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Can you disable AI surrender in Rebellion?

By on April 20, 2012 9:53:17 AM from Sins of a Solar Empire Forums Sins of a Solar Empire Forums

Eilarais

Join Date 07/2005
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I am wondering about this, because this was a big issue for some people in Trinity. In fact, during one memorable game I managed to create a fleet so large that the opposing AIs surrendered before it fired a shot. Which, yay, except it kind of ruined the point of comp-stomping in the first place (to watch things blow up real nice). So does this expansion have a way around this kind of premature victory?

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April 20, 2012 10:06:52 AM from Sins of a Solar Empire Forums Sins of a Solar Empire Forums

I believe the AI surrender is meant to save time in an otherwise boring and long galaxy purge.
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I agree in concept, but when maps get really large I like the surrender better.

It would be nice if both were available .

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April 20, 2012 10:43:19 AM from Sins of a Solar Empire Forums Sins of a Solar Empire Forums

The purge could get boring on large maps, no question. Especially when the AI parked some tiny fleet at a star and you had ship speed set to slow. So I am not saying AI surrender should be disabled for everyone and every game. But I think it's really important to have this as a selectable option.

 

What I think is happening is that there's a point past which the AI can't really play effectively, and it will quit rather than force you to finish a game you can't lose. This makes sense, but why not just have the option there for people who really want to see it through?

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April 20, 2012 10:57:29 AM from Sins of a Solar Empire Forums Sins of a Solar Empire Forums

you do have the option to "Keep Playing" when you win so you can mop up the defenses.  

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April 20, 2012 11:39:37 AM from Sins of a Solar Empire Forums Sins of a Solar Empire Forums

Quoting stein220,
you do have the option to "Keep Playing" when you win so you can mop up the defenses.

I haven't played the new expansion yet, so maybe that has some potential. The problem with this in Trinity though was that after victory the AI doesn't play effectively or even ineffectively, it just shuts off.

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April 20, 2012 11:49:22 AM from Sins of a Solar Empire Forums Sins of a Solar Empire Forums

Well, give relocating the capital planet a cooldown of maybe 15-30minutes and you can still purge a galaxy fast by killing capitals after another then.

 

But I'm of the same opinion as Eliarais, it's kind of annoying sometimes, when the ai just surrenders...

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April 20, 2012 11:56:10 AM from Stardock Forums Stardock Forums

I'd prefer that it worked in the same way as in Age of Empires 3.  The AI 'offers' a surrender, the player chooses to accept or decline, and the game proceeds accordingly (with the AI continuing as normal or abandoning the game).

 

I agree that the AI is a little too quick to bail in many cases and yes, it would be nice to have a choice in the matter.

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April 20, 2012 12:02:57 PM from Sins of a Solar Empire Forums Sins of a Solar Empire Forums

Quoting Sakhari,
I'd prefer that it worked in the same way as in Age of Empires 3.  The AI 'offers' a surrender, the player chooses to accept or decline, and the game proceeds accordingly (with the AI continuing as normal or abandoning the game).

 

I agree that the AI is a little too quick to bail in many cases and yes, it would be nice to have a choice in the matter.

 

Sounds to me as an ideal solution. Please devs, make this happen. 

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April 20, 2012 12:50:08 PM from Sins of a Solar Empire Forums Sins of a Solar Empire Forums

YES YES!

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April 20, 2012 1:26:06 PM from Sins of a Solar Empire Forums Sins of a Solar Empire Forums

Quoting Sakhari,
I'd prefer that it worked in the same way as in Age of Empires 3.  The AI 'offers' a surrender, the player chooses to accept or decline, and the game proceeds accordingly (with the AI continuing as normal or abandoning the game).


The complication is that if you decline a surrender, should the AI surrender again? How long should it wait? Should it surrender to all players in a multiplayer game or just one? Should AI's be able to surrender to each other, and if so how should it be handled?

Here's a solution that hopefully would be easy to implement and would give much more realistic behavior then what we see now:

1. Allow toggling on/off of AI surrenders in the game setup screen.

2. If surrenders are on, no change to AI behavior.

3. If surrenders are off, scale the AI's calculated power rating, as determined by a multiplier based on the difference between the actual current rating and the rating needed to initiate surrender. In this way you can prevent this surrender threshold from being reached while still reacting to changes in the rating.

I'm really hoping the above is feasible enough to make it into the game. The AI logic isn't changed at all, it's just fooling itself into always thinking it can win.

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April 20, 2012 1:47:46 PM from Stardock Forums Stardock Forums

Quoting Eilarais,
The complication is that if you decline a surrender, should the AI surrender again? How long should it wait? Should it surrender to all players in a multiplayer game or just one? Should AI's be able to surrender to each other, and if so how should it be handled?

Q:  Should the AI make further attempts at surrender if the first is declined?

A:  Yes.  I assume there's some kind of trigger that prompts the AI to surrender.  If the player declines, simply check that trigger again at some set interval to see if it's still true. 

Q:  How long is the interval?

A:  15 minutes?  30 minutes?  Doesn't really matter at the moment.  Easy enough to tweak.

Q:  Should it surrender to all players or one?

A:  Again, using the AOE3 example, the option was offered to all human players in the game and as I recall, the choice was made by whoever clicked it first.  If you're playing a game with AI's, the assumption was that the game was probably either a friendly match with the AI providing a 'random' factor or a comp stomp.  In either case, it's probably not that difficult for the human players to reach a consensus.

Q:  Should the AI's surrender to each other?

A:  No.  If beaten down, the AI would still offer surrender to the human players as normal.

It's been done before and it worked well enough.  I don't see why it'd have to be any more complex here.  That said, I wouldn't be opposed to a simple pre-game on/off toggle either.  I only prefer the AOE3 version because you're still able to get your end-game combat while the AI gets another chance to quit during the inevitable tedious mop-up phase.

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April 20, 2012 2:05:11 PM from Sins of a Solar Empire Forums Sins of a Solar Empire Forums

In victory conditions like "last flagship standing" or "last homeworld standing" the AI should not give up unless you actually did what the victory condition requires you to. Otherwise there is no point in using that victory condition in the first place.

 

The AI also needs to learn to actually go for the occupation planet. It'd be nice if I was actually beaten to it by them once... Or if they attacked me there.

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April 20, 2012 2:05:59 PM from Sins of a Solar Empire Forums Sins of a Solar Empire Forums

Quoting Sakhari,
I only prefer the AOE3 version because you're still able to get your end-game combat while the AI gets another chance to quit during the inevitable tedious mop-up phase.

AOE3-style is the better option, definitely. But I'm hoping to make this request so simple and easy to implement that the devs have no way to escape it

 

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May 9, 2012 5:35:13 AM from Sins of a Solar Empire Forums Sins of a Solar Empire Forums

There's 60 million requests for this, and 0 responses. It's shouldn't be hard to code that in to the game lol.

http://forums.sinsofasolarempire.com/302815

All they have to do is undo what they did here!!! some of us like a long bloody fight.

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May 9, 2012 5:44:54 AM from Sins of a Solar Empire Forums Sins of a Solar Empire Forums

THIS SO MUCH. Please turn off AI surrender, or at least make an option to disable it. Its frustrating. I want to see my fleets in action.

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June 11, 2012 5:03:35 PM from Sins of a Solar Empire Forums Sins of a Solar Empire Forums

An option to disable surrender would be much appreciated.  It is *highly* annoying to have the AI just wave the white flag when it's finally at a disadvantage after roflstomping you for most of the game.  When it's two humans vs AI, I can see the surrender being handy (Real Life tends to throw complications at you that make a long game untenable).  But when I'm playing against a hard AI in a single-player match, I *want* that purge, the satisfaction of the AI scrambling like I had to for most of the game. 

 

TL;DR - please add an option at the game menu to disable AI surrender.

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June 11, 2012 7:15:27 PM from Sins of a Solar Empire Forums Sins of a Solar Empire Forums

you have an option to just keep playing?!... isint that the same thing? or you want the ai to struggle and feed ships to your end game fleet?

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June 12, 2012 1:58:09 AM from Sins of a Solar Empire Forums Sins of a Solar Empire Forums

please this. i hope this is in the final release tomorrow.

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June 18, 2012 11:21:52 AM from Sins of a Solar Empire Forums Sins of a Solar Empire Forums

Quoting axxo2,
you have an option to just keep playing?!... isint that the same thing? or you want the ai to struggle and feed ships to your end game fleet?

Yes, the idea is that the AI will fight its doomed little fight and feed ships into the maw. The point of space games, after all, is to blow stuff up in space.

And I think I've finally cracked the code on this one. The AI looks at both your economic and military assets when deciding how powerful you are. So if you have a huge economic advantage going into your end-game push, the AI will just fold as soon as it sees your fleet and the "Victory" screen will come up. But if the AI is on even terms it will fight.

If I'm right, then it should be possible to prevent surrender by adjusting the AI's resource rate. Probably what is happening is the AI is building a large a fleet too early in some scenarios, which starves its economy. Then it sees your comparable fleet in the late-game and quits. This would explain why some people think the AI surrenders too soon and others think it never does. I'll test this by gifting resources to the AI before every big battle and see how long I can prolong the game.

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June 18, 2012 6:53:05 PM from Sins of a Solar Empire Forums Sins of a Solar Empire Forums

When they had the Q&A I asked whether or not the time the AI surrendered would be fixed, and they said that they would change how the AI surrenders, but it doesn't appear as though they did, which is disappointing. I too believe that the AOE3 option would be best.

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July 1, 2012 11:10:00 AM from Sins of a Solar Empire Forums Sins of a Solar Empire Forums

bump

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July 2, 2012 12:55:47 PM from Sins of a Solar Empire Forums Sins of a Solar Empire Forums

bump

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July 17, 2012 1:15:39 PM from Sins of a Solar Empire Forums Sins of a Solar Empire Forums

To give an update on this, I've made a mod that splits all races into Human and AI variants, with the AI's maintenance cost reduced from 0-75% to 0-20%. I haven't seen any premature AI surrenders since making this change.

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