Phase Highways in space is a bad game concept!

from Sins Forums
I really don't like the beta's Phase Highway system. There should be no artificially forced space highways in the game. Okay, I've said it. My friends and I were really hoping that this game would use a less constricting movement system more like MOO or Rebellion for traveling between gravity wells.

The Phase Highway concept has been bugging me since I've started playing the beta. I've been quiet about it till now (mostly) because the beta has a lot of potential in other areas. But if we don't say anything about the Phase Highways now, they will be guaranteed to be included in the final release.

Also, these developers really want to hear us. They don't want us to say "yeah, the beta is just awesome" but then we don't buy the final release because we don't like it.

Games like Space Empires and Empires at War have their own versions of Phase Highways. The problem is that they kind of suck because of it. The concept of Phase Highways has been done to death in past games. Modders especially complain about them (check out the recent modding posts in the Space Empire Forums), because forcing players to use space highways mean that they can't make proper mods for Star Wars, Star Trek, Babylon 5, Battlestar Galactica, and so on.

By getting rid of Phase Highway limitations, SoaSE will be purchased by ALL of the space modders out there. I know for a fact that the talented Evillejedi from the Homeworld 2 Star Wars mod is keeping his eye on SoaSE to see if it has any potential. The game would also see a serious increase of its shelf life because of all of the modding potential made possible.

The Phase Highway concept is used because game designers think that players need short term goals in order not to get bored/discouraged. They also think that the average player's intelligence can't handle too many choices at once. They really should acknowledgment that SciFi gamers are smarter than other gamers and that we would welcome more choice and potential. Besides, players can still choose to play on small maps if they want.

Let's briefly examine how the game could work without using any Phase Highways and instead allowed ships to travel wherever they wanted to go. Of course, Phase Space itself should still be the means of traveling between gravity wells as it is a good game concept.


-To see the other destination gravity wells in your home star system, Astronomy could become a researchable technology. The higher the level you have in Astronomy, the further your planets/asteroids/ships could see possible gravity well destinations.

-Allies should share gravity well destination points. Hmmm, maybe you could even sell/buy gravity well destination points in the trade menu.

-Stars should probably always be valid destination points regardless of your Astronomy Tech level, since they are so easy to see. Hmmm, you might make it so you have to jump to another star before you can initially see any of the planets in its orbit (somewhat realistic even).

-There should be an option to turn off Astronomy and allow players to see all planets/asteroids. Players would then be able to jump to whatever destination they wanted right from the start. This would mostly be used by modders and professional multiplayers.

-Some people might worry that defensive strategies without Phase Lanes would become impossible. This simply isn't the case. With sensors (and audio warnings), you can be warned of incoming enemy fleets as the beta already does. Defending players should be able to see the destination point of the incoming fleet. If they are trying to reach your inner planets by bypassing your outer worlds, you'll be able to send a suitable intercept fleet to the contested system. Your fleet is going to be closer and so will arrive first. If certain ships can be equipped with Phase Space Inhibitors, that would prevent invading fleets from endlessly jumping around in your back lines. Of course, you could also build Phase Space Inhibitor platforms in your back lines as well to prevent leapfrogging hostile fleets.

*Modders should have the option of removing the long range warning sensors that show incoming enemy ships to help them build more accurate mods. Or possibly make them a research option.

-If people have trouble dealing with multiple incoming fleets...well, they realistically should have trouble sending interception fleets to deal with multiple attacking empires at once. Still, SoaSE has a good AI, and your ships can handle themselves while you are focusing elsewhere. So handling multiple incoming attackers at once won't be as fatal for you as it would be in other lesser games.

-I suppose that Phase Space travel speed could be slowed down a bit if players find they have trouble organizing multiple defense and attack fleets. You might even allow a research tech that messes with Phase Space and slows travel through it. Or your ships might be allowed to travel a bit faster when traveling in Phase Space inside your empire's borders (they would have a better grasp of local phase space conditions).

-Finally, if absolutely necessary, the distance ships can jump in Phase Space could be tied to a tech level. The higher the tech level, the further your ships can jump. I know you don't want to use Anti Matter as a limiter for Phase Space jumps, so I didn't bother mentioning a fuel range.

So, please remove the Phase Space Highways. They are standing between this game being a good game, and one of those all time great games that set the benchmark for years to come. Please tell me Blair that you guys are considering doing this.

Posters who've read this and agree with me, now is the time for you to speak up. They might be able to make a serious gameplay change like this now, but they won't be able to do it when the game nears release.
75,886 views 211 replies
Reply #1 from Sins Forums Top
I'll just quote my response here:
I'm definitely positive about a change in the phase space travel system in Beta 1. It's not that I hate the phase lane system, but I think I would enjoy having more freedom about where to go.

It would be possible to keep the phase lanes though, as they could provide more efficient travel between planets, making it preferable (but not necessary) to have your empire connected by the lanes. Or maybe it could be possible to build structures connecting nearby systems (both in your control) that set up a phase lane, thus allowing for slightly more efficient travel within your empire. This would help getting intercepting fleets where they need to be.

Perhaps a separate post would be best for this as you (Paradoxnt) said? It would be nice to see what others think.

Personally I don't play multiplayer games, but this certainly seems like it would add some dynamics to multiplayer.
Reply #2 from Sins Forums Top
It's certainly an interesting idea, and the way you've described it makes it seem quite compelling. I have to admit, this would bring a good deal of complexity to the game, and could really open up tactical and strategic options. I'm not sure what sort of impact that would have on the gameplay, but I'd be interested to find out!
Ashes of the Singularity II
Reply #3 from Sins Forums Top
I don't think the highways should GO...but I think that you should be allowed to choose when not to use them.

Having to move through three planets just to get to the one you want when a short cut across open space is quicker could get annoying.
Reply #4 from Sins Forums Top

I don't think the highways should GO...but I think that you should be allowed to choose when not to use them.

Having to move through three planets just to get to the one you want when a short cut across open space is quicker could get annoying.


aah yeah, THAT i can totaly agree on. Lanes should stay, but there should also be the possibility of not using them, that would give some sort of penalty when moving
Reply #5 from Sins Forums Top
DRavisher is absolutely on the ball with his idea. Great idea! Players should have the choice of building platforms that can create and maintain Phase Highways between selected colonies.

This way, using normal Phase Space Jump Drives, our ships have the freedom to go where we want them too (baring possible range limitations based on tech level or the number of destinations that they can actually see). And, for increasing range and travel speed for FRIENDLY ships, we can create Phase Highways between colonies.

Wow, that opens up a lot more strategic options.
Reply #6 from Sins Forums Top
I also spoke about that topic in a different thread along the lines of DRavisher's post:

Capital ships can jump into phase space as they wish. Smaller ships however can't. They need some structure to get them launched.
Advantages:
Enemies can't hop around your empire endlessly.
There is no artificial movement restriction. Movement is restricted using a sensful system that is based on the actions of the player.
(No more: "Why can't I travel from planet E to F?" - "Because the devs didn't allow it."
But: "Why can't I travel from planet E to F?" - "Because you didn't build a gate-thingy." That is a lot nicer for players.)
New strategies come into play. Say you own planet A, enemy owns planet B. The enemy constantly sends troops to your planet. To counter this you detach a few ships, jump them to planet B and attack their space-lane-jump-startpoint-thingy. You may lose a couple of ships, but the enemy can't bring in ships anymore until he constructs a new gate.
Modding-wise the "Jump-without-structure"-ability could be assigned to all ships, and the gameplay structure disappears for those who don't want it.
Disadvantages:
If you want the range of lanes to be limited you need to fill space with some more rocks/asteroids to have a sensful reason to say: "No, you can't make a lane to the other side of the galaxy."

The system has room for new special abilities, like 'Hack space lane structure' or 'Jump together with all ships within radius' for specific capital ships.
* Disclaimer: System basically copied from Freelancer. Though I modified it to not be "jump from structure to structure", but "use one structure to initiate jump in specific direction, end jump wherever you like or when you hit a big rock"
Reply #7 from Sins Forums Top
Hi Paradoxnt. I've seen some of your posts lately and you have some good ideas. I like how you aren't afraid to say what is really wrong with the beta. I also liked how you said developers need to be told that they can aim higher with strategy space games because we really are smarter than the average gamer.

I've given up on playing the beta because of these phased space 'highways'. I've played Space Empires 4 a few years back (there is a new one out I hear) because my buddies thought it would have good multiplayer. We found the warp points really lame and limiting. Well, these SoaSE highways are just as limiting. What is the point of the cool super sized galaxy map if I have to follow the little lines like some kind of dummy? If I wanted that, I could get a copy of Space Empires 4 off my buddy.

It wouldn't take much to make me happy with the game. If the developers at this point simply give our ships the option to phase travel without highways, I would guarantee I'd buy the game and recommend it to everyone I know.
Reply #8 from Sins Forums Top
I agree with both DRavisher and Paradoxnt. The highway system should be more of a commercial lane for higher speed of travel but the military/explorer classes should be free to travel outside the highway system with maybe a speed penalty.
Reply #9 from Sins Forums Top
guys, if the spacelanes are really just pictations of how far your ships could go anyway... then you really have no choice but to use them.
I get the feeling that more lanes will open up as you research more in the final release at least.
They don't want us to say "yeah, the beta is just awesome" but then we don't buy the final release because we don't like it.

hell, if you're in the beta, you dont have a choice.
Reply #10 from Sins Forums Top
Im not totaly against a change in how phase lanes work. But if removing em turns the game into nothing but a hit and run game, then i dont think it would be very fun.
People now complain about how enemy ships can jump around from planet to planet in your empire until you cut em off with inhibitors. Then imagin how it would work if there was no lanes. You would have to build inhibitors in every gravity well.

But why are the devs against a jump range based on some kind of fuel? If range is based purly on tech level. Then what about the end game? wont fleets be able to go every where.

But yes phase lanes as they are implementet at this time feels a bit artificial. But dont make the mistake and think that a game with infinite options is the better game vs a game with a finite set of options. Its still a real time game and that should be taken into account.

Reply #11 from Sins Forums Top
People now complain about how enemy ships can jump around from planet to planet in your empire until you cut em off with inhibitors. Then imagin how it would work if there was no lanes. You would have to build inhibitors in every gravity well.
Obviously the travel time in phase space outside the lanes would have to be quite a bit slower. It wouldn't be good to have enemy fleets appearing almost anywhere inside your empire in a matter of tens of seconds. Also, I think there should be a cool-down time between jumps, so that when you arrive in a system you can't immediately leave. Only problem is that you can never escape quickly if you're outgunned.

I'm pretty sure this is doable, and I think it would make the game a lot more interesting
Reply #12 from Sins Forums Top
I posted a reply in the beta gameplay section about this, and i totally agree with you Paradoxnt.

My thoughts on this are like yours. Do away with the lane system altogether, and make it so you can jump anywhere on the map as long as there is a gravity well present. However redo the research so that you only have limited range to start with. Then as you research jump range more then more planets, and systems will open up to you, and be in reach. Each research should be very expensive so as to avoid early tech up, or have other major pre-req's done before you can research the next tier. The "highways" should be just for trade ships, and represent nothing more than the quick, and easy route between systems

As i said in my other post i was able to completely shut down the AI by cutting off key systems on the map. It doesn't take very much to scare the AI into not wanting to attack. If you have 2 battleships, and a couple cruisers in your fleet the AI in most cases will run away regardless of the size of his fleet. I had an enemy fleet invade with a dread, a carrier and a battleship with frigate support, and it ran away when i jumped in 3 battleships, and a few cruisers. If you have a jump inhibitor, and a couple gauss guns positioned near an entry point with a small fleet stationed in a system then the AI wont attack it. This also shuts down the AI's economy as well. It cant expand so it cant attack.

Some people want to keep the lanes as they are, and thats fine, but think about how frustrating it will be in a multiplayer game where neither you nor your opponent can break through a key system. Doing away with the fixed lanes will eliminate that problem.
Reply #13 from Sins Forums Top
The lane system is here to stay.I prefer strategic choke points like most 4X games have got,you get the monster fleet on fleet battles this way.
Reply #14 from Sins Forums Top
One thing that annoys me about the game is that realistically (well, not actually realistically), your ships should be able to go from any planet you can see to any planet you can see. Also, sometimes you can jump to a planet fairly far away from the planet you are on, but not to one close by. Finally, AI ships will phase jump from planet to planet, bypassing any defenses and sometimes refusing to attack the planet even if it is completely undefended.

My suggestion, which seems to be in agreement with some other people's suggestions:

1) At the start of the game, you can see your star, your home planet, and all planets / asteroids within X distance of your home planet. You cannot, however, see any ships or structures at the star or these other planets. They are greyed out the way that planets you have visited but not colonized are in the game currently.

2) As you research technology on one branch of the tech tree, the distance X increases. This, obviously, allows you to see more planets until you can see all of the ones within your star system.

3) Ships can be ordered to jump to any planet that you can see (i.e. within current distance X). Once you have a colony on a planet, you can also see, and jump to, all planets distance X from your new colony.

4) Also, by sending ships to your sun or another star, you can see planets X distance from it. This is how you would see planets in a star system you had just jumped to.

5) Phase jump inhibitors exist as they are in the game.

6) Phase Gate Highways are built between any two planets you control. This will enable players to move ships quickly to defend an attacked planet. Also, access to your highways could be a diplomatic option.

7) This would be difficult and confusing if highways were actually visible (if you controlled 10 planets there woud be 9+8+7+6+5+4+3+2+1 = 45 highways cluttering the screen) so they would have to exist automatically and not appear on the map.
Reply #15 from Sins Forums Top
After about 10 games each around 2-3 hours , I am going to have to agree. Them space lanes are a pain in the arse... maybe leave the lanes as a method for trade and planet to planet travel, but allow ships to go to any planet ( with the proper phase jump distance research ) else they will also have to travel the phase lanes.

I dunno, but I think there are a lot better options...
Reply #16 from Sins Forums Top
Sorry about the double post above. Internet messed up.

It seems most people that post about this subject agree, and don't like the space lane concept. There are allot of good suggestions on alternatives.

There shouldn't be any "choke points" in space. Space is vast, open, and unrestrictive. You should have access any area of the map IF you have the tech researched, and your ships have the range to reach the destination. If you want to fortify a planet then fortify your capitol, and a few key planets to your economy. Especially planets with artifacts. The asteroid colony's are useless IMO other than providing some metal, and crystal resources, and should only be important in the early game. They do not provide much tax income at all. It is as it should be. They are expendable as are other low income planets (ice, volcanic, desert,). The main fighting should occur at strategic high income planets (terran, and planets with artifacts), and your main capitol. You dont see water navys using fixed "lanes" to attack/defend strategic locations. They can attack from any direction. They just need to determine which direction will benefit them the most in an attack. It is a similar concept here since most of the strategic movement is in 2D.
Reply #17 from Sins Forums Top
Very...um... interesting
Reply #18 from Sins Forums Top
There shouldn't be any "choke points" in space.


I disagree.

I personally would prefer to stay with a system with limited travel, and the potential for strategic points. Certainly there could be a high-end tech that may allow the opening of additional lanes, or circumventing such choke points by some means, but IMO that should be the exception, not the rule.

Without the lanes, there is very little "terrain" to the map, which is a vital thing for strategy in an RTS, I think. Without the potential for choke points, you would need to build up defenses at every location and keep a significant amount of your forces (all of which which you'd have to pay upkeep for, BTW) on call to deal with incursions at random points. I personally wouldn't find that fun at all.
Reply #19 from Sins Forums Top
I suppose that Phase Space travel speed could be slowed down a bit if players find they have trouble organizing multiple defense and attack fleets. You might even allow a research tech that messes with Phase Space and slows travel through it.

From what I have heard, the fleets you own will be able to micro manage themselves if you want to. An easy way to remedy this would be to tell certain fleets to warp to a system if there is a message that it will be attacked. That way, on large maps, players could still carry on an offensive without worrying about being caught compeletly of guard.

Allies should share gravity well destination points. Hmmm, maybe you could even sell/buy gravity well destination points in the trade menu.

This could be problematic since the computers might trade these between each other fairly quickly and then expand much faster than the players.(Sort of what comps did with tech in the original Gal Civ 2)

They really should acknowledgment that SciFi gamers are smarter than other gamers and that we would welcome more choice and potential


You cant 'assume' these things, I have seen more than a few idiots playing any game. The world isnt perfect you know.

And I really like the idea of 'making' phase space lanes, that way the defender will have the advantage of faster phase travel in their core worlds, while attackers would have to use more unreliable phase jump methods.

There could also be penalties for jumping out of phase lanes, but for now I think the best one would just be slower travel times.
Reply #20 from Sins Forums Top
I see your point there kyro. The question now is how do you avoid possible stalemates like the OP suggested? Research the ability to form new phase lanes maybe? As it stands right now the AI is way to easy to beat just by blockading it.
Reply #21 from Sins Forums Top
Seems we are discussing this in two different threads

To Kryo: I see where you're coming from concerning the "terrain" of the map. However, I feel this could be sufficiently solved by this idea thats been fronted by different people. To quote myself from the gameplay feedback thread:
But would that be the case if travel within your empire could be enhanced? This would give the defender time to muster a fleet to defend his planet, so any attack launched against a distant planet would be easily met with a defensive fleet.

You could for instance be able to set up spacelanes between the planets that you own (either with preset lanes like now, with self-made lanes, or maybe between any two of your colonies with the proper installation constructed). Travel using these lanes could be reasonably fast, while travel without them (which is what any attack would have to use) could be much slower. This way it would generally be a really bad idea to launch a fleet against a distant (central) enemy planet, since you would be irrevocably committing a large part of your fleet for a long time.

It would, simply put, be crazy to commit a large part of your fleet to attack a far away world, since your opponent could maybe even be able to first launch an offensive against a near planet of yours, and then still have time to reach his core world before your attacking fleet arrives. This way there is definately a certain "terrain" in the game, its just not as clearly defined as with the phase lanes. You get a much more natural border which is created by the layout of the planets themselves.

The way I see it, travel within your empire could be at a pace slightly slower than it is with the phase lanes now, while all other travel is maybe just 1/4 of the speed or less. Nobody would want to have their fleet in phase space for tens of minutes, so the only reasonable targets are going to be planets close to your borders anyway.
Reply #22 from Sins Forums Top
I see two possible changes that could be made to the phase jump system that would remove some of the "choke point defense" strategy a lot of people have been concerned with. I've been thinking about these for a couple day, and waffle back and forth on which one I like better.

Both assume the game's been changed so that you can't jump through the gravity well. I've been seeing some posts from the devs that they're looking into how to implement that. My idea would be that:

(a) Phase jumps are straight-line movement
(b) You can't travel through phase space inside the gravity well.

This leads to a mechanism where you'll get opposing hemispheres of "jump from" and "jump to" between systems. You can't always reach every "jump to" point from every "jump from" point. In fact, the only place that works is what we now think of as the jump lane.

So idea one is that the "jump lane" is a symbolic marker that you have the range to jump between those systems (and the shortest jump distance between those systems). As range increases through research, new "jump lanes" are added to the map. Each faction would have a different set of lanes, since they could have different research levels and/or faction abilities that would increase range.

If you just click the move between systems order, it'll default to shortest time (which would be the current lane). If you hold the mouse click and drag left or right, you'd move the emergence point clockwise or counter-clockwise around the gravity well semicircle you could jump to. For a multi-system move, you'd optimize fleet travel for shortest time until that final jump where you'd hit the location you specified.

The time it takes to travel in phase space would probably have to increase some to make the jump lane strategically important. However, if you're invading a system, you could take the time penalty and emerge along the system rim where the opponent hasn't placed fixed defenses.

Idea two ties the jump lane to a pair of gate structures. Small ships (frigate class and trade vessels) must use the gates. They're too small to mount full-up jump drives and weapons and everything else. Capital ships can jump without gates, using the same mechanism as idea one. As you research range increases, you can build your own gates to link previously unconnected systems (if you own both systems).

This makes the frigate-class vessels exploration and system defense vessels. The heavier frigates could be used in an attack of a lightly defended gate. Heavy fixed defenses would require a capital ship fleet (they could come in out of range and flank the fixed defenses). If a system has heavy fixed defenses, a large mobile fleet, and there's no other path around it, you should be stuck.

Idea two also gives some uniqueness to the cruiser versus heavy frigate. They might have similar combat power, but the cruiser can be used in independent raids, like the cruiser class was intended to do.
Reply #23 from Sins Forums Top
I agree with paradoxnt, DRavisher, Major Stress, Lordkosc, Jamaildrn...well, actually almost all the posters here. The forced phase laneways need to become more optional.

I like the idea of planet locations having to be found through scouting, research and allied information. Then your ships can travel directly to those locations without having to use phase laneways.

Phase laneways instead should be created by installations that link up your other colonies that also have built such installations. Your ships, trade ships and allied ships then will all travel way more quickly along these paths. This will help the defender get his ships in place to ward off enemy attacks. When you are allied with players/AI, their phase lane installations should link up with yours..as long as they stay friendly, of course.

Ashbery76 seems worried that huge fleets won't fight each other if there are no forced artificial choke points. In the above idea, nothing prevents you from moving your fleet to intercept incoming fleets = Big battles will result!

Also by getting rid of the choke points, this will allow players/AI to interact with each other totally. As it is, you can only really interact with the player who holds the choke point next to yours = multiplayer teams won't even be able to reach each other or combine fleets unless they are lucky enough to start right next to each other (way too forced and unnatural).

Get rid of forced phase laneways.
Reply #24 from Sins Forums Top
Space lanes WITHIN solar systems do seem overly contrived, there is no real need to explain-away the possibility of flying from planet to planet within a system. Even if they serve some level of game-play purpose, this would be reduced if we also reduce the number of planets per system.

Space lanes BETWEEN solar systems make more sense to be because you DO have to explain-away inter steller travell since we cannot currently conceive of how this would be practical.

If we limit the space lanes to inter-stellar travell then we get to have more freedom within systems while maintaining the function of "choke points."

Also. at least one of the posters above suggested constructed space lanes as opposed to "natural ones." This makes more sense, especially if the "phase" lanes are supposed to establish a phase transformation upon a space from another space. Such a transmition must be digital rather than analoge (which is limited by physcical waves) and so there must be a machine on the other side that imposes an isomorphic mapping from space A to space B. This, of course, is not so much travell as much as teleporatation.
Reply #25 from Sins Forums Top
But would that be the case if travel within your empire could be enhanced? This would give the defender time to muster a fleet to defend his planet, so any attack launched against a distant planet would be easily met with a defensive fleet.

You could for instance be able to set up spacelanes between the planets that you own (either with preset lanes like now, with self-made lanes, or maybe between any two of your colonies with the proper installation constructed). Travel using these lanes could be reasonably fast, while travel without them (which is what any attack would have to use) could be much slower. This way it would generally be a really bad idea to launch a fleet against a distant (central) enemy planet, since you would be irrevocably committing a large part of your fleet for a long time.


Allowing faster response by defenders doesn't negate that problem at all, it just lets you move the 'on-call' fleet faster. You still would need to build defenses everywhere, amass an on-call fleet, and pay upkeep on all that regardless.