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What does the Revelation need to truly terrify her enemies?

By on July 10, 2012 8:18:34 PM from Sins of a Solar Empire Forums Sins of a Solar Empire Forums

stein220

Join Date 12/2008
+11

The Revelation is another capital ship that doesn't get enough good press.  

I guess the main complaint is with Guidance, and i've seen mods give Clairvoyance a secondary effect.  I like Volt's idea of increasing your own culture at a planet like the DE b/c the manual says the Revelation's power "occasionally finds benign use".

I haven't seen complaints about Reverie and I actually like the utlimate, Provoke Hysteria, which is the main reason to get the Revelation in my opinion.

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July 19, 2012 12:29:08 PM from Sins of a Solar Empire Forums Sins of a Solar Empire Forums

Quoting Seleuceia,
I'm I alone in thinking that buffing only a single frigate is rather...idk, lame...for a capital ship ability?

^
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July 19, 2012 4:52:16 PM from Sins of a Solar Empire Forums Sins of a Solar Empire Forums

Quoting JuleTron,
Reverie probably should not increase ability cool downs on enemy Titans and SBs because debuffing Titans is what the Discord's Lethargy ability is for, same with Detonate AM.

.. That's why I suggested a weapon cooldown...

Quoting Seleuceia,
I'm I alone in thinking that buffing only a single frigate is rather...idk, lame...for a capital ship ability?

Replicate Forces.. Siege Turret...  Missile Turret..  Scramble Bombers..  All of them effectively give you extra ships for a time.  This would be giving you a super ship for a time.

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July 19, 2012 5:28:00 PM from Sins of a Solar Empire Forums Sins of a Solar Empire Forums

Quoting JuleTron,


Looks good. However, as the Revelation gains levels, the game progresses until this ability is not all that useful so increasing AM cost per level sounds unnecessary. If any thing, AM cost should decrease per level.

 ...

Good point.  Also I've been thinking that I may have been a bit to conservative with the cooldown/duration(scramble bombers has 30/75, missile battery has 35/180).  The DPS per cast is already much lower then scramble bombers, and while the duration should definitely be lower then missile battery, I think 1/6 as long may have been a bit low.

I'm thinking perhaps 50-60 seconds duration may have been a bit more in line with existing abilities- close, but a bit shorter to compensate for the added flexibility of being able to buff a unit of whatever damage type is desired.

Quoting Seleuceia,
I'm I alone in thinking that buffing only a single frigate is rather...idk, lame...for a capital ship ability?

Realistically speaking it's not all that different from Missile Battery.  it creates a single frigate.  The buff is significant enough that it allows a single existing frigate to carry the firepower of multiple frigates, which ultimately is aboutt he same as creating a new one.  

 

Heck, the closest analogue is actually the Skirantra's level 6 ability which clones a single target frigate a few times.  In the end of the day, this ability provides comparable added firepower to creating 2 clones.  Honestly I don't see how creating clones of a single frigate is all that much oe impressive then a buff that allows the same single frigate to perform as though it were multiple frigates.

Of course replicate forces is much stronger(it is a level 6 ability after all), but the basic principal is the same: Gain extra units of firepower proportional to a single targeted frigate.

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July 19, 2012 5:54:44 PM from Sins of a Solar Empire Forums Sins of a Solar Empire Forums

For those who can't test this themselves, here's a quick mod to demonstrate Bilun's suggestion.

AM: 50/55/60/65
CD: 35

Damage: 80%/120%/160%/200%
Bombing Cooldown: -80%/-120%/-160%/-200%
Ability Cooldown Rate: 100%
Armor: 4/6/8/10

Duration: 50/53.3/56.7/60 

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July 19, 2012 6:09:02 PM from Sins of a Solar Empire Forums Sins of a Solar Empire Forums

Quoting bilun,


Realistically speaking it's not all that different from Missile Battery.  it creates a single frigate.  The buff is significant enough that it allows a single existing frigate to carry the firepower of multiple frigates, which ultimately is aboutt he same as creating a new one. 

Heck, the closest analogue is actually the Skirantra's level 6 ability which clones a single target frigate a few times.  In the end of the day, this ability provides comparable added firepower to creating 2 clones.  Honestly I don't see how creating clones of a single frigate is all that much oe impressive then a buff that allows the same single frigate to perform as though it were multiple frigates.

Of course replicate forces is much stronger(it is a level 6 ability after all), but the basic principal is the same: Gain extra units of firepower proportional to a single targeted frigate.

 

What about microing the ability? I mean for the player who is fighting the Revelation, it makes since to focus fire the buffed combat frigate. Replicate Forces, Siege, and Missile Battery doesn't have quite the same problem since a player knows they will be destroyed in a minute or two anyways, while this buffs something already in existence. I'm not against this, just pointing it out.

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July 19, 2012 6:14:02 PM from Sins of a Solar Empire Forums Sins of a Solar Empire Forums

I haven't tried this just yet, but if it needs to scale better, you could make the cooldown decrease with each level and the duration increase so a Revelation could buff mutliple ships at once.

I may play with Volt and Bilun's numbers later to see if it can get a bunch of ships going.

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July 19, 2012 6:21:05 PM from Sins of a Solar Empire Forums Sins of a Solar Empire Forums

Quoting CoronalFire,


What about microing the ability? I mean for the player who is fighting the Revelation, it makes since to focus fire the buffed combat frigate. Replicate Forces, Siege, and Missile Battery doesn't have quite the same problem since a player knows they will be destroyed in a minute or two anyways, while this buffs something already in existence. I'm not against this, just pointing it out.

Vengeance?

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July 19, 2012 6:24:27 PM from Sins of a Solar Empire Forums Sins of a Solar Empire Forums

Quoting stein220,

Quoting CoronalFire, reply 106

What about microing the ability? I mean for the player who is fighting the Revelation, it makes since to focus fire the buffed combat frigate. Replicate Forces, Siege, and Missile Battery doesn't have quite the same problem since a player knows they will be destroyed in a minute or two anyways, while this buffs something already in existence. I'm not against this, just pointing it out.

Vengeance?

 

That requires another cap, but good point.

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July 19, 2012 6:29:00 PM from Sins of a Solar Empire Forums Sins of a Solar Empire Forums

Quoting Volt_Cruelerz,
Replicate Forces.. Siege Turret... Missile Turret.. Scramble Bombers..

While it is true that Guidance would be comparable to these abilities, I don't think they're abilities worth aspiring to...these actually are probably my least favorite abilities conceptually as they don't scale at all (siege turret I'm actually okay with just cause it's still very useful)...

I put a version of cluster warheads on missile batteries to make them scale against larger fleets...I don't have any suggestions for scramble bombers in vanilla, though I also am working with a mod where there bomber spam isn't an issue...you could probably add Adept drone anima and heavy strikecraft up there as well, both of which are abilities that I reworked because I thought they were lame...the point is, while Guidance may be comparable to things we have, those things I'd argue need to be changed themselves...

 

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July 19, 2012 6:35:44 PM from Sins of a Solar Empire Forums Sins of a Solar Empire Forums

Quoting CoronalFire,

Quoting bilun, reply 103

Realistically speaking it's not all that different from Missile Battery.  it creates a single frigate.  The buff is significant enough that it allows a single existing frigate to carry the firepower of multiple frigates, which ultimately is aboutt he same as creating a new one. 

Heck, the closest analogue is actually the Skirantra's level 6 ability which clones a single target frigate a few times.  In the end of the day, this ability provides comparable added firepower to creating 2 clones.  Honestly I don't see how creating clones of a single frigate is all that much oe impressive then a buff that allows the same single frigate to perform as though it were multiple frigates.

Of course replicate forces is much stronger(it is a level 6 ability after all), but the basic principal is the same: Gain extra units of firepower proportional to a single targeted frigate.

 

What about microing the ability? I mean for the player who is fighting the Revelation, it makes since to focus fire the buffed combat frigate. Replicate Forces, Siege, and Missile Battery doesn't have quite the same problem since a player knows they will be destroyed in a minute or two anyways, while this buffs something already in existence. I'm not against this, just pointing it out.

 

Aye, this is very true.  While I doubt it would make vengeance worthwhile(that ability is even worse then people think IMO), I do think it would be important in the long run for this rework of guidance to add some sort of reasonably noticeable particle effect to the buffed frigate to allow an opponent who is paying attention will notice the buffed unit(as focusing the unit is likely often the tactically clement decision). 

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July 19, 2012 6:37:08 PM from Sins of a Solar Empire Forums Sins of a Solar Empire Forums

Quoting Seleuceia,

Quoting Volt_Cruelerz, reply 102Replicate Forces.. Siege Turret... Missile Turret.. Scramble Bombers..

While it is true that Guidance would be comparable to these abilities, I don't think they're abilities worth aspiring to...these actually are probably my least favorite abilities conceptually as they don't scale at all (siege turret I'm actually okay with just cause it's still very useful)...

I put a version of cluster warheads on missile batteries to make them scale against larger fleets...I don't have any suggestions for scramble bombers in vanilla, though I also am working with a mod where there bomber spam isn't an issue...you could probably add Adept drone anima and heavy strikecraft up there as well, both of which are abilities that I reworked because I thought they were lame...the point is, while Guidance may be comparable to things we have, those things I'd argue need to be changed themselves...

 

I think some of the balance is how early you get a cap. Missile Battery is great early in the game. Siege can be coupled with replicate....giving it a second life....since the Revelation's ultimate is great for the entire game, mostly we've been working on the Revelation's early game.

But feel free to put up another idea.

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July 19, 2012 7:34:15 PM from Sins of a Solar Empire Forums Sins of a Solar Empire Forums

I'm going with zombie's implemenation that each advent cap (including the revelation) has an ability that becomes buffed when the cap is affected by guidance (similar to overcharge)....it scales as well as the as the ability that is affected and is useful at all stages of the game...even a revelation going solo could benefit from the ability if allowed to use on self and buff reverie...

 

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July 19, 2012 9:16:34 PM from Sins of a Solar Empire Forums Sins of a Solar Empire Forums

Interesting approach but somewhat complex to balance especially if it gives a different buff to different abilities. Using Guidance on itself could give Reverie a small AoE and/or allow targeted ships to receive more damage before causing the ability to wear off.

 

 

 

 

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July 19, 2012 11:25:17 PM from Sins of a Solar Empire Forums Sins of a Solar Empire Forums

Quoting JuleTron,
Interesting approach but somewhat complex to balance especially if it gives a different buff to different abilities. Using Guidance on itself could give Reverie a small AoE and/or allow targeted ships to receive more damage before causing the ability to wear off.
 

Erm... It's not a different buff to different abilities. It's a 10% buff to their current effect. It's a lot of setup to do and will be cool in a mod, but I doubt IC would do it. It is rather cool though and fits inline with the other abilities that promote synergy with the Advent faction.

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July 24, 2012 10:47:35 AM from Sins of a Solar Empire Forums Sins of a Solar Empire Forums

Reverie does not need a 10% duration buff.  It's borderline-overpowered as is, easily edging out all the other disable abilities in usefulness.

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July 24, 2012 5:30:39 PM from Sins of a Solar Empire Forums Sins of a Solar Empire Forums

Quoting Exterminator451,
Reverie does not need a 10% duration buff.  It's borderline-overpowered as is, easily edging out all the other disable abilities in usefulness.

I think Zombie was suggesting using Guidance to buff other abilities, not just buffing Reverie directly.  So the potential overpowered-ness (I was going to say OP-ness, which isn't right) would actually result from a combo of 2 abilities.

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July 24, 2012 5:37:37 PM from Sins of a Solar Empire Forums Sins of a Solar Empire Forums

Quoting stein220,

Quoting Exterminator451, reply 116Reverie does not need a 10% duration buff.  It's borderline-overpowered as is, easily edging out all the other disable abilities in usefulness.

I think Zombie was suggesting using Guidance to buff other abilities, not just buffing Reverie directly.  So the potential overpowered-ness (I was going to say OP-ness, which isn't right) would actually result from a combo of 2 abilities.

A 10% buff is hardly, no not even close to OP.

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July 24, 2012 5:37:44 PM from Sins of a Solar Empire Forums Sins of a Solar Empire Forums

It wouldn't be OP at all.  You're getting a relatively weak ability (Guidance) with the most utility in the game late-game.

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