Suggestion for balance for next patch » Forum Post by JohnJames

Somehow, I kinda doubt they'll go the frequent route. Not to mention that if they really fixed every UP and OP thing in the game, it'd take a whole other year.

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There's a lot that could potentially be done with the random map generator, and "random symmetric" is not the only thing to consider. Personally, I'd be happy if we just got a 100% assurance that we will always have a roid and an ice/volcanic connected to our homeworld. One-lane and no-roid starts are by far the most common map-screw, so much so that in a 5v5 it's almost a forgone conclusion that at least one person will be affected in this manner. It won't fix map-screws or inequality entirely, but it will deal with the most common cases.

Personally, as far as capital ships go, I'd rather see a buff to the other classes of capital ships. I feel carriers (with the exception of the Skirantra) are about right in terms of power, and the problem more lies in the other capital ships being too weak in their respective roles, particularly late-game where a front-line role for a capital ship is borderline suicide.

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Quoting Kitkun,

reply 1

Somehow, I kinda doubt they'll go the frequent route. Not to mention that if they really fixed every UP and OP thing in the game, it'd take a whole other year.

Initially that was one of the main point of releasing updates via impulse. I suspect due to the problems of their other games and the developers limited resources, sose was push down in the priority level.

Quoting Darvin3,

reply 2

There's a lot that could potentially be done with the random map generator, and "random symmetric" is not the only thing to consider. Personally, I'd be happy if we just got a 100% assurance that we will always have a roid and an ice/volcanic connected to our homeworld. One-lane and no-roid starts are by far the most common map-screw, so much so that in a 5v5 it's almost a forgone conclusion that at least one person will be affected in this manner. It won't fix map-screws or inequality entirely, but it will deal with the most common cases.

Personally, as far as capital ships go, I'd rather see a buff to the other classes of capital ships. I feel carriers (with the exception of the Skirantra) are about right in terms of power, and the problem more lies in the other capital ships being too weak in their respective roles, particularly late-game where a front-line role for a capital ship is borderline suicide.

If they make the maps symmetrical then both teams would equally be at a disadvantaged. If one side has more neutrals or better planets then that team will have far greater advantage then 1 teammate not having an asteroid or just 1 phase lane.

If you dont nerf all capital carriers then you will still continue see the other two race field multiple carrier caps. By nerfing all carriers you boost other types of capital ships, but other rarely used caps will still need a further adjustments to be seen as a viable capital ship opener.

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Personally, as far as capital ships go, I'd rather see a buff to the other classes of capital ships. I feel carriers (with the exception of the Skirantra) are about right in terms of power, and the problem more lies in the other capital ships being too weak in their respective roles, particularly late-game where a front-line role for a capital ship is borderline suicide.

Personally I generally agree with this.

If they make the maps symmetrical then both teams would equally be at a disadvantaged. If one side has more neutrals or better planets then that team will have far greater advantage then 1 teammate not having an asteroid or just 1 phase lane.

Start positions are random so could end up that on one team 2 of the players started with the bugged start seriously gimping that team.Make starting positions pickable and the map seen before start then this could work very well.

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Personally, as far as capital ships go, I'd rather see a buff to the other classes of capital ships. I feel carriers (with the exception of the Skirantra) are about right in terms of power, and the problem more lies in the other capital ships being too weak in their respective roles, particularly late-game where a front-line role for a capital ship is borderline suicide.

I actually think Carrier Caps are a bit too good. There is a pretty strong argument when making a diverse fleet to use Carrier Caps to completely fulfill the strikecraft role and not make any carrier cruisers. If you get to end game, of course you will have both Carrier Caps and a crap load of carriers as well.

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Quoting MindsEye,

reply 4

Start positions are random so could end up that on one team 2 of the players started with the bugged start seriously gimping that team.Make starting positions pickable and the map seen before start then this could work very well.

Symmetrical among the teams so its balance. If your teammate has a bugged start then so would the other team.

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I actually think Carrier Caps are a bit too good. There is a pretty strong argument when making a diverse fleet to use Carrier Caps to completely fulfill the strikecraft role and not make any carrier cruisers. If you get to end game, of course you will have both Carrier Caps and a crap load of carriers as well.

Yes but the cost of getting all caps is extremely expensive.Maybe they could be reverted but a small buff to that.Like instead of adding just 1 sc per squad for the hally maybe 2.Making them use am could work but adding penalty to the haly because it has more passive abilities does not seem fair at all.

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If you dont nerf all capital carriers then you will still continue see the other two race field multiple carrier caps. By nerfing all carriers you boost other types of capital ships, but other rarely used caps will still need a further adjustments to be seen as a viable capital ship opener.

I think the key is to give the other capital ships a strong role that lets them compete with the strength of carrier capital ships. I think we're both on the same page in one respect; we want the carriers to be on the same relative strength as the other capital ships. You want to do this by weakening the carriers, I want to do this by strengthening everything else.

One approach that was tested in a mod back in the summer was increasing all capital ship move speeds... except the carriers. This allowed other capital ships to successfully catch up to kiting carriers while allowing them more leeway to disengage from dangerous situations. It went a long way to improving other capital ship classes without actually increasing their raw power. These are the kinds of changes that need to be explored, in my opinion.

I actually think Carrier Caps are a bit too good. There is a pretty strong argument when making a diverse fleet to use Carrier Caps to completely fulfill the strikecraft role and not make any carrier cruisers. If you get to end game, of course you will have both Carrier Caps and a crap load of carriers as well.

I think that in the mid-late game, carrier caps are fine in this regard and are used to complement rather than replace carrier cruisers. The problem is more early-game when they fulfill all your strike craft needs and allow you to skip over the carrier cruiser unit entirely. carrier cruisers are too easy to pick off and their antimatter issues are glaring in battles drawn out by repair-power.

It's ironic that I opposed the extra squad buff that carriers got back in 1.18, but have grown to embrace it and now argue against a revert. I like the newfound strength of the carrier and I want to see it extended to the other four capital ship classes.

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Increasing capital ship speed is easy to adjust and test. I would recommend to include colony capital ships that dont get the speed increase. I would like to see a capital ship type (doesnt have to be the same for all race) go toe to toe to counter carrier caps, gain added abilities to specifically deal with sc.

like

Dunov: Modify magnetized to also destroy or weaken all sc on a host carrier or capital ship

Revelation: Modify Reverie to also destroy or weaken all sc on a host carrier or capital ship

Marauder: Modify Phase Hull to also destroy or weaken all sc on a host carrier or capital ship

These capital ship are rarely seen online. Their anti sc ability will be more efficient at targeting carrier caps vs carrier cruisers. Their new abilities dont have area of effect abilities against SC like flak burst, jam weapons and tek push but target one specific ship.

With the added speed this capital ship can catch and immediately affect carrier caps without being destroyed before doing so.

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Increasing capital ship speed is easy to adjust and test.

We did test this over the summer in the "Project Equilibrium" mod, and I quite liked the results. The speeds we ended up using were:

Battleships: 600
Support: 575
Siege: 550
Colony: 550
Carrier: 525

For those unfamiliar with these values, most capital ships have a move speed of 525 currently, while colony capital ships have a move speed of 475. The LRF-type unit has a move speed of 500.

I would recommend to include colony capital ships that dont get the speed increase.

Frankly, I quite dislike their sluggish move speed. These capital ships are so ludicrously vulnerable that sending them into a major battle without an ace up your sleeve (like Armistice or Repulsion) is pretty well a death sentence. Considering that the Akkan isn't much of a fighter to begin with, the Jarrasul doesn't scale well into the late game and is no longer a killer opener, and the Progenitor's best ability is channeling (it must stand still) I don't see this as a huge deal and it greatly reduces the annoyance factor of these caps.

Revelation: Modify Reverie to also destroy or weaken all sc on a host carrier or capital ship

As much as the Revelation could use help, its Reverie ability is already its awesome saving grace and I would be hesitant to buff it. It's the everything else about this capital ship that needs help.

Giving all support capital ships a single-target carrier trump sounds like an interesting approach to make them a more viable opener.

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I suggested the Revelation due to Rapture being a direct support for SC and Reverie is the only offensive target ability

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Perhaps another suggestion for more diverse cap opener would be to completely disable planet bombing ability for carriers and greatly reduce for colonizer cap. I think colonizer cap should be fast but lightly armed ship. So it could get out of fights but on its own it wouldn't be a force that could destroy a planet. Support ships should be in the middle.

I would assume that for bombing planet you need a big gun which I don't see it happening to be mounted on carrier ships. Support ships might have medium guns while battleships and specialized siege ships carry one as a must.

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I dont think devs will revamp caps.At best we could ask for tweaks to whats already there and hope they will use some of them.For a few suggestions:

Increase aoe for anti sc abilities

Nerf deployment rate of scramble bombers(and total amount fieldable to be comparable to others)

Buff guass rail gun to do some sort of damage

Progen needs a small buff in some way

Revelation needs some buffing

Dunov needs to heal itself

Emp dunov range increase(semi counter to subs)

Maybe a small buff to magnetize

Antorak needs some small buffing

Vulkuras needs some small buffing

Radiance needs some buffing

Speed tweaks would be nice

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I also think the other Cap ships should be given a strong role, rather than nerfing the Carrier Caps harshly. Since the main buff to Carrier Caps was starting with 1 more squad (3 vs 2 b4), I've suggested adding one more starting squad to all of the other Cap ships (maybe not to Colony Caps). That alone should return them to equal footing.

While I don't completely disagree with changing speeds, I am hesitant to give Colony Caps more speed. I've had my fair share of chasing Akkans across whole galaxies, while they colonize every planet they go through.

BTW, Greg, Carrier Caps already have the worst seiging stats. Yes, Minds, in particular the Support Caps need additional buffs.

(Specificly a slight nerf of Skirantra Scramble Bombers from current).

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PLEASE do not ever change anything about random maps....its the main reason i love this game so much

yes sometimes the map heavily favors the opponent, to which i say GET OVER IT lol

this is what makes sins great

NERF scramble bombers, tho just a bit i dont want to see the skirantra go from overpowered to useless

the sova, dunov, akkan, marza, halycon, progen, evacuator are all fine but all the other caps save the skirantra need a slight buff. I STRESS THE WORD SLIGHT!

i personally think that all heavy cruisers also need a slight buff

maybe remove the AM penalty for jumping or reduce it, i never really understood the point of this since no AM is required to jump but you lose it if you have it

mindseye: magnetize works excelent as is any buff and it could become OP, just ask dirtysanchez

maybe reduce the speed of all caps or just carrier caps to prevent kiting carrier caps

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mindseye: magnetize works excelent as is any buff and it could become OP, just ask dirtysanchez

Maybe early game but ability doesnt scale into mid or late game at all.It needs to affect more sc as it levels.

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ZombiesRus5

Join Date 02/2009

+340

I would love to see Revelation's Provoke Hysteria moved and adjusted to be a 1/3/5 available siege ability. Then switch it's Guidance ability to level 6 ultimate and add AM regeneration. I know it won't happen and I'm not the first to suggest it, but the ship is fairly boring as it stands now.

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I would love to see Revelation's Provoke Hysteria moved and adjusted to be a 1/3/5 available siege ability.

Reworking hysteria as a 1/3/5 skill, dumping guidance, and creating an entirely new "ultimate" ability for the Revelation would be the preferred way to go. Doubt it will happen, though.

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ZombiesRus5

Join Date 02/2009

+340

orking hysteria as a 1/3/5 skill, dumping guidance, and creating an entirely new "ultimate" ability for the Revelation would be the preferred way to go. Doubt it will happen, though.

Sounds good too but probably more unlikely to get an entirely new ability but one can dream.

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Quoting Derek06,

reply 15

PLEASE do not ever change anything about random maps....its the main reason i love this game so much

yes sometimes the map heavily favors the opponent, to which i say GET OVER IT lol

this is what makes sins great

Why cant we have both? easy option to add.

maybe remove the AM penalty for jumping or reduce it, i never really understood the point of this since no AM is required to jump but you lose it if you have it

Ha! This is one of the main advantages of being on the defence.... and most importantly... it drains carrier cruiser antimatter like nothing else... it is practicly the only weakness of bomber spamming.

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Unfortunately however the worst bomber spamming offender is the skirantra which is only AM dependant for bombers due to an ability(fairly cheap one at that). Carrier cruisers are not particularly the problem here.

[_]-Greyfox

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Quoting Greyfox2,

reply 21

Unfortunately however the worst bomber spamming offender is the skirantra which is only AM dependant for bombers due to an ability(fairly cheap one at that). Carrier cruisers are not particularly the problem here.

[_]-Greyfox

Skirantra maybe the worst but all carrier caps are currently superior to all other caps and makes picking a non carrier cap opener an up hill battle

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slightly nerf the skirantra

then slightly buff all the other non carrier caps

SLIGHTLY

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Quoting JohnJames,

reply 22

Skirantra maybe the worst but all carrier caps are currently superior to all other caps and makes picking a non carrier cap opener an up hill battle

I completely agree. I have long said that carrier caps didn't need buffed to begin with.

[_]-Greyfox

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Quoting Greyfox2,

reply 24

I have long said that carrier caps didn't need buffed to begin with.

[_]-Greyfox

Yes they did! They were pitiful before. People only started with Colony Caps, or an occasional Marza. It didn't even make sense to build 2 Caps. You just happen to like starting with the Progenitor most, so you long for the good ole days. ; )

But it is also true, that Carrier Caps were buffed too much, and now it doesn't hardly make sense to use the others except for maybe Colony Caps in some situations.

Quoting Derek06,

reply 23

slightly nerf the skirantra

then slightly buff all the other non carrier caps

SLIGHTLY

I would agree, to only slightly nerf the skirantra. Changing Scramble Bomber's cooldown to 40 or 60 seconds from the current 35 seconds means it essentially spawns the same amount of squads as befor (as 1.18), for slightly less antimatter. Below is a table I worked up long ago in an earlier call to nerf scramble bombers.

Avg # of SQUADS..............1.19..........1.18......... (40 cd)........(60cd)
............TEC.....Advent.......Vasari........Vasari........Vasari........Vasari
...........Sova...Halcyon....Skirantra.....Skirantra.....Skirantra.....Skirantra
Level 1....3.........4.............6.43..............6...............6................5
Level 3....4.........6............10.86.............8..............10................8
Level 5....5.........8............15.29............11.............14...............11
Level 6....6........12.125.....16.29............12.............15...............12
Level 8....7........13.125.....17.29............13.............16...............13
Level10...8........14.125.....18.29............14.............17...............14

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