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In defence of Rebellion... don't change anything!!!

By on September 13, 2012 10:00:59 PM from Sins of a Solar Empire Forums Sins of a Solar Empire Forums

just_jim

Join Date 05/2009
+5

OK, I need to revise this.... I'm just gonna say I like things the way they are....

 

Thank you Ironclad... I absolutely love Rebellion!

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September 13, 2012 10:07:38 PM from Sins of a Solar Empire Forums Sins of a Solar Empire Forums

Many of the people who suggest changes do so because they like the game, and want to improve it, refine it, make it the best it can be.

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September 13, 2012 10:14:33 PM from Sins of a Solar Empire Forums Sins of a Solar Empire Forums

Is this here because people are getting nervous about locked threads?

 

No offense Yarlen.

 

-Lord Brony

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September 13, 2012 10:17:07 PM from Sins of a Solar Empire Forums Sins of a Solar Empire Forums

Quoting OddskiBoddski,
Is this here because people are getting nervous about locked threads?

 

No offense Yarlen.

 

-Lord Brony

 

no, just me ranting, then un-ranting....

un-ranting??? 

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September 13, 2012 10:31:00 PM from Sins of a Solar Empire Forums Sins of a Solar Empire Forums

People aren't complaining about balance because "OMG I lost to teh Vasari they must be OP"....they are complaining because the factions are truly not balanced...obviously you don't agree (or don't care), but I can assure you there is a reason Vasari Rebels are banned from most MP games, and it isn't because some people lost a few games to them and didn't bother to try and find counters....

I'm going to guess you don't play much competitive MP games....that's totally fine, and no one has any right to tell you you're dumb for enjoying SP....but you also have no right to insult highly skilled MP guys who understand this game to a very high degree and recognize the severe balance issues...

It's one thing for you to say the balance is "good enough" for most players (who are SP and/or do comp stomps with friends)...it is entirely different for you to criticize skilled players for bringing attention to balance issues within the game...you are just as bad as the MP people who get pissy at noobs simply because they enjoy the SP experience and don't care about MP...

Some FYIs you may or may not be aware of:

  • Modding doesn't solve anything for the MP experience...it would be near to impossible to get consensus from all MP players on what balance changes should be made and how the mod should be distributed/updated...if there is a severe balance issue, you can make a mod to fix it if you want, but that isn't going to do you any good when trying to play with random people on ICO
  • The AI is not "clever"...it actually gets ridiculous cheats which seem to be exacerbated by changes in late diplomacy and rebellion....now that the AI actually builds superweapons and titans/corvettes make it harder to surive when outnumbered, their resource cheat becomes significantly more apparent...the AI gets technologies for free without the required labs, and because of their resource cheat can spam culture centers with no need for trade ports or refineries...the AI has a "playstyle" that is so grossly unrealistic that it just isn't even fun anymore....it's not that it's too hard, it's that it is so different from how you the human have to play the game...it's like you playing chess against someone who is playing checkers...
  • Many players enjoy games with variability....unfortunately, Titans have reduced variability because there is a limited number of fleet compositions that are effective....regardless of faction, bomber spam with some support ships has become the way to go late game...it isn't just about balance, players (both SP and MP) are tired of the same ol' strategy again and again and again

There are many forum members, including myself, that involve themselves with SP, MP, and modding...and you are trying to tell us to just "deal with it"...the audacity you have...

 

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September 14, 2012 1:42:20 AM from Sins of a Solar Empire Forums Sins of a Solar Empire Forums

I for one consider banning people for simple criticism a brash move that aims to stifle the profitable community that the developers have. 

All the free quality testing and analysis developers receive via these forums will now dry up and inhibit their ability to balance the game for the enjoyment of all.

They prefer to rid themselves temporarily of the issues at hand by silencing vocal opposition, yet the fact remains that over time they will still have this opposition raised by new names.

I'd recommend apologizing to your community before you breach our trust anymore then you already have.

Trust, the thing that your brand relies upon.

I trust stardock developers to have a thicker skin then to be egged on by a few forum trolls and retain focus.

You've done it for a few years now, why the change in policy?

 

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September 14, 2012 2:32:25 AM from Sins of a Solar Empire Forums Sins of a Solar Empire Forums

Quoting sareth01,
I for one consider banning people for simple criticism a brash move that aims to stifle the profitable community that the developers have. 

All the free quality testing and analysis developers receive via these forums will now dry up and inhibit their ability to balance the game for the enjoyment of all.

They prefer to rid themselves temporarily of the issues at hand by silencing vocal opposition, yet the fact remains that over time they will still have this opposition raised by new names.

I'd recommend apologizing to your community before you breach our trust anymore then you already have.

Trust, the thing that your brand relies upon.

I trust stardock developers to have a thicker skin then to be egged on by a few forum trolls and retain focus.

You've done it for a few years now, why the change in policy?

 

What did any of that have to do with the discussion we were having?

-Twi

 

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September 14, 2012 4:11:25 AM from Sins of a Solar Empire Forums Sins of a Solar Empire Forums

Quoting sareth01,
I for one consider banning people for simple criticism a brash move that aims to stifle the profitable community that the developers have. 

All the free quality testing and analysis developers receive via these forums will now dry up and inhibit their ability to balance the game for the enjoyment of all.

They prefer to rid themselves temporarily of the issues at hand by silencing vocal opposition, yet the fact remains that over time they will still have this opposition raised by new names.

I'd recommend apologizing to your community before you breach our trust anymore then you already have.

Trust, the thing that your brand relies upon.

I trust stardock developers to have a thicker skin then to be egged on by a few forum trolls and retain focus.

You've done it for a few years now, why the change in policy?

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September 14, 2012 4:47:38 AM from Sins of a Solar Empire Forums Sins of a Solar Empire Forums

Well, they're pissing and moaning all the time, so they might as well do it everywhere...

 

You guys just got a major balance patch two weeks ago, you were trolling them on it before it was even released.  Maybe if more threads were constructive and polite, instead of "this sucks, that sucks, the devs don't know their game" every other reply, less of them would be getting locked.  Are skins thinning?  Yeah.  That tends to happen when you bitch 24/7.  That you've gotten balance updates every couple weeks since it was released is something you should be thankful for.  Instead it's been a series of caustic threads from when it was still beta.

 

If there were anything resembling parity, there would be several thousand people pissing and moaning about things like how there aren't any campaigns or random events in the game.  Instead, it's just one steady stream of bitching from the small as hell competitive MP crowd.

 

Get some perspective.  In the meantime, perhaps you could all try not playing like assholes and abusing things you know to be brokenly powerful?  I know it's a hard concept for some of you(really hard) but you can actually have fun playing a horribly out of wack game by intentionally not abusing it!  Back when I still gave a shit and played way too many hours of WBC a day, I was really good.  I had a hell of a lot of fun while not being an asshole, and even now sins is way more balanced than WBC ever was.

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September 14, 2012 6:05:28 AM from Sins of a Solar Empire Forums Sins of a Solar Empire Forums

-Twi

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September 14, 2012 8:25:11 AM from Sins of a Solar Empire Forums Sins of a Solar Empire Forums

I think they could update the victory options

First the Research Victory:
This is incredibly cheap!!! I completed it like this once and i don't felt like a winner but like an idiot... When u read the descriptions of the upgrade you can see all three races talking about a doomsday device. Would it not be far more challenging if u had to actualy build that after the upgrade is done? and also have both an upgrade on the warfare, civillian and deplimacy three. If u after these upgrades still have to built it, the other players should see on wich planet and they can all go an try to stop u. After this building is completed let there be a 10 min victory delay so you can have an actually end fight. Now that would be a research victory no?

Second Occupied Victory:

Very well done i absolutly like this one! But why does it always have to be the same force that's defending it?


Third Flagship Vitcory:
Also very well done but the seize of the flagship could have been at least doubled, I don't get the impression this is an actual flagship that should represent your empire, it is more "hmm it's here somewhere... ow there is the tiny ship..."


Fourth Capital Last Standing:
Again very nice but: -Why wouldn't you be able to move it? It could be more time taking and more expensive to move it but why not move it att all? -Perhaps after it has been taken you should have a 5-10 min time to retake it, since you have to be able to respoind to a threat. -Again to increase respond time the planet's HP should have been doubled

 

Diplomatic Victory:

Yeah sorry but i don't get it... How can someone win a game by completing a number of missions for another player? I should say skip this one, unless... It could be more fair/challenging if some unknow force gives missions to all players and the first who completes it gets the points. Perhaps then i might like it but now its a bit silly.

 

Allied Victory:
I suppose why not, if u are playing with friends (example 2vs2) If one team has won they shouldn't have to kell each other to before the game is ended and making the other wait and wait and wait. A Wise decission to keep this option on/off.

 

I don't like to give critic, I LOVE this game, But i also think that people who gives ideas never harmed anyone, Communal laber as the advent would say

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September 14, 2012 10:04:16 AM from Sins of a Solar Empire Forums Sins of a Solar Empire Forums

I love Rebellion too and have thanked the developers.

That said, this game has had a rich history of MP, SP and forum members pointing out balance issues, weak spots, bugs, etc and suggesting specific improvements. 

Honestly nothing different is happening with Rebellion, EXCEPT for the excessive TROLLING which appears to have turned off many from this forum.

 

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September 14, 2012 10:18:51 AM from Sins of a Solar Empire Forums Sins of a Solar Empire Forums

Indeed the issue has never been the threads of criticism of balance and how to fix it. It was the incessant insults and rude behavior seen towards the developers lately. Yes they know the game is not balanced and it may never be completely balanced properly to everyone's expectations. They have even implemented many of the suggestions made by the many gamers (SP, MP, Modders alike) of this fun game. To insult them and be rude and troll them is deserving of the ban hammer.

 

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September 14, 2012 10:30:06 AM from Sins of a Solar Empire Forums Sins of a Solar Empire Forums

I agree the insults to the devs were completely out of line.  I am in favor of cracking down on the blatant constant trolling.

Although, the issue of the online people not wanting to play with new people is also a partial problem.

-Twi

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September 14, 2012 10:41:18 AM from Sins of a Solar Empire Forums Sins of a Solar Empire Forums

I don't play online less with friends, prob is got family here so i have to be able to pause the game sometimes.
Pretty annoying in multiplayer games that take a long time to complete

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September 14, 2012 10:42:18 AM from Sins of a Solar Empire Forums Sins of a Solar Empire Forums

Wow... it appears I've opened a can of "trolling" worms I didn't realized existed....  my apologies...,.

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September 14, 2012 10:43:20 AM from Sins of a Solar Empire Forums Sins of a Solar Empire Forums

Quoting psychoak,
Maybe if more threads were constructive and polite

You have to be kidding me, there have been so many legit and serious balance discussions in the last month...people are just tired of discussing the same balance issues...

Quoting psychoak,
If there were anything resembling parity, there would be several thousand people pissing and moaning about things like how there aren't any campaigns or random events in the game. Instead, it's just one steady stream of bitching from the small as hell competitive MP crowd.

There are people bitching about the fact that there is no campaign (among other similar things), but those people quickly come and go on the forums....your MP community however has stuck around....so yeah, let's all hate on a group of people who have had the patience and determination to stick with this game and continually be active forum members and continually try to improve this game...nvm the people who keep bitching this game isn't 64 bit or doesn't have options to turn off superweapons...nvm the people who got pissy when the galaxy forge map changed....nope, it's only the bitching from MP guys thats a problem.....

SP, MP, modders --- they all complain about the things that matter to them, and are all equally "selfish" and like broken records in that regard...the only person who needs perspective is you who conveniently forgets the whines and demands from non MP players....

Quoting psychoak,
In the meantime, perhaps you could all try not playing like assholes and abusing things you know to be brokenly powerful?

You're right, we should just all play on the honor system....anyone can play VR so long as they don't use starbase mobilization...and if anyone ever plays AL, you aren't allowed to rush their HW since they have no powerful techs or abilities....that sounds like an awesome plan....

Quoting Ryat,
It was the incessant insults and rude behavior seen towards the developers lately.

Some threads and posts made recently were insulting....some were also just honest....problem is devs take everything personally....you say their game doesn't have balance, and it's like saying their game is the worst thing in the world...tell them they don't understand the game as well as experienced MP players, and it's like you stabbed them in the heart with a cast iron Kol Battleship model...

Through various actions (or inactions) of both certain individuals and the devs, the forum community is slowly turning into a spiral of silence...people are becoming less and less inclined to discuss balance issues and problems with the game, and you are kidding yourself if you don't think the devs have had a hand in developing that atmosphere....I'm not putting all, or even most, of the blame on them....I'll finish with this: trolls don't always ruin communities...sometimes, ruined communities simply develop more trolls...

 

 

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September 14, 2012 10:58:27 AM from Sins of a Solar Empire Forums Sins of a Solar Empire Forums

Reply 13 hase very wise words, well said

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September 14, 2012 10:59:53 AM from Sins of a Solar Empire Forums Sins of a Solar Empire Forums

Quoting Twilight_Storm,
Although, the issue of the online people not wanting to play with new people is also a partial problem.

This isn't quite true. New people play online and are excepted in almost every large game I've played. There are always exceptions to this but in general new players a commonly excepted. Most people understand MP will die if they aren't.

Quoting Seleuceia,
Some threads and posts made recently were insulting....some were also just honest....problem is devs take everything personally....you say their game doesn't have balance, and it's like saying their game is the worst thing in the world...

You should see some of my replies on moddb to people I'm sure they thought were just being honest, but frankly insulted the hell out of me or people that contributed to my mod.

My favorite review is:

FlyingPancakes says
 
1 (<- lowest ranking possible on moddb) FlyingPancakes

Mar 31st, 2012 0 people agree 2 people don't

Quite the professional team.

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September 14, 2012 11:15:27 AM from Sins of a Solar Empire Forums Sins of a Solar Empire Forums

Quoting ZombiesRus5,
FlyingPancakes says

1 (
Mar 31st, 2012 0 people agree 2 people don't

Quite the professional team.

In theory they just might be stupid and think 1 is the best score.

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September 14, 2012 11:18:05 AM from Sins of a Solar Empire Forums Sins of a Solar Empire Forums

Quoting GoaFan77,
In theory they just might be stupid and think 1 is the best score.

Stupid maybe... He definitely would have chose 0 had he been able.

But hey, he was just being honest telling me how shitty my stuff was and I should have just taken it professionally... Because, hey they're the fans and I'm just the developer who should bend over for them.

Erm... no.

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September 14, 2012 11:38:05 AM from Sins of a Solar Empire Forums Sins of a Solar Empire Forums

The only criticism I have of Rebellion are minor....

Titans retaining XP after death, and I feel they come out to early in game.

I also wish the rebel and loyalist factions would have gotten a different new capital ship.

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September 14, 2012 11:44:05 AM from Sins of a Solar Empire Forums Sins of a Solar Empire Forums

I agree that the Titan research is too early.  I would prefer if it started at tier 3, myself.

-Twi

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September 14, 2012 11:50:41 AM from Sins of a Solar Empire Forums Sins of a Solar Empire Forums

Quoting Seleuceia,
People aren't complaining about balance because "OMG I lost to teh Vasari they must be OP"....they are complaining because the factions are truly not balanced...obviously you don't agree (or don't care), but I can assure you there is a reason Vasari Rebels are banned from most MP games, and it isn't because some people lost a few games to them and didn't bother to try and find counters....

I'm going to guess you don't play much competitive MP games....that's totally fine, and no one has any right to tell you you're dumb for enjoying SP....but you also have no right to insult highly skilled MP guys who understand this game to a very high degree and recognize the severe balance issues...

It's one thing for you to say the balance is "good enough" for most players (who are SP and/or do comp stomps with friends)...it is entirely different for you to criticize skilled players for bringing attention to balance issues within the game...you are just as bad as the MP people who get pissy at noobs simply because they enjoy the SP experience and don't care about MP...

Some FYIs you may or may not be aware of:


Modding doesn't solve anything for the MP experience...it would be near to impossible to get consensus from all MP players on what balance changes should be made and how the mod should be distributed/updated...if there is a severe balance issue, you can make a mod to fix it if you want, but that isn't going to do you any good when trying to play with random people on ICO
The AI is not "clever"...it actually gets ridiculous cheats which seem to be exacerbated by changes in late diplomacy and rebellion....now that the AI actually builds superweapons and titans/corvettes make it harder to surive when outnumbered, their resource cheat becomes significantly more apparent...the AI gets technologies for free without the required labs, and because of their resource cheat can spam culture centers with no need for trade ports or refineries...the AI has a "playstyle" that is so grossly unrealistic that it just isn't even fun anymore....it's not that it's too hard, it's that it is so different from how you the human have to play the game...it's like you playing chess against someone who is playing checkers...
Many players enjoy games with variability....unfortunately, Titans have reduced variability because there is a limited number of fleet compositions that are effective....regardless of faction, bomber spam with some support ships has become the way to go late game...it isn't just about balance, players (both SP and MP) are tired of the same ol' strategy again and again and again

There are many forum members, including myself, that involve themselves with SP, MP, and modding...and you are trying to tell us to just "deal with it"...the audacity you have...

 

He wasn't insulting anybody.  He was giving his opinion.  He didn't once say that the MP guys just had to deal with it.  You put quotation marks around "deal with it", indicating he said that, but he didn't.  He was complementing IronClad on a great game.

Who peed in your cereal this morning?

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September 14, 2012 12:05:35 PM from Sins of a Solar Empire Forums Sins of a Solar Empire Forums

Quoting Seleuceia,

There are many forum members, including myself, that involve themselves with SP, MP, and modding...and you are trying to tell us to just "deal with it"...the audacity you have...

 

 

No, the audacity you have for misquoting me!!!  What I said before everyone got so upset was "Learn to mod or deal with it"!  That is entirely different to what you are trying to imply I said!   I totally support modding, and what I said was people should stop complaining about something they don't like and just learn to make a mod instead of trolling on here about it constantly!!! 

I know people on here are trying very hard to make the game as perfectly balanced as possible, and I totally support that.... what I do NOT support is this endless stream of useless threads that just complain and don't offer anything constructive!  

 

 

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September 14, 2012 12:20:32 PM from Sins of a Solar Empire Forums Sins of a Solar Empire Forums

Quoting LupusVir,

He wasn't insulting anybody. He was giving his opinion. He didn't once say that the MP guys just had to deal with it. You put quotation marks around "deal with it", indicating he said that, but he didn't. He was complementing IronClad on a great game.

The OP actually changed around the time Sareth and I were writing our posts (it was originally a whole rant of several paragraphs)....the original OP was very condescending and basically was a blanket judgement about all the threads discussing balance and suggestions to this game...in so many words, he basically said that anyone who has issues with balance either isn't good enough to simply learn the counters or is just being too nit picky....

I don't recall the exact wording but he most certainly had a statement very much along the lines of "if you don't like the balance then make a mod or just deal with it"...I by no means misquoted him and did not take it out of context...

I understand why it's not implemented (considering mod OPs change all the time), but it's time like these I wish you could see edits for the OP....

The original OP was far more than just a casual compliment to Starclad...it was the same bullshit that's shown the SP community has just as much asshatry and ignorance as the MP community...it just boggles my mind how you could get upset at people who make genuine efforts to improve the game and expand the Sins community...the people who actually troll and make no contributions to the community are few and far between, and it is outrageously unfair to criticize all balance discussions and requests simply because there are a few trolls or unskilled players who don't know how to counter everything....

Since you don't have the original OP to look at, of course you have no reason to believe me, so I shall defer to the first 3 replies as well as Sareth's reply (the one after mine) that all seem to refer to a very different OP than the one currently visible....

 

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