A real pro could deal with a shit start and beat a noob with a good start....that's completely possible, and it happens...

The issue is, if you and me are equally competent at this game, then starting position really matters...this game mostly favors skill over luck, but there is still a luck factor at it can be really frustrating at times...

It is certainly possible to create perfectly balanced maps, but it requires extensive work in galaxy forge and/or modding...

Things that the devs could do to help the situation is make a narrower range of deviation...for example, ice/volcanic planets would have either 3 or 4 extractors (not 2, 3, or 4)...additionally, neutrals could be made to always have 2 or 3 extractors (instead of 0 to 4)...

Militia counts could be changed accordingly...it's ridiculous that a terran can very from 5 ships to as many as 25 or so...

Of course, that's a slippery slope because it reduces variability (which some people want more of)...

Anyway, the point is that there are small things the devs could do to make maps more fair/balanced...this is an old community, and still many people here have a huge resistance to modding or using custom maps...for better or worse, the pros have never united behind a particle balance mod or set of maps (though DirtySanchez has really pushed his list of maps, which are pretty good)...unless the base game is changed by the devs, I just don't see some community effort getting this done...

^this. we have very good players. Considered "pros". Im sure if they were to make ladder matches they would transition very well. But yes we CAN have a pro scene. Another problem that needs to be tackled is game length.

That's like saying a "real pro" would be able to adapt to the other player in a chess match getting a couple of bonus pieces. Maybe they would sometimes, but it's a disadvantage that isn't tolerable in a real pro scene.

Whether Sins can have a pro scene?

Firstly we are talking a pro scene as an environment where players strive to improve and get better at the game.

Take Starcraft 2 which has this environment.

 Im platinum 1v1 , Diamond 2v2 3v3 . APM of 80.  - so roughly above average player.

But because of the "environment"

- I load up unit test map to try out different units against each other

- I practice the micro challenges to improve aspects of my unit control

- I watch replays on youtube of top pros to study their techniques and get unique commentary explanation from casters

- I download expert replays

- I watch every replay of my games to study weaknesses in my macro and micro

- I post threads and ask for tips on various plays.

The same would be said of a Bronze Newbie.

Because the "environment" is tailored and covergent towards a "pro scene"

even a new player will do the above to best of his abilities. Even at a low level he will be striving to improve.

So its actually the attitude of the new players who decide if sins will truely go down the path of pro scene . because its new players that become tommorows expert players. And its because new players become tommorows experts that todays experts strive to keep up with their skills.

But frankly ive said this before . Sins will never ever have a pro scene because newbies are now content on joining 4v4 random , and theres no motivation to learn because its ALL RANDOM!!!.

Fixed maps will provide a tiny bit of the environment neccessary to encourage new players to improve at the game. As it is now , I dont even want to improve at the game , cos whats the point! We are all playing 4v4 and 5v5 cos its comfortable , instead of 2v2 and 3v3.

But then again the real question is why should sins even have a pro scene. It IS my comfort game and I like it that way . If im ever gonna "train" at a game , its gonna be a game like Sc2 .

I think Riddle meant that there are some pros who (in addition to playing on ICO) also play a fair amount of AI games....Greg would be an example of this....

There is one hurdle that needs to be overcome.

Is Stardock actually gonna give us support for this sort of thing from the get-go? Frankly they havn't done much to promote any form of ladder/professional gameplay. There is also the other reason that the community isn't large enough.

True. I suppose that to get a large enough number of people to have a decent pro scene we would need to have more players. The problem is that Sins isn't as widely advertised as other PC games such as WoW or SC2. I myself heard about this game through word of mouth from a friend. We would need some sort of promotion campaign or a lot of word of mouth to get enough players.

According to my guesstimates, with the current player base of my knowledge, the top 8 players would probably win ~90% of 1v1 elimination tournaments, even with random maps; with the remaining ~10% split among the remaining online players, compstompters, and lan players. So unless you want to watch the same ~8 players brawl it out every pro competition we need more *pro* players.

Good idea the top 8 players can make it look like there are hundreds or even thousands of intensely competitive highly skilled players, that will create the appearance of *winning a tournament means you accomplished something/you wont be up vs the same players every time/other people are doing it so you should also*, then after a few months (cough years) those 8 tired/haggard/completely exhausted players can slowly decrease the number of smurfs they play while other *pros* join the battlefield.

Having a solid and balanced gameplay is important, but everyone is forgetting the most important part.

Will it attract large audience?

The game's pacing feels too slow and that ship icons are the main way to view this game if you want useful information points to no, at least not unless the game becomes CRAZY SUPER CHAMPIONSHIP EDITION famous and popular.

And they would be playing against themselves. Hmmm who should I let win me or ME.

Bugged and unfair "random" map generator (2 easy fixes would make it fine, I posted a while ago about it), low player count? Who cares. IC introduced super-fast anti-everything unit. That's real reason not to play.

I'm not even mentioning release of VR with tier 5 mobile SBs.

Yeah, it's just random rant. Move along.

Finally, a reason to build it!

LET THE PONIES RULE THE GALAXY!

LET THE PONY INVASION BEGIN!