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COULD Sins have a pro scene?

By on April 19, 2012 11:27:17 PM from Sins of a Solar Empire Forums Sins of a Solar Empire Forums

Oddski_Boddski

Join Date 12/2010
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So I've been wandering around the forum lately and I've noticed a bit of chat about the lack of a pro scene for Sins. People are somewhat divided on the issue, but the idea that Sins cannot have a pro scene due to multiplayer game length and unbalanced maps seems to be gaining a certain amount of traction. I just thought that I'd take a look at the possibility of creating a Sins pro scene, how such a thing might be possible, and any ideas people may have for creating such a scene. Also, I shall take a look at the arguments that say that this would be impossible.

 

So. I have heard some people say that it doesn't matter how skilled you are, if you end up with the short end of the stick on an unbalanced map, then you're screwed.  A real pro would be able to adapt to the situation. He/she would be able to expand to a certain degree and could be able to make up for a bad start with planning. If you don't like your starting region, go colonize some other planets and make another capital.

 

I have also heard that a Sins game simply lasts too long to be of any interest for someone to watch. First off, I'd like to note that an average chess tournament match can last two and a half hours. And if you're playing in something more advanced than a middle school or elementary school tournament, you probably have some skill and could be considered something of a pro. Second, professional sports or games are not always designed to be conducive to the viewer. I am a soccer fan myself, but I am sympathetic to the claims of my friends that a soccer match isn't always fun to watch, since having two goals in an hour and a half can be underwhelming. But the players in those matches are still pros with a large amount of skill, regardless of how much people like to watch them.

 

So. Sins itself is already something of an unusual game. And maybe an unusual game deserves some sort of unusual (by the standards of a professional SC2 clickfest match) pro scene. We as a community have a large number of skilled players out there. We just need to talk to each other and get the ball rolling on creating some sort of professional thing for the truly professional members amongst us. If an entertaining youtube video fought between RagingAmish and some other pro is your goal, than simply break the video up into chunks based upon developments in the game to reduce video length. If we want some sort of professional league, than maybe we could talk to Ironclad or Stardock about setting up something along those lines. I'm tired of hearing people whine about how we can't have a pro scene. What I would like to see is people taking the energy they put into whining about the lack of a pro scene and putting it into reasoned suggestions on how to create a pro scene. So. Make suggestions. That's what this post is for.

 

Thanks for all of you who actually will bother to make suggestions on this thread instead of telling me that I am ignorant, uniformed, or simply naive.

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April 19, 2012 11:50:34 PM from Sins of a Solar Empire Forums Sins of a Solar Empire Forums

A real pro would be able to adapt to the situation. He/she would be able to expand to a certain degree and could be able to make up for a bad start with planning. If you don't like your starting region, go colonize some other planets and make another capital.

A real pro could deal with a shit start and beat a noob with a good start....that's completely possible, and it happens...

The issue is, if you and me are equally competent at this game, then starting position really matters...this game mostly favors skill over luck, but there is still a luck factor at it can be really frustrating at times...

It is certainly possible to create perfectly balanced maps, but it requires extensive work in galaxy forge and/or modding...

Things that the devs could do to help the situation is make a narrower range of deviation...for example, ice/volcanic planets would have either 3 or 4 extractors (not 2, 3, or 4)...additionally, neutrals could be made to always have 2 or 3 extractors (instead of 0 to 4)...

Militia counts could be changed accordingly...it's ridiculous that a terran can very from 5 ships to as many as 25 or so...

Of course, that's a slippery slope because it reduces variability (which some people want more of)...

Anyway, the point is that there are small things the devs could do to make maps more fair/balanced...this is an old community, and still many people here have a huge resistance to modding or using custom maps...for better or worse, the pros have never united behind a particle balance mod or set of maps (though DirtySanchez has really pushed his list of maps, which are pretty good)...unless the base game is changed by the devs, I just don't see some community effort getting this done...

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April 19, 2012 11:52:17 PM from Sins of a Solar Empire Forums Sins of a Solar Empire Forums

The argument is basically:  How can you judge someone's skill using an unbalanced method? technically, you can't.

Honestly, all Sins games are custom games. There isn't any differentiation toward game type and you cannot 'score' people. But, on the other hand the community has created something of a pro scene toward regular and recognized skilled players.

Still, this argument has been done to death. Let it die. 

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April 19, 2012 11:54:47 PM from Sins of a Solar Empire Forums Sins of a Solar Empire Forums

^this. we have very good players. Considered "pros". Im sure if they were to make ladder matches they would transition very well. But yes we CAN have a pro scene. Another problem that needs to be tackled is game length.

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April 20, 2012 3:30:17 AM from Sins of a Solar Empire Forums Sins of a Solar Empire Forums

They are 3 groups of people:

 

Noobs, Average Joes and Pros.

Real noobs make up 30% of the ico community, joes 60% and pros 10%.

Single player noobs is 70%, Joes at 25% and Pros who play many ai games is 5%

Lan is somewhat different (where i reside)-tournaments etc, pizza and kababs etc-fun all night: I'd say Joes and Pros is 70% to 30% here or all joes in some matches. Noobs can't survive here and aren't even allowed on a comp. 

 

The pro is voted by the highest number-the joes and its the kind of people you will see arguing around the forums for things that are common sense as they try to make their mark. 

The truth is pros exist but they have no time to mingle with the lower casts or have them in their teams: They want to win and enjoy the quest for victory. Getting stomped because your the only pro in a 4v4 against other pros in the other team is ridiculed.

 

If you want to find out how they play or who they are then ask for people to post replays or ask someone you think is a pro to post a replay of his recent game. You won't get better at sins by determining whether the pro scene exists-you have to learn to become one.

 

 

 

 

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April 20, 2012 6:27:18 AM from Sins of a Solar Empire Forums Sins of a Solar Empire Forums

Quoting ,

  So. I have heard some people say that it doesn't matter how skilled you are, if you end up with the short end of the stick on an unbalanced map, then you're screwed.  A real pro would be able to adapt to the situation. He/she would be able to expand to a certain degree and could be able to make up for a bad start with planning. If you don't like your starting region, go colonize some other planets and make another capital.

That's like saying a "real pro" would be able to adapt to the other player in a chess match getting a couple of bonus pieces. Maybe they would sometimes, but it's a disadvantage that isn't tolerable in a real pro scene.

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April 20, 2012 12:40:18 PM from Sins of a Solar Empire Forums Sins of a Solar Empire Forums

It would be possible for Sins to have a pro scene, but pros want a lot of things that Sins is currently not good at providing. In other words: The game (and the development team) will have to jettison a lot of its strengths and risk alienating a majority of its current customer base, in order to court a market that they don't have much experience with and that much larger companies are already pursuing aggressively. It's an idea that has killed a lot of development companies lately: That when a different types of people say they play "games", that they're still talking about the same thing. It makes every developer think they can leverage their particular strengths into the growth that's happening in the industry, when most of them can't.

Which is a long way of saying that if you want a "pro" version of Sins, I would start talking up a new game entirely instead of slapping paint on this one.

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April 20, 2012 1:09:01 PM from Sins of a Solar Empire Forums Sins of a Solar Empire Forums

Whether Sins can have a pro scene?

Firstly we are talking a pro scene as an environment where players strive to improve and get better at the game.

 

Take Starcraft 2 which has this environment.

 Im platinum 1v1 , Diamond 2v2 3v3 . APM of 80.  - so roughly above average player.

But because of the "environment"

- I load up unit test map to try out different units against each other

- I practice the micro challenges to improve aspects of my unit control

- I watch replays on youtube of top pros to study their techniques and get unique commentary explanation from casters

- I download expert replays

- I watch every replay of my games to study weaknesses in my macro and micro

- I post threads and ask for tips on various plays.

 

The same would be said of a Bronze Newbie.

Because the "environment" is tailored and covergent towards a "pro scene"

even a new player will do the above to best of his abilities. Even at a low level he will be striving to improve.

 

So its actually the attitude of the new players who decide if sins will truely go down the path of pro scene . because its new players that become tommorows expert players. And its because new players become tommorows experts that todays experts strive to keep up with their skills.

 

But frankly ive said this before . Sins will never ever have a pro scene because newbies are now content on joining 4v4 random , and theres no motivation to learn because its ALL RANDOM!!!.

Fixed maps will provide a tiny bit of the environment neccessary to encourage new players to improve at the game. As it is now , I dont even want to improve at the game , cos whats the point! We are all playing 4v4 and 5v5 cos its comfortable , instead of 2v2 and 3v3.

But then again the real question is why should sins even have a pro scene. It IS my comfort game and I like it that way . If im ever gonna "train" at a game , its gonna be a game like Sc2 .

 

 

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April 20, 2012 1:22:39 PM from Sins of a Solar Empire Forums Sins of a Solar Empire Forums

Quoting RiddleKing,
Single player noobs is 70%, Joes at 25% and Pros who play many ai games is 5%

Almost by definition, someone who only plays against the AI is a noob.  There's no such thing as a "pro" who only plays vs. the AI.  For single player vs. AI, using the standard of online multiplayer PvP skill, it's probably more along the lines of 90% noob, 10% average Joes.  You just can't attain a pro skill level when the only opponents you play against are severely cognitively challenged (retarded) such as AI.

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April 20, 2012 1:42:59 PM from Sins of a Solar Empire Forums Sins of a Solar Empire Forums

I think Riddle meant that there are some pros who (in addition to playing on ICO) also play a fair amount of AI games....Greg would be an example of this....

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April 20, 2012 2:55:13 PM from Sins of a Solar Empire Forums Sins of a Solar Empire Forums

Quoting Seleuceia,
I think Riddle meant that there are some pros who (in addition to playing on ICO) also play a fair amount of AI games....Greg would be an example of this....

JJ too.. hes said it more than once

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April 20, 2012 3:01:39 PM from Sins of a Solar Empire Forums Sins of a Solar Empire Forums

There is one hurdle that needs to be overcome.

Is Stardock actually gonna give us support for this sort of thing from the get-go? Frankly they havn't done much to promote any form of ladder/professional gameplay. There is also the other reason that the community isn't large enough.

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April 20, 2012 5:12:37 PM from Sins of a Solar Empire Forums Sins of a Solar Empire Forums

Quoting RiddleKing,
The truth is pros exist but they have no time to mingle with the lower casts or have them in their teams: They want to win and enjoy the quest for victory. Getting stomped because your the only pro in a 4v4 against other pros in the other team is ridiculed.

Actually, a true elite player doesn't care if he has bad buddies or if he loses. He knows that everyone has bad days or bad games, doesn't complain about that, and doesn't care if he wins. He just tries to play the best he can. Of course winning is cool and everything, but this is a game.

Infact, for a good player, challenges like being in a green team opposed by veterans, or playing "stacked" against more opponents, as they say these days, are fun.

I have been very good at some games (Homeworld 2 especially) (not one of the very best but surely one of those who was looked as a paragon, especially for flexibility and strategic skill), and this what I intended with "pro".

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April 20, 2012 5:18:40 PM from Sins of a Solar Empire Forums Sins of a Solar Empire Forums

True. I suppose that to get a large enough number of people to have a decent pro scene we would need to have more players. The problem is that Sins isn't as widely advertised as other PC games such as WoW or SC2. I myself heard about this game through word of mouth from a friend. We would need some sort of promotion campaign or a lot of word of mouth to get enough players.

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April 21, 2012 7:18:23 AM from Sins of a Solar Empire Forums Sins of a Solar Empire Forums

Steam is decent exposure-and the recent media frenzy on the game has sparked web channels of all sizes.

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April 21, 2012 11:37:58 AM from Sins of a Solar Empire Forums Sins of a Solar Empire Forums

According to my guesstimates, with the current player base of my knowledge, the top 8 players would probably win ~90% of 1v1 elimination tournaments, even with random maps; with the remaining ~10% split among the remaining online players, compstompters, and lan players. So unless you want to watch the same ~8 players brawl it out every pro competition we need more *pro* players.

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April 21, 2012 11:44:49 AM from Sins of a Solar Empire Forums Sins of a Solar Empire Forums

Quoting master1a,
8 players brawl it out every pro competition we need more *pro* players.

*GASP* Smurfing could solve this problem!  With Smurfs, we wouldn't know we're watching the same 8 players!

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April 21, 2012 11:55:15 AM from Sins of a Solar Empire Forums Sins of a Solar Empire Forums

Good idea the top 8 players can make it look like there are hundreds or even thousands of intensely competitive highly skilled players, that will create the appearance of *winning a tournament means you accomplished something/you wont be up vs the same players every time/other people are doing it so you should also*, then after a few months (cough years) those 8 tired/haggard/completely exhausted players can slowly decrease the number of smurfs they play while other *pros* join the battlefield.

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April 22, 2012 3:05:43 PM from Sins of a Solar Empire Forums Sins of a Solar Empire Forums

MATCHMAKING!!111oneone

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April 23, 2012 11:40:36 PM from Sins of a Solar Empire Forums Sins of a Solar Empire Forums

Having a solid and balanced gameplay is important, but everyone is forgetting the most important part.

 

Will it attract large audience?

 

The game's pacing feels too slow and that ship icons are the main way to view this game if you want useful information points to no, at least not unless the game becomes CRAZY SUPER CHAMPIONSHIP EDITION famous and popular.

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May 21, 2012 6:21:29 AM from Sins of a Solar Empire Forums Sins of a Solar Empire Forums

Quoting RiddleKing,
They are 3 groups of people:



Noobs, Average Joes and Pros.

Real noobs make up 30% of the ico community, joes 60% and pros 10%.

Single player noobs is 70%, Joes at 25% and Pros who play many ai games is 5%

 

You are wrong RiddleKing, its 4 group of people in skill level:

 4. Noobs

3. Average

2. Pros

1. JohnyJames

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May 21, 2012 6:49:04 AM from Sins of a Solar Empire Forums Sins of a Solar Empire Forums

Quoting Seleuceia,
*GASP* Smurfing could solve this problem!  With Smurfs, we wouldn't know we're watching the same 8 players!

And they would be playing against themselves. Hmmm who should I let win me or ME.

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May 21, 2012 8:02:22 AM from Sins of a Solar Empire Forums Sins of a Solar Empire Forums

I dont think creating symmetrical balanced tournament maps would be a problem with GalaxyForge, there are many maps like that to download even now, so the unbalanced argument does not hold water.

 

Other than, that, Sins community is perhaps still too small to spawn genuine pro scene. Wait for the Rebbelion to be released, promote it accordingly, and we might get somewhere. 

 

 

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May 21, 2012 8:39:36 AM from Sins of a Solar Empire Forums Sins of a Solar Empire Forums

Bugged and unfair "random" map generator (2 easy fixes would make it fine, I posted a while ago about it), low player count? Who cares. IC introduced super-fast anti-everything unit. That's real reason not to play.

I'm not even mentioning release of VR with tier 5 mobile SBs.

 

Yeah, it's just random rant. Move along.

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May 21, 2012 12:43:57 PM from Sins of a Solar Empire Forums Sins of a Solar Empire Forums

It's okay...I hear the advent love cannon will spawn space ponies in the next update, so it should be balanced soon....

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June 8, 2012 4:27:45 AM from Sins of a Solar Empire Forums Sins of a Solar Empire Forums

Quoting Seleuceia,
It's okay...I hear the advent love cannon will spawn space ponies in the next update, so it should be balanced soon....

Finally, a reason to build it!

LET THE PONIES RULE THE GALAXY!

LET THE PONY INVASION BEGIN!

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