in extreme situations.
I am not a lifeless nerd without a family to be able to spend 2-3 hours straight on a multiplayer game every time I wanna play or actually have some time for it. Not saying it's something unbelievably bad, it's just the way Soase is done, but it just doesn't work for me. For the same reason I don't play WoW - I liked it, smacking a few gay elfs now and then with my hammer and magic helmet, but then you come to a point when you have to go for a 3 hour no-pause-allowed raid to BT or whatever and that's where I'm off.

And that's basically what makes me show up as WhoTheHell.113 in SC2 more often than N3rull in Soase

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July 31, 2010 9:14:01 AM from Sins of a Solar Empire Forums Sins of a Solar Empire Forums

Quoting N3rull,
SC2 is much less of a clickfest than SC1. Everyone who thinks you need to click five times a second and that this is all what the game is about should take a novalith in his face.

SC2 has two major advantages over Sins in my eyes:

1. It is balanced. NOW.
Maybe not 100% balanced, it cannot be when you've got three COMPLETELY different races, but sins compared to sc2 is about as balanced as rock-paper-shotgun. Sorry.

2. It takes 15-25 minutes for a match, 40 minutes in extreme situations.
I am not a lifeless nerd without a family to be able to spend 2-3 hours straight on a multiplayer game every time I wanna play or actually have some time for it. Not saying it's something unbelievably bad, it's just the way Soase is done, but it just doesn't work for me. For the same reason I don't play WoW - I liked it, smacking a few gay elfs now and then with my hammer and magic helmet, but then you come to a point when you have to go for a 3 hour no-pause-allowed raid to BT or whatever and that's where I'm off.

And that's basically what makes me show up as WhoTheHell.113 in SC2 more often than N3rull in Soase

 

Sins has many advantages over SC2 Most important is : in sins u must think fast, in sc2 u must klick fast.

Unfortunately peeps dont want to think while playing, they are looking for disstraction, fast clicking short matches.

dont cry about balance its quite ok everything can be coutered.

Sins is special. in sins skill>numbers, thats y it will never  have high player base.

So enjoi what u have

 

But dont worry all unfaitfull players will return as soon as their fingers will grow tired of clicking or lmb will die

 

PS im still here to smurf your ass:)

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July 31, 2010 1:06:07 PM from Sins of a Solar Empire Forums Sins of a Solar Empire Forums

Quoting N3rull,
SC2 is much less of a clickfest than SC1. Everyone who thinks you need to click five times a second and that this is all what the game is about should take a novalith in his face.

I bought the SC Battlechest last year in November and just couldn't get into it nor understand how people play it online at the fastest speeds.  You make it sound like they're improved the controls for SC2.  Can you group and control more than 12 units at a time now?  Can you easily set your own keybinds for things?

What do you think of the new BNet and its player skill matching function?

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July 31, 2010 6:00:06 PM from Sins of a Solar Empire Forums Sins of a Solar Empire Forums

While those questions weren't adressed to me I'll go ahead and answer them:

You can freely customize your hotkeys and there are various precustomized sets already like grid, grid for lefties, standard etc. 

Controlgroup size is no longer limited, so feel free to group up as many as you want.

The skill matching is...okay. Not everyone is where he belongs to and since the game's supposed to be up asap you often get grouped up with someone from a higher/lower league, but since that's not necessarily related to his/her skill that's not too bad. And what I personally LOVE: no smurfs. None. None at all. 1 Character per Account, period. It brought a tear to my eye. 

The one thing that sucks majorly is that crossrealm isn't supported (yet) because it's not possible with today's technology (a quote from an interview, made me laugh hard).  Hopefully they'll fix that soon enough.

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July 31, 2010 7:43:45 PM from Sins of a Solar Empire Forums Sins of a Solar Empire Forums

nor understand how people play it online at the fastest speeds

Start on normal speed.  Up the speed setting one notch.  Get comfortable with that, and up the speed setting one notch.  Rinse and repeat until you're on the highest setting.

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August 1, 2010 10:22:48 PM from Sins of a Solar Empire Forums Sins of a Solar Empire Forums

I was in the SC2 beta.

I preferred sins over SC2 simply for the slower past in sins witch means they was a better chance of epic battles.

In SC2 is mostly a 1 tactic per game. You set one battle plan form the start and it will either work or will not depending if you have read your opponent right and he has not read you right. Mostly by the time you find out what your enemy is doing in SC2 you need to already be countering while in sins you have time to setup a counter.

Not to mention the econ in SC2 is so fast.

in general my main complaint about SC2 is the speed of it. Just to fast to actually enjoy a good well thought out battle.

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August 1, 2010 11:49:31 PM from Sins of a Solar Empire Forums Sins of a Solar Empire Forums

People will leave for a quick fad but always return to the classics.

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August 2, 2010 12:25:11 AM from Sins of a Solar Empire Forums Sins of a Solar Empire Forums

Quoting myfist0,
People will leave for a quick fad but always return to the classics.

People are still playing the original Unreal Tournament (1999).  I've been a member of the capture-the-flag (pro) pug match community for years and I've seen numerous people leave for a couple months or a year or only to later return to play the greatest online multiplayer FPS of all time again.  I'm kind of making my own return on public servers now after not having really played it much since I got into Sins back in March 2008.  (I have been playing UT 2004 though.)

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August 2, 2010 11:02:22 AM from Sins of a Solar Empire Forums Sins of a Solar Empire Forums

Not really surprising, SC2 lowered the activity of every online PC game.  While some people will go back to their older games after the newness wears off, the thing is there needs to be something to return to.  Without a major patch, there isn't a lot of reason to come back to multiplayer Sins IMO.  The game is too imbalanced and stagnant.  Regardless of whether you like SC2 fast pace or not, the superior balance and community size (can't play Sins if there's nobody to play against) of SC2 means Sins, at least through ICO, is probably at its end.

And it's not a big deal, all games come and go over time.  I mean Warcraft 2 is a classic RTS, but does anyone still play it online?  Sins had a better run than most, and will live on in single player and TCP/IP with friends.  But ICO play was kind of doomed from day 1.

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August 2, 2010 11:26:06 AM from Sins of a Solar Empire Forums Sins of a Solar Empire Forums

I'm already starting to get tired of it after just a couple days.  I am learning to play Terran, and it seems like almost all of my time in this game is spent building structures and queuing up units--it's a game of trying to spam out all these sturctures and units ASAP, and I'm not very good at that compared to the other players.  It's getting repetitive and boring, quickly.

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August 2, 2010 12:26:14 PM from Sins of a Solar Empire Forums Sins of a Solar Empire Forums

I mean Warcraft 2 is a classic RTS, but does anyone still play it online?

Actually...

http://server.war2.ru/modules/news/

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August 3, 2010 12:52:13 PM from Sins of a Solar Empire Forums Sins of a Solar Empire Forums

I am sad to report that the release of Starcraft 2 seems to have reduced Sins online player counts by about 40%, as predicted.

You mean there was still a significant number of people playing Sins?  Shocks me.

Hopefully some former regulars will tire of the clickfest and long for a non-clickfest RTS.

Don't be deceived.  Sins, as played online, has always been a clickfest.  In fact, I have found that people exploit micro to death in Sins much more than they do in SC2 (being kited like there's no tomorrow and largely not being able to counter it, or my favorite, "phase jump hopscotch" where the asshole's capship jumps away, I jump to follow only to find he's jumped back, so I jump back again only to find that he's jumped back - NICE! - meanwhile his fleet has been beating on my units the entire time, etc.).  There's some micro and kiting people do in SC2, but it's far, far less irritating, and far more understandable and counterable.  But for the most part, I've found that people just line their armies up and fight it out without all the goofiness and cheese of the "skilled" (cough) with their beloved micro tricks.  In SC2, at least I know I'll never see a dude with a handful of units beat a hundred other units using his micro and "skill."  I did see that in Sins.

And at least with the clickfest of SC2, I understand what my clicks are actually doing a hell of a lot more than I ever did in the clickfest of Sins.  Try as I might, I just could never play Sins at the pro level.  I just couldn't understand the game well enough fundamentally.  I'm not even sure if the devs themselves understand the game.  But what's so hard to understand about what a zergling does, what it counters, and what counters it?

1. It is balanced. NOW.

Absolutely not.  The terran are as OP as they were in the beta, and there are other glaring issues.  Having said that, it's probably a lot more balanced coming right out of the box than Sins is after a couple of years.

I have also yet to see a post on the SC2 forums with 1% of the vitriol that has been regularly thrown around here since this game's inception.  I have certainly never encountered the ultra-assholish behavior playing online with SC2 that I saw on a daily basis with Sins.  The worst I've seen in SC2, after hundreds of online games and months in the beta, was a guy call a guy a "towel" (which apparently meant "tampon" if I got the context right).  And I've never seen an assholish clique of guys boot other players.

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August 3, 2010 2:35:12 PM from Sins of a Solar Empire Forums Sins of a Solar Empire Forums

I'm not even sure if the devs themselves understand the game.

 

That's what happens when you don't encourage a strong competitive community in any sort of game.  Data from high level players is the best way to see what units and techs are overused/underused, race win %, what sorts of maps layouts players prefer, etc.  Without that data, the devs are just making changes blind.  And blind balance changes seems to have been the trend for Sins, seeing as the game has always been a one strategy wonder in multiplayer.  People can argue that the community HAS been desperately telling the devs about balance problems, but when that amounts to less than a dozen or so forum goers why should the devs put any real priority into that?

The second expansion pack more or less confirmed that the devs don't give a shit what the multiplayer part of the community wanted.  Actually, it more or less confirmed that the devs didn't give a shit about what ANYONE wanted, seeing as none the envoy abilities did much and the pirates were actually made a worse feature than before.

There is one way the game will live on at this point, and that is mods.  Once the good modders pack up, then it is time to retire Sins for good.

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August 3, 2010 5:32:43 PM from Sins of a Solar Empire Forums Sins of a Solar Empire Forums

Quoting lbgsloan,
There is one way the game will live on at this point, and that is mods.  Once the good modders pack up, then it is time to retire Sins for good.

Sadly, Sins doesn't have auto-download for custom maps and mods.  Maybe what this game really needs is for single player mod fans to tire of the AI and come online in mass, hoping to play mods.

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August 3, 2010 9:47:33 PM from Sins of a Solar Empire Forums Sins of a Solar Empire Forums

If we had a download system for multiplayer maps/mods, plus maybe a little scripting for our maps, Sins could be truly awe-inspiring.

Gotta say, on the topic of custom maps and mods, SC2 really dropped the ball there on release.

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August 3, 2010 10:36:02 PM from Stardock Forums Stardock Forums

Quoting ,
I am sad to report that the release of Starcraft 2 seems to have reduced Sins online player counts by about 40%, as predicted.  A small group of fiercly loyal Sins fans continues to play 5v5s on Diplomacy, though.  Hopefully some former regulars will tire of the clickfest and long for a non-clickfest RTS.

My brother went out and bought SC2, only to be back playing Sins an hour later

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August 8, 2010 5:49:20 PM from Sins of a Solar Empire Forums Sins of a Solar Empire Forums

Sins has many advantages over SC2 Most important is : in sins u must think fast, in sc2 u must klick fast.
Bull.... .
Fast clicking alone in SC2 won't win you any more than LRF spamming would win you in Sins.
And thinking? Trust me, there is just as much thinking in SC2 as there is in sins, if not more. For example, do you (in sins) time your research with your attacks so that you can fool your enemy into thinking that your ships are weak, just to give him a big surprise when a research finishes as the battle starts and you kick your enemy's butt thanks to it? I'd like to hear about it. Well, in SC2 that is called a timing push and every good player utilizes that sort of stuff a dozen times per game.

A typical argument of a die-hard fanboy who crosses out anything else without even trying to understand it.

I was in the SC2 beta.

I preferred sins over SC2 simply for the slower past in sins witch means they was a better chance of epic battles.

In SC2 is mostly a 1 tactic per game. You set one battle plan form the start and it will either work or will not depending if you have read your opponent right and he has not read you right. Mostly by the time you find out what your enemy is doing in SC2 you need to already be countering while in sins you have time to setup a counter.

Not to mention the econ in SC2 is so fast.

in general my main complaint about SC2 is the speed of it. Just to fast to actually enjoy a good well thought out battle.
That's a sensible post. It is true that in SC2 battles are on a smaller scale and things happen faster. That's just a feature of the game - as I said (post #3), I haven't got enough time to play sins online. I just have to much "real" in my "life". Good for you if you can waste days or nights on sins games; I can't.
Only thing that is incorrect is: " SC2 is mostly one tactic per game" -- true, but only until you learn to scout. If you don't scout well, you're gonna end up with a blob of marines against a banelisng bust or with a bunch of stalkers against a double upped marauder ball (i.e. you're gonna fail utterly). When you learn to scout, you will see what the enemy does and learn to counter.
It all comes down to a very deep strategic game once you get it all going. That's exactly how it goes in sins.

People will leave for a quick fad but always return to the classics.
"quick fad" and "classic" are not set in stone. There had been more classic classics once and what you call classic now was called "quick fad" back then.

I'm already starting to get tired of it after just a couple days. I am learning to play Terran, and it seems like almost all of my time in this game is spent building structures and queuing up units--it's a game of trying to spam out all these sturctures and units ASAP, and I'm not very good at that compared to the other players. It's getting repetitive and boring, quickly.
The very same thing happens when you start playing sins. Colonize + spam LRFs or Carriers. Only after some time, you actually start noticing those tricky things you can do ; it's exactly the same in SC2. You start it for the first time and think it's all about spamming... you said terran?... marauders and marines. Until you start meeting clever players and need to start using tactics.

My brother went out and bought SC2, only to be back playing Sins an hour later

In that case, he hadn't even tried.

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August 9, 2010 11:37:47 AM from Sins of a Solar Empire Forums Sins of a Solar Empire Forums

I understand what you're saying about Starcraft having a deeper strategy and about how it's hard to appreciate it until you've become a veteran player and studied the game, just like Sins.  But how the hell are you supposed to be able to do something like scout when almost all of your time has to be spent clicking on your SCVs and telling them to build supply depots and then clicking on the barracks and ordering up marines, etc.  Maybe it wouldn't be so bad if people would play the game online at slower speeds.  Where do you find the time to control and order scout units around?  My impression of Starcraft is that it has strategy, but it's hard to ever be able to really think about the strategy since you are constantly rapid-clicking to build structures and units.  Obviously many players are able to do it, but I quickly lost interest.  Perhaps part of the fun of the game is that it becomes a contest of who can click and issue the orders fastest.

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August 9, 2010 12:00:05 PM from Sins of a Solar Empire Forums Sins of a Solar Empire Forums

I played SC2 only against AI so far and i must say that it really gets boring after a while. 

Another think I don't like is that units die way to fast and eve before it takes position you want ..... most of the time is dead before it gets there. So it comes to

  1. fortify position 
  2. go 2 meters forward 
  3. repeat step 1

So there is no microing in game and no sense of strategy other than get into position with bigger force or better units. And yes click fast to select unit... And another thing i don't like is that units tend to bump into each other way too much. Yes it happens in SINS as well but you can use 3rd dimension.....

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August 9, 2010 3:30:36 PM from Sins of a Solar Empire Forums Sins of a Solar Empire Forums

I understand what you're saying about Starcraft having a deeper strategy and about how it's hard to appreciate it until you've become a veteran player and studied the game, just like Sins. 
Yeah.

  But how the hell are you supposed to be able to do something like scout when almost all of your time has to be spent clicking on your SCVs and telling them to build supply depots and then clicking on the barracks and ordering up marines, etc. (.....)
Watch this http://day9tv.blip.tv/file/3732340/ . This video shows how to do all the stuff that seems problematic for you without even noticing that you're doing it.

You have to understand that Starcraft is made to be a competitive game, meant for tournaments. It is meant to be dynamic. However, it is no longer a clickfest like SC1 was! There is so much improvement over SC1, you just need to grasp the basics of them - multi-building selection, tabbing through groups, smartcasting, multi-casting (how to make 3 selected high templars cast 3 storms in 3 different spots -> hold the hotkey for storm, T, and click the three places. This also works for building...). Spend half an hour on learning those and you will find that you have a lot of spare time to do things other than babysitting your base.

I played SC2 only against AI so far and i must say that it really gets boring after a while.
I wonder what Sanchezz above could tell you about playing against the AI in sins...

Another think I don't like is that units die way to fast and eve before it takes position you want ..... most of the time is dead before it gets there.
If your units die so fast, you are likely doing one of below:
- attacking a fortified position up front, which is stupid in itself even in Sins. Find something else to attack? An expansion? Or try dropping stuff in the other guy's backyard?
- trying to attack a unit that counters your units. Attacking hellions, reapers or banelings with zealots, zerglings or marines; attacking Immortals with tanks; attacking marauders with Stalkers..... and all such attempts are asking to get your ass whopped, because you are trying to use unit A against a unit that counters unit A. It's like trying to fight LRFs with LFs in Sins. Everyone knows how that ends.
- not using the Attack Move. In Starcraft, for many reasons, units that are just told to Right-click somewhere will go there first and shoot later (unless they can shoot on the move, like the Phoenix). If you want to tell your units to attacks everything on the way, you need to select Attack and then click somewhere.

So it comes to

fortify position

go 2 meters forward

repeat step 1

So there is no microing in game and no sense of strategy other than get into position with bigger force or better units. And yes click fast to select unit...
heaps of bulls|-|it. That's exactly what noobs think about sins: they think it's all about making starbases everywhere and then dropping starbases onto enemy planets, cause the AI outproduces them easily and they are getting outnumbered from the very first minutes. Everybody knows that's foolish and what you've said is foolish just as well.
Go to youtube, type HDH Invitational and watch any of the commentaries. There is no such crap going on in those games and trust me, any of these guys playing there could own you in more ways than you could imagine possible.

As for clicking fast to select units, just use control groups and the TAB key.

And another thing i don't like is that units tend to bump into each other way too much. Yes it happens in SINS as well but you can use 3rd dimension.....
In SC2, if something bumbs into something else, those units step away and around each other. The only situations when a unit won't let another unit pass is when it is a] in combat or b] on hold position. In case of b] , it is just doing what it's told. In case of a]... that's where you should employ micro dude. Yes, that thing you think does not exist, that's where you should use it.

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August 9, 2010 4:07:53 PM from Sins of a Solar Empire Forums Sins of a Solar Empire Forums

One thing for sure Ironclad CANNOT make SINS 2 without a Peir2Peir download system.

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August 9, 2010 6:58:32 PM from Sins of a Solar Empire Forums Sins of a Solar Empire Forums

I launched SC2 multiplayer for the first time since the beta (I was busy with the campaign before now, curious what comes out) and noticed something interesting.

There are 50 (!!) practice matches available. That means that any of you can play 50 automatches on normal speed and no-rush maps (at least two destructible rocks block the way, meaning only a fast reaper can harm you in the rush department). By that time you should be pretty handy with the game and ready to step into normal ladder; or if you are not ready, you can always play custom games on normal speed (select create custom game, select map, click create game, choose speed 'normal' to the right and click 'open to public'). There are roughly 25-40 thousand games being played at any time on Bnet, so someone should come and take a looksey into your game. In the worst case you can start a coop against an AI and see how your teammate plays.

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August 9, 2010 8:10:44 PM from Sins of a Solar Empire Forums Sins of a Solar Empire Forums

N3rull, thanks for the link.  Does SC2 have a good "game browser filter"?  With thousands of games available it seems like it would need a filter with numerous options people could check off.  Ideally I'd want to be able to select every option that I would want in a game--map, number of players, speed, races allowed, size of maps, pings, etc.

EadTeas--from what little I've read about Elemental, it sounds like they're going to vet custom content and allow people to download the good content via Impulse with people also being allowed to download non-vetted content (whatever they want) for manual installation.  I think with Sins they didn't like the idea of people being able to trick other people into auto-downloading files with viruses.

N3rull--regarding people who play single player, my view is pretty much the same for Starcraft and other games that allow for online multiplayer--you can have a more challenging and ultimately more dynamic and interesting experience in online multiplayer.  I don't have anything against people who play Sins in single player; but I think they're missing out on many aspects of the game and that anyone who only plays single player is wrong to ever think that he is a skilled player.

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