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Sins II - Is It Off The Table?

5 Years is a good run for Sins I, but how much more can you milk out of it?

By on November 30, 2013 8:28:22 PM from Sins of a Solar Empire Forums Sins of a Solar Empire Forums

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There are numerous topics on the forums revolving around the future of Sins, and the likelihood of a follow-up version utilizing multi-threading and other improvements.  With some 5 years under the belt of Sins I, isn't it time to start anticipating its end of cycle?  Really, how much more mileage can you get out of it with DLC?  Surely, expansions are off the table, but where is the development of Sins II at present?

Let's hear some relative discussion about the potential for capitalizing on a new release, along with the actual obstacles to a viable Sins II.

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November 30, 2013 9:54:12 PM from Stardock Forums Stardock Forums

along with the actual obstacles to a viable Sins II

Ironclad doesn't have enough people to develop two games at once.

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December 1, 2013 4:41:02 AM from Sins of a Solar Empire Forums Sins of a Solar Empire Forums

Quoting kryo,


along with the actual obstacles to a viable Sins II

Ironclad doesn't have enough people to develop two games at once.

Vs. you guys "co-developing" Rebellion with them.  I've said it before, and I'll say it again, whatever sequel to Rebellion we'll get will be co-developed by you guys (and by proxy, a Stardock Entertainment title vs. a IC one).

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December 1, 2013 8:48:22 AM from Sins of a Solar Empire Forums Sins of a Solar Empire Forums

Quoting XATHOS,


Quoting kryo, reply 1

along with the actual obstacles to a viable Sins II

Ironclad doesn't have enough people to develop two games at once.
Vs. you guys "co-developing" Rebellion with them.  I've said it before, and I'll say it again, whatever sequel to Rebellion we'll get will be co-developed by you guys (and by proxy, a Stardock Entertainment title vs. a IC one).

Except Stardock is currently working on GalCiv III.

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December 1, 2013 2:29:31 PM from Sins of a Solar Empire Forums Sins of a Solar Empire Forums

I'm thinking spring 2018.

Just when I plan to retire.

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December 2, 2013 3:49:04 AM from Sins of a Solar Empire Forums Sins of a Solar Empire Forums

Quoting Ryat,

Except Stardock is currently working on GalCiv III.


And you think they can't work on both?  They still got money to burn as needed.

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December 2, 2013 6:29:53 AM from Sins of a Solar Empire Forums Sins of a Solar Empire Forums

Quoting XATHOS,


Quoting Ryat, reply 3
Except Stardock is currently working on GalCiv III.

And you think they can't work on both?  They still got money to burn as needed.

 

I wonder if Frogboy feels the same, hehe. Somehow i doubt it. They are not EA.

 

But yeah, they probably can work on more games at once.

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December 2, 2013 10:00:34 AM from Stardock Forums Stardock Forums

Quoting XATHOS,


Quoting Ryat, reply 3
Except Stardock is currently working on GalCiv III.

And you think they can't work on both?  They still got money to burn as needed.

You're assuming we're only working on Galc Civ III and nothing else.

 

 

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December 2, 2013 11:24:15 AM from Sins of a Solar Empire Forums Sins of a Solar Empire Forums

Quoting XATHOS,


Quoting kryo, reply 1

along with the actual obstacles to a viable Sins II

Ironclad doesn't have enough people to develop two games at once.
Vs. you guys "co-developing" Rebellion with them.  I've said it before, and I'll say it again, whatever sequel to Rebellion we'll get will be co-developed by you guys (and by proxy, a Stardock Entertainment title vs. a IC one).

And has anyone besides yourself said anything to back this up? Everything we've heard from SD and Blair seem to suggest the ball is mostly in Ironclad's court.

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December 2, 2013 1:51:40 PM from Sins of a Solar Empire Forums Sins of a Solar Empire Forums

Quoting Island Dog,

You're assuming we're only working on Galc Civ III and nothing else.
 

Interesting statement. Should we expect any new developments in the next 4 - 6 months?

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December 3, 2013 1:25:28 AM from Sins of a Solar Empire Forums Sins of a Solar Empire Forums

Quoting Island Dog,

You're assuming we're only working on Galc Civ III and nothing else.

I presume you guys as a mid tier publisher and developer of games.  You guys can work on multiple titles.  We already know that Star Control and GalCiv 3 are pre-alpha.  I do recall talk of trying out an RPG (maybe Elemental series related).  I also figure something involving a new Sins iteration (at least, DLC) is also being worked on.  I can't speak to anything else.

I'm also interested in seeing what has been canceled in the last 5 years.

Quoting GoaFan77,

And has anyone besides yourself said anything to back this up? Everything we've heard from SD and Blair seem to suggest the ball is mostly in Ironclad's court.

And how much of the original Sins work was offloaded elsewhere?  Do you honestly believe IC was able to handle ALL the aspects of the game, themselves?  Aside from talking about design ideas, concept art could have been worked on.  This still counts as work towards the goal.

I've said this before, and I'll say it again, I really wish IC didn't start work on a MOBA.  It's a serious waste of time and resources to work on something, in that genre, when DOTA and LOL have such HUGE market shares.  If Sins of a Dark Age was a spiritual spinoff in a fantasy/medieval theme (like Total Annihilation with the Kingdoms entry), that'd be fine, but I feel they're wasting good development time with this.  I should also note that Stardock is NOT publishing this game with them.  I'm pretty sure there is a reason behind this (see lesson learned with Demigod, which even came out before LOL and DOTA 2).

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December 3, 2013 6:49:43 AM from Sins of a Solar Empire Forums Sins of a Solar Empire Forums

Quoting XATHOS,


Quoting Island Dog, reply 7
You're assuming we're only working on Galc Civ III and nothing else.
I presume you guys as a mid tier publisher and developer of games.  You guys can work on multiple titles.  We already know that Star Control and GalCiv 3 are pre-alpha.  I do recall talk of trying out an RPG (maybe Elemental series related).  I also figure something involving a new Sins iteration (at least, DLC) is also being worked on.  I can't speak to anything else.

I'm also interested in seeing what has been canceled in the last 5 years.

Quoting GoaFan77, reply 8
And has anyone besides yourself said anything to back this up? Everything we've heard from SD and Blair seem to suggest the ball is mostly in Ironclad's court.
And how much of the original Sins work was offloaded elsewhere?  Do you honestly believe IC was able to handle ALL the aspects of the game, themselves?  Aside from talking about design ideas, concept art could have been worked on.  This still counts as work towards the goal.

I've said this before, and I'll say it again, I really wish IC didn't start work on a MOBA.  It's a serious waste of time and resources to work on something, in that genre, when DOTA and LOL have such HUGE market shares.  If Sins of a Dark Age was a spiritual spinoff in a fantasy/medieval theme (like Total Annihilation with the Kingdoms entry), that'd be fine, but I feel they're wasting good development time with this.  I should also note that Stardock is NOT publishing this game with them.  I'm pretty sure there is a reason behind this (see lesson learned with Demigod, which even came out before LOL and DOTA 2).

 

I sort of agree with this, but i can definitely see why they wanted to work on something else for a change. I dont get those companies, which produce just sequels to their games over and over. 

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December 3, 2013 11:29:28 AM from Sins of a Solar Empire Forums Sins of a Solar Empire Forums

Quoting XATHOS,

I've said this before, and I'll say it again, I really wish IC didn't start work on a MOBA. It's a serious waste of time and resources to work on something, in that genre, when DOTA and LOL have such HUGE market shares. If Sins of a Dark Age was a spiritual spinoff in a fantasy/medieval theme (like Total Annihilation with the Kingdoms entry), that'd be fine, but I feel they're wasting good development time with this. I should also note that Stardock is NOT publishing this game with them. I'm pretty sure there is a reason behind this (see lesson learned with Demigod, which even came out before LOL and DOTA 2).

IC wants to diversify; sticking with S0aSE for too long would give them the image of a one-trick pony. That said, an MOBA might not have been the best choice, but the reasoning behind it does have logic to it.

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December 3, 2013 3:39:17 PM from Sins of a Solar Empire Forums Sins of a Solar Empire Forums

Quoting XATHOS,
And how much of the original Sins work was offloaded elsewhere?  Do you honestly believe IC was able to handle ALL the aspects of the game, themselves?  Aside from talking about design ideas, concept art could have been worked on.  This still counts as work towards the goal.

Well Yes. Stardock may have helped out with a few things, and that's more than what most publishers do, but it was clearly their engine, their universe, and ultimately their call. After all, IC was working on Sins before Stardock agreed to publish it.

 

Quoting XATHOS,
I should also note that Stardock is NOT publishing this game with them. 

Yes, Ironclad making an entire game by themselves. Imagine that. 

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December 3, 2013 4:16:52 PM from Sins of a Solar Empire Forums Sins of a Solar Empire Forums

Why are you guys pushing for this so much? Seems like some people want to be impatient, and rush this title out so that it will become an incomplete half ass mess that damn near every other sequel is. Fan Pressure pushing to rush a product out the door long before it is finished. So we can get another Sim City, SoTS 2, or X Rebirth. Pretty much beer coasters, or a waste of bandwidth now. We have enough nefarious game company's making half ass games intentionally. Dont push for this one to be an unintentional failure.

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December 3, 2013 4:49:47 PM from Sins of a Solar Empire Forums Sins of a Solar Empire Forums

Quoting Major Stress,

Why are you guys pushing for this so much? Seems like some people want to be impatient, and rush this title out so that it will become an incomplete half ass mess that damn near every other sequel is. Fan Pressure pushing to rush a product out the door long before it is finished. So we can get another Sim City, SoTS 2, or X Rebirth. Pretty much beer coasters, or a waste of bandwidth now. We have enough nefarious game company's making half ass games intentionally. Dont push for this one to an unintentional failure.

This.

Besides, I don't plan on upgrading my computer until I get my degree in April 2015 so my machine (likely) wouldn't be able to handle a Sins 2 until then. Mind you, I wouldn't mind an announcement from Ironclad and/or Stardock that said "yo everybody, we're going to make Sins of a Solar Empire 2 we just don't know when it will happen but it's on the table.".

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December 3, 2013 8:27:37 PM from Sins of a Solar Empire Forums Sins of a Solar Empire Forums

Quoting GoaFan77,

Well Yes. Stardock may have helped out with a few things, and that's more than what most publishers do, but it was clearly their engine, their universe, and ultimately their call. After all, IC was working on Sins before Stardock agreed to publish it.

I never was talking about Stardock.  If they did anything as a publisher, they put forward funding needed to complete the game and market it. 

I'm talking about independent people they brought in (contracted to do or flat out bought work from) for such things like music or art assets they couldn't do inhouse.  This is common practice for small studios.  For example: http://www.spiderwebsoftware.com/come_aboard.html (check the bottom).  They regularly put games on Steam, and despite being around for 20 years, they're still taking in external work.  This isn't anything new.

Yes, Ironclad making an entire game by themselves. Imagine that.

Aside from what I talked about above, not per say.  They aren't self publishing.  IGP (http://infinitegamepublishing.com/), the same guys that helped fund MWO and Tactics, is funding this.  In other words, they're helping produce the game.  IC isn't doing it alone.  This is the common model of game development.  This is usually how things work.


Why are you guys pushing for this so much? Seems like some people want to be impatient, and rush this title out so that it will become an incomplete half ass mess that damn near every other sequel is. Fan Pressure pushing to rush a product out the door long before it is finished. So we can get another Sim City, SoTS 2, or X Rebirth. Pretty much beer coasters, or a waste of bandwidth now. We have enough nefarious game company's making half ass games intentionally. Dont push for this one to be an unintentional failure.


I'm not arguing for them to push it out NOW, but the original game came out in Feb. 2008.  Even if you count the release of all the "microexpansions" that they did, the last one came out in Jan. 2010.  Ignoring Rebellion (which, I've I stated before, is a Stardock Entertainment developed title, not really a IC one), it's going on 4 years since the last content release from that studio (I'm not counting Dark Age).  The hope is, that the next Sins iteration would be, at least, in production (which will probable be co-developed, again).

The success of Sins created an audience who wants the full realization of the game.  This won't be seen until the second generation of the product, though.  Technical limitations are about the only thing that killed the experience.  This isn't anything new.  You can see this in Terraria, but the "spiritual successor" seen in Starbound (Terraria 2 is in development, though), will be the realization of that and hosts HUGE support from that audience. 

You can see another example with Crusader Kings II.  By the time Paradox got the Clausewitz Engine hammered down, they earned a hell of a lot of praise with the release of CKII, and earned a SHITLOAD of income from that.  They got even more praise with the newest release of the companion series, Europa Universalis IV.  The virtue of fact that you can have a savegame go from 867 all the way to 1821 AD, across two similar, but different games, is very impressive.  Despite the close release of EUIV after CKII, you'll be very hard pressed to find a single fan bitching about them "making the wrong decision".

My point being, small studios succeed or fail on a release-by-release basis.  They know what will earn them the income they need to have the freedom to do what they won't, but they aren't doing it.  Working on a MOBA is a bad business decision.  Even if it's a good MOBA, it'll still be stifled in a market dominated by LOL and DOTA.  Nobody is asking for a MOBA from the guys who made a 4X space strategy.  Every fan of Sins is wanting a new iteration to the series they love, that can exceed those inherent technical problems.  You tell me which one is a better decision to make? 

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December 3, 2013 9:32:45 PM from Sins of a Solar Empire Forums Sins of a Solar Empire Forums

Quoting XATHOS,
I never was talking about Stardock.  If they did anything as a publisher, they put forward funding needed to complete the game and market it.

Quoting XATHOS,
I've said it before, and I'll say it again, whatever sequel to Rebellion we'll get will be co-developed by you guys (and by proxy, a Stardock Entertainment title vs. a IC one).

Well you were talking about them right here.

Quoting XATHOS,
I'm talking about independent people they brought in (contracted to do or flat out bought work from) for such things like music or art assets they couldn't do inhouse.

Well yes, of course they do that. I'm pretty sure the music and voice overs for Sins was done this way, but that doesn't take away any control from IC over the project, which was what I thought this conversation was about.

Because I don't think we're having the same conversation, let me summarize all the points here. OP asks what is in the way of making Sins II. A Stardock employee replies what we all know, that they can't make 2 games at once. While Sins of a Dark Age is being worked on, Ironclad cannot seriously be working on the new engine Sins II would require or the art assets. You then say something about co-development with Stardock. I then ask for any evidence that would indicate Sins II would be like this and none of your next responses seem relevant.

 

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December 3, 2013 9:48:56 PM from Sins of a Solar Empire Forums Sins of a Solar Empire Forums

Quoting GoaFan77,

Well you were talking about them right here.

That's two different quotes taken out of context.


Because I don't think we're having the same conversation, let me summarize all the points here. OP asks what is in the way of making Sins II. A Stardock employee replies what we all know, that they can't make 2 games at once. While Sins of a Dark Age is being worked on, Ironclad cannot seriously be working on the new engine Sins II would require or the art assets. You then say something about co-development with Stardock. I then ask for any evidence that would indicate Sins II would be like this and none of your next responses seem relevant.

Lulz, what?

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December 3, 2013 9:50:52 PM from Sins of a Solar Empire Forums Sins of a Solar Empire Forums

Ironclad could have jumped right into Sins 2 two years ago,and we would have had half the add-ons we currently have.

And we would be waiting for a Sins 3.

The later it is the better it will be.

Beside's we all want it in x64 bit.

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December 4, 2013 7:04:11 AM from Sins of a Solar Empire Forums Sins of a Solar Empire Forums

Quoting Major Stress,
Why are you guys pushing for this so much? Seems like some people want to be impatient, and rush this title out so that it will become an incomplete half ass mess that damn near every other sequel is. Fan Pressure pushing to rush a product out the door long before it is finished. So we can get another Sim City, SoTS 2, or X Rebirth. Pretty much beer coasters, or a waste of bandwidth now. We have enough nefarious game company's making half ass games intentionally. Dont push for this one to be an unintentional failure.

Major, do you really think "fan pressure" is to blame for these "poor releases"?  I mean seriously...you are telling me EA rushed SimCity because they just couldn't resist the excitement from their fans? 

At worst you are blaming the fans for poor game releases...at best you are blaming companies for listening to their fans too much and caving in to their demands...I find this particularly ironic given that when you look at the types of complaints leveraged against these games, they tend to revolve around fans either complaining the game was rushed or complaining that the devs don't listen to the community...

If a game is rushed, it is not because the fans are impatient or overzealous...if a game is rushed, it's because of financial woes or because the company knows that a particular game will still sell well even if it is rushed...our impatience as fans has nothing to do with it...

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December 4, 2013 10:56:31 AM from Sins of a Solar Empire Forums Sins of a Solar Empire Forums

Now probably isn't a bad time for Starclad to start thinking about Sins II, but it wouldn't be a good time to start development. The recent revival of the Homeworld franchise has the potential to slightly impinge on a potential Sins II's sales in the short term, but in the long term it can be leveraged in Sins II's favor, as people start looking for something new.

If we assume for a moment that this is a significant factor (for the sake of argument), what I would expect to see is the periodic release of DLC to keep the core community active, with a Sins II release timed to leverage Homeworld fatigue.

There are probably other factors Starclad are weighing, but I have a hard time imagining any that would make them want to start Sins II sooner rather than later.

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December 4, 2013 11:14:34 AM from Sins of a Solar Empire Forums Sins of a Solar Empire Forums

Quoting Seleuceia,


Quoting Major Stress, reply 14Why are you guys pushing for this so much? Seems like some people want to be impatient, and rush this title out so that it will become an incomplete half ass mess that damn near every other sequel is. Fan Pressure pushing to rush a product out the door long before it is finished. So we can get another Sim City, SoTS 2, or X Rebirth. Pretty much beer coasters, or a waste of bandwidth now. We have enough nefarious game company's making half ass games intentionally. Dont push for this one to be an unintentional failure.

Major, do you really think "fan pressure" is to blame for these "poor releases"?  I mean seriously...you are telling me EA rushed SimCity because they just couldn't resist the excitement from their fans? 

At worst you are blaming the fans for poor game releases...at best you are blaming companies for listening to their fans too much and caving in to their demands...I find this particularly ironic given that when you look at the types of complaints leveraged against these games, they tend to revolve around fans either complaining the game was rushed or complaining that the devs don't listen to the community...

If a game is rushed, it is not because the fans are impatient or overzealous...if a game is rushed, it's because of financial woes or because the company knows that a particular game will still sell well even if it is rushed...our impatience as fans has nothing to do with it...

 

I am not blaming anyone, or anything right now. I am just pointing out what "could possibly happen". Homeworld 2 (the campaign not the game itself) sucked, because it was rushed. Primarily because of "fan pressure". Does anyone remember Relics old PR guy meltdown over HW2? That is just one example. However. You are correct. Games suck because the developers really don't give a damn, and rush them out just to make a quick buck. Ether that or they release a game half finished, because they had a "deadline" (more like ran out of cash). So they release a broken game. Then patch it up later. Worse case is that the publisher forces a developer to release too early. The developer says the game is not ready yet, but the publisher will hear none of it, and demand the game to be released. All of which equals pissed off fans. Regardless of the scenario.

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December 4, 2013 12:18:06 PM from Sins of a Solar Empire Forums Sins of a Solar Empire Forums

Major Stress just quoted Seleuceia quoting Major Stress.

He just ripped a hole in the space time calliope creating a Temporal Pair of Sox.   

 

backs out of the room slowly...  

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December 4, 2013 9:40:20 PM from Sins of a Solar Empire Forums Sins of a Solar Empire Forums

What we really need is Aresiv quoting major quoting me quoting major...and putting in different colored commentary inside the nested quotes....

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December 4, 2013 10:58:45 PM from Sins of a Solar Empire Forums Sins of a Solar Empire Forums

You just blew my mind!  

 

I give you this picture of a mouse eating cheese as my way of saying thank you.  # < 3

 

backs out of the room slowly...  

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