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Siege Frigate and Pirate tips for newer players!

Siege Frigate and Pirate tips for newer players!

It's not *all* BS, I promise!

Hiya folks! With the recent release of Sins there have been a lot of posts on the forums about the difficulty of dealing with pirates, and AI siege frigate raids. Instead of arguing in each and every post, I figured why not make one with tips on how to deal with them, instead!

First, let me give you some background. In beta, the AI sucked to put it plainly. It was a walk in the park, and it barely did anything. We badgered Ironclad so much to improve it, constantly offering scenarios and feedback of the "well, this is what the AI should do in this case" type. And, Ironclad listened! The new AIs are sneakier, deadlier, and much more fun than the beta AI ever was.

I encourage everyone to realize that the AI was made difficult purposefully, and that new players should not expect to be able to beat it right off the bat. There’s a lot to this game that you can only figure out through practice and experience – especially if you deal with Hard AI.

Having said that, here are some tips (both "strategic" in terms of gameplay, and "combat") on dealing with both sources of frustration for our newer players:

Siege frigates

- First and foremost, make sure to Upgrade your front-line planets with Emergency Infrastructure. This helps immensely and will save you a lot of hair. Most planets can have 6,000 hp (asteroids have 2,500 max) fully upgraded. That’s a LOT of HP for siege frigates to chew through.

- Try not to have asteroids as your front line planets if you can avoid it! Because fully upgraded asteroids only have 2,500 hp compared to 6,000 for planets, they are a lot easier for roaming Siege groups to destroy. Look at the map, try to find a nice "choke point" planet (ideally this would be a planet that’s the only entrance to your inner empire around the area). Don’t expand past it at first. Get your fleet there, colonize it, upgrade it so it has maxed hp.

- Watch the phase lanes and build defenses! Scout ahead, know where your AI enemy is. This makes it easier to predict where he’ll be coming from. There is some variation of where attacking ships will come out of phase space, but it’s ALWAYS somewhere around the phase lane. Build lots of defenses very close to your planet around that area. The AI is not going to maneuver siege frigates to go around your defenses. He’ll charge right in, and get blasted to bits.

- Most planets have 35 tactical points for defenses when fully upgraded (asteroids get 25). Use them! 4-5 gauss turrets (or equivalent for other races) is not enough to defend your planet from a siege raid if you don’t have a stationed fleet there. Build up 15-20, some repair stations, and a few hangars. This is a pretty heavy investment of resources, but you’re in no rush against the AI, and believe me it’ll pay off in the end when you can see 15 siege ships get plastered before they can take out your 6,000 hp colony. Remember to place them where you know the siege frigates will be.

- Try to keep a small defensive fleet on your front line planet. The AI isn’t going to go past it and bomb some undefended planet. A small fleet + defenses will make the AI siege frigates run away quickly. They’re not suicidal, and the AI will want to save his ships if you have an advantage!

- A little later in the game, look at the civic research trees! Races have various ways of helping against siege frigates. These are planetary shield structures, weapon jamming structures, disabling structures, and passive planet upgrades to reduce bombardment damage and the like.


Pirates! ARRRR!

This section is smaller because a lot of it is shared with siege frigates. Pirates aren’t that smart, they’ll plow straight into your defenses, and they also go for your edge of the empire planets, they’ll never bypass a front line planet to go deep into your territory. So all the stuff about defenses and planet upgrades applies to pirates. Know which phase lane they’ll be using, and build defenses on that side of the planet. Do NOT ignore repair centers against pirates. Two repair stations will prolong the life of your defenses very, very, very considerably! I’ve been able to beat back level 4-5 pirate raids and only losing 2-3 turrets because they kept getting repaired.

As far as bounty goes, here are some tips:

The AI will place bounty on each other, too. Pick whoever has the highest close to yours (if you’re the target) and pump his bounty a bit. After all, you usually don’t care who the pirates go after as long as it’s not you.

If you’re low on money, on the pirate target list, and don’t want to fight them – go fight the AI instead. Every one of your ships destroyed decreases the bounty on you to decrease (and awarded to the AI that destroys your ships, but oh well :P). This way, unless you need to lose a lot of bounty, you can usually push the AI back and decrease your bounty at the same time, since you always lose a bit of ships in fights.

Don’t ignore the racial techs that deal with pirates! Advent techs give you a bigger return on placing bounties. Vasari techs scare pirates away and cause them to attack in fewer numbers. These are important if you keep getting harassed by pirates!

[UPDATES]:

"As far as pirates go, the majority of their ships seem to go directly for Trade and Refinery stations, no matter where they are in system. You can set up overlapping guns and repair stations around them and chew the pirates up. Use the trade stations/refineries as bait." - Thanks, Hrett!

"Defense hangars are underrated in a lot of the tips posted, especially if you're playing as the Advent since they have a nice 'buff' for them in their tech tree... Unlike platforms they have unlimited range and as long as you keep the hanagar itself safe they'll keep replenshing themselves. So, cluster a bunch of hanagrs around a repair facility and use up the remaining logistics space for a few platforms to add some extra defense for the hangars and you'll have worry-free defense against most AI and pirate raids." - Thanks, Seven05!

"If you use an asteroid as a "choke point" surround it with about 5 defense structures (gauss, laser, missile). Place them all as close to the asteroid as possible. When sieges show up they will b line it straight to the rock to bomb it, and come into the range of ALL your guns. Hangers, use them to build fighters to take on enemy bombers. Let the guns take care of the ships. I never build more than 2 hangers on an asteroid. Build at least 1 repair platform. More if you have the slots. You are gonna need it. Dont bother with phase jump inhibitors on an asteroid unless you have your own fleet stationed there, and dont want the enemy fleet to run away." - Thanks, Major_Stress!

"Do the trade port/refinery bait trick for pirates. Pirates will almost always go after civilian ships, and structures 1st ignoring any defenses or ships. Nice distraction for your fleets and defenses to take care of them. Civilian ships are auto replaced free anyway so you really lose nothing except the credits/ore the ship was carrying. Make sure your trade ports, and refineries are in range of repair structures, and defenses. In an asteroids case i build the port as close as possible to the rock so the pirates get nailed the same way sieges get nailed. Park capitols at your choke points, and keep them there. When pir8s hit its free experience for the cap ships. " - Thanks, Major_Stress!

"A setup like this is usually enough to wipe out any medium pirate planet: 1 cap ship of choice (preferably carrier), 3 carrier cruisers, 3 heavy cruisers, 6 1st level frigates, 4 LRM frigates. Remember to set your fleet on hold position and stay out of range of the turrets (To do this, set hold position before phase jumping, then right-click on the planet itself. Your ships will automatically jump to the outermost area of the planet. Stay there, the further you are from the enemy, the more damage he has to endure before he reaches you.). Once you finish off the defensive fleet, just go do something else while your bombers wipe out the turrets. If you want to save time, manually ask your bombers to take out enough turrets so you can bring your cap ship in to bomb the planet." - Thanks, duhman02!

"Another point is that if you don't have a convenient buffer system to place your fleet in to defend, say you have 2 systems, then withdraw your fleet back 1 system down your phase lanes to somewhere which links to both, and place a scout in each system linking to the ones you want to defend. When you see ships coming in, just have your main fleet jump to the appropriate system." -Thanks, Thomas Bloxham! [Alternatively, you can research the tech that shows phasing ships from 2 jumps away, each race has them at various points in the tech tree. -Annatar]

--

I hope this helps a bit, if you have any questions please don’t hesitate to post them, and again, please realize that you’re not going to be good at smacking the AI around on day 2 (or 3, or 4) of the game. It’ll take a bit, but soon enough you’ll just be able to laugh when you see 15 unescorted siege frigates jump in to attack one of your colonies :) I promise!
103,986 views 85 replies
Reply #51 Top
Very nice. But on the EASY AI Setting I had no real problems with pirate attacks and siege frigates. ;)
I will have to try the normal and hard settings soon.
Reply #52 Top
Is there a way to see all the phase lanes that leave your planet?

Also, is there a way to see all the phase lanes that you have scouted on the map?


Just trying to get a view of where to put my defenses.
Reply #53 Top
does the level of your success against pirates influence how prone they are to attacking you or is that enitrely dependent on the bounty on you?
End of quote


It only depends on bounty (and how much trade you have going, I believe - paraphrasing devs :P). The Vasari have a tech that reduces pirate raid strength against you by 20%, though.

Is there a way to see all the phase lanes that leave your planet?

Also, is there a way to see all the phase lanes that you have scouted on the map?
End of quote


Zoom out a bit until you see the entire grav well and white lines connected to it. The white lines are phase lanes and any travelling ships will land somewhere around them (not right on top) depending on where they jumped out from. Likewise, keep zooming out the map until you see the entire solar system - every planet that you explored automatically shows all phase lanes leading to it, even if what's on the other end of them isn't explored (it'll show gray planets with ? over them)
Reply #54 Top
Tried zooming out on home planet and dont see the lines. I am using TEC.
Reply #56 Top
 :SURPRISED: There's something wrong there.. can you post a screenshot? Might be a video issue you're having.

Look at this pic: WWW Link

You don't see those kinds of lines connecting all the planets? (the extra thick white lines are wormhole connections, the thinner/dimmer ones are phase lanes).

Edit: Oops :) Glad you found it.
Reply #57 Top
Another point is that if you don't have a convenient buffer system to place your fleet in to defend, say you have 2 systems, then withdraw your fleet back 1 system down your phase lanes to somewhere which links to both, and place a scout in each system linking to the ones you want to defend. When you see ships coming in, just have your main fleet jump to the appropriate system.

Furthermore, you should have about 5 hangers for a serious defense, with 8 bombers and 2 fighters. That will help you against siege/pirate raids and hopefully contribute to achieving fighter superiority in a serious battle.
Reply #58 Top
All this strategy are fine, but anyone have tried playing or larger maps?

In medium to large maps with >4 star systems and >2 opponents it's really crazy. Hangars and turrets don't do anything against a decent fleet >2 capital ships and task force.

This means that usually you are always being attacked with 2-3 big fleets from diferent players and about 4-6 siege frigates armys. With alls techs fully developed "maxed capital ships and fleet capacity" i can hold about 2-3 star systems "depending on size". Having all my fleets chasing my enemy fleets and no way to expand furhter because all my fleets are working as fireman.
Reply #59 Top
Well, these tips aren't meant for defending against fleets, just siege raids and pirates specifically :P

OP updated with Thomas' tip, thanks!
Reply #60 Top
eoder:
It's why I don't approve of turtling. There is no static defense in this known universe that can singlehandedly stand the test of time other than blind ignorance. Relying on defenses alone will get you nowhere, especially against tougher opponents.

If you ever see me online, I can tell you straight up front that I don't build defenses unless I'm bored or my fleet is 5 planets away from the one about to be attacked. Even then, sometimes I'm more willing to sacrifice a few planets or an entire system to crush the opponent's powerhold.

So, in this sense, the very best defense you can get, especially when faced against mobile foes (in this case, multiple fleets from multiple enemies), is your own mobile fleet and your own ingenuity. Furthermore, sometimes the best defense you can hope to get is not get attacked in the first place. Give enemies someone else to attack, make allies attack each other. Be devious, be blackhearted, be cruel, cunning, and malicious. Be like Barney the purple dinosaur and spread your cruel lies from the very start of the game to get everyone fighting everyone but you. Then tech up, build up, and kill them one by one.

And something important to note: If you're familiar with military strategy, you would come across how they state why it is important NOT to chase a retreating army. I'm sure if you analyzed your own statements, you would see why. Instead of chasing a fleet too busy running away and wasting time, why not just go attack his worlds instead? A good player knows how to sacrifice to benefit. Sorta like neglecting certain areas of the tech tree to major in something else: just with planets and victory.
Reply #61 Top
"does the level of your success against pirates influence how prone they are to attacking you or is that enitrely dependent on the bounty on you? "
can someone quickly answer that for me and forgive my noobishness i dont have the game yet

Reply #62 Top
"does the level of your success against pirates influence how prone they are to attacking you or is that enitrely dependent on the bounty on you? "
can someone quickly answer that for me and forgive my noobishness i dont have the game yet

End of quote


No, how many pirates you killed doesn't play into it. ;) The Vasari have a tech that reduces pirate raid strength against you by 20%, though, which helps with the higher threat raids.
Reply #63 Top
Nice info, I wish I had read it before but I found out the hard way. About the pirates I may just suck at this game but taking their Base is near impossible I had a fair size fleet (list at bottom) and a back up siege fleet, they wiped the floor with me.

Playing as TEC

:main attack fleet
70 cobalts
5 Caps
10 repair ships
10 carriers
10 cruisers
20 missile frigates
handful of other support ships

Back up siege force: their job was to take out their base while my attack force occupied them.

2 caps
5 siege frigates
30 cobalts
5 repair ships
and some support ships


Pirate numbers were well over 400 ships and they seemed to kept on building as fast as I took them out, I had to retreat after a huge lose all caps survived accept for one and their numbers doubled I said the hell with em and built Huge siege gun platforms that destroys planet structures, I built 3 and took them out (still plenty of ships but hey no more pirate attacks hehe.


Reply #64 Top
10 Hoshikos isn't enough for a fleet like that. I would drop 30 or so cobalts, get another 20-30 missile frigates, and another 10-15 Hoshikos for repairs (the more the merrier here). The heavy combat cruiser (don't you love it when you mind blank on the name) is good too because it attracts a lot of enemy fire, and it can take a pounding. :P
Reply #65 Top
400 ships?! doubleeuteeeff? Are you serious? Is that even possible?

Wow, I want to fight a base like that.

I don't agree with Annatar's setup. While you might want to consider dropping maybe... 50 cobalts (these guys are cannon fodder) if you can afford it and invest much more heavily in heavy cruisers, always remember that when fighting pirates, it's going to be a war of attrition.

What happens is that even though Hoskikos may be able to repair you like mad, they also fall like flies. (I noticed that the AI enjoys prioritizing your support ships as primary targets). Remember that pirates don't have support ships and only focus on damage. The opportunity cost of each support ship you bring is a loss in pure damage. So, just take a few of each support ship (because they ARE important) and maximize firepower because at the end of the day, what wins is pure DPS in a straight out brawl.

You might not like my examples, but I'm not one to hate games or blind myself out of pure fanboyism:
If you play Starcraft, you'd understand that no one builds more support units than actual units when going into full on assaults. Border skirmishes and isolated fights, yes, but when it comes to the final confrontation, you're going to see a metric craptonne of siege tanks, hydralisks, and dragoons with maybe (MAYBE) a few support units like a science vessel or so.

If you play Supreme Commander, you'd see this too. No one even bothers to build mobile shields and stealth when the larger battles are taking place. When you've got 2000 units smacking another 2000, each extra T3 siege assault bot you have makes a world of a difference but each shield / radar / suicide unit relatively doesn't.

It's also the reason why spamming units are so common, because humans intrinsically understand this concept. But you shouldn't dismiss support. The effectiveness of your support craft would probably look a little like a diminishing returns curve. The first few make huge differences, but after a certain amount, the benefit drops substantially. This is due to many reasons, such as abilities overlapping and the abovementioned opportunity cost of damage potential. It's up to you (or math) to figure out that point.

So, quite simply put: the more units that are involved, the less focused you need to be on support.

Also, don't split your forces. Why not just consolidate your fleet into one big force instead of having one deal with the massive defensive fleet while another having to deal with the massive planetary defenses. That pirate base isn't going anywhere and those base defenses won't do anything if you don't get in range. So plunk them all together, and wipe out one priority one at a time.

Lastly, I think the reason you see the enemy forces increasing exponentially is a combination of panicking and taking too long. What happens is that the next pirate raid forms and you mistake that for reinforcements. There's only one way to avoid this, and that is to either kill them fast, or wait until one raid has just launched before jumping in.
Reply #66 Top
They should just remove siege frigates all together and make it so capital ships have to bombard the planet. :p

On the very large makes you can often encounter fleets of 35+ seige frigates with no way to kill them all before they destroy your planet's infrastructure.

It would make the games a lot more interesting and make capital ships even that much more valuable.
Reply #67 Top
I hope to God they don't make the game easier, cause the fun is in the challenge.
Reply #68 Top
Seriously. Why don't you have a fleet at each planet, and when you're ready to launch a major assault you just gate them all together? I can't believe the claims that you can't kill 35 Siege frigates before they kill your planet. What happened to your army? It seems pretty dumb to have it into 3 huge parts, but no smaller sub-sections if only to distract the Frigates.

Even in Supreme Commander: Forged Alliance it was suicide to bring all your units to defend one part. Defenses often weren't enough to deter the expirementals, T.3 Bots, Masses of air, and the powerful naval units.
Reply #69 Top
I just finished my first game of post patch sins and the pirates served as an allie and not a serious problem. I was playing on medium and in the small random system. Here is what I did.

Build sufficent Civic research centers to obtain the Trade Port. I needed this for two reasons.

First I wanted to have more credits that my ai opponent so that I could hire the pirates to attack him. They devastated him. If you think you have probelms defending against pirates you should see how inadequate the ai is against them. With the better economy I could choose when I would invite the pirates to attack me.

Secondly you need the trade port to be the cheese in your trap. Ultimately I had three asteroids within 1 jump of the pirate base so I did not have alot of tactical slots to spare. I used 1 trade port, three repair bases, 3 hangars (all Bombers), and 7 Gauss cannons. These all stayed next to the asteroid facing the phase lane the pirates would use. They surrounded the trade port. I would typically loose 2 Gauss cannons and would replace these during the battle. They kept attacking the trade port but the repair stations kept the trade port from ever being seriously threatened. I would concentrate the Gauss cannons, which had been updated, on the pirate equivalent to the flak frigate. Once these ships were gone they were helpless against the bombers

Then when its time you conquer their base when you no longer need to partner with them. Important: Wait until they launch a raid then attack right away. I used two KOls, both level 5, 13 light carriers, all bombers, 12 Cobalts, and 12 Gardas. The Gardas were already part of the fleet and should have been replaced with 12 Cobalts. My fleet stayed at the end of the phase lane naturally and did not Kamikaze on the 19 pirate Gauss cannons. I lost the Gardas and Cobalts and 2 Carriers, plus the shields on one of the KOL. The entire pirate fleet was gone. Then my fleet sat there as the bombers quickly dismantled the Gauss cannons. I fired the Novalith Cannon at the pirate base just for fun but when a lane was clear through the Gauss cannons I brought in three Siege frigates to bomb the base.

I think its importnat to view the pirates as a tool. They never bypassed a system so you know where they are going and they never show up unannounced. Then when they have served their purpose they become a good income stream for the rest of the game.
Reply #70 Top
Hi, I'd like to add a suggestion I've found very helpful when I'm playing. I found pirates very deadly in the first game I played, but soon learned how to deal with them.

On your planet, build emergency infrastructure. Around your planet, built 6 fighter bases in a hexagonal pattern. A little beyond those, built 6 turrets, again in the same hex pattern. Build only bombers in 3 of the platforms, and 1 fighter/1 bomber in the remaining 3. You're now immune to any size of pirate raid, you'll have no losses. Prioritize missile research, and once you have a few levels of that, your planet can fight off anything but an all-out attack from a powerful empire. Always prioritize attacking capital ships, since the AI currently loses its guts once they're destroyed and will retreat.

If you do this at your front-line colonies, you can go on the offensive with confidence that even if a major attack comes, you'll have time to get back with your fleet.

So, 6 fighter bases, 6 guns, close around your planet, NOT at the jump point, since they will often be bypassed. A planet shield, and emergency infrastructure. Missile research should be a priority, regardless of what planet defense strategy you use, since high-level bombers are so deadly.

When you've worn down your enemy to the point that they stop sending major attacks, it becomes too expensive to put this whole defense on every vulnerable planet. What I do at this point is build 3 shield generators in a triangle around my planet, with 3 hangars (4 bombers, 2 fighters) and then as many gauss guns as you have the slots for in a ring around your planet.

What's really important is not putting them all in one place. Ships don't move very fast in Sins, and damage also isn't dealt very quickly even when you have a lot of weapons. This is my favourite thing about the game, but it means you need to rethink your usual RTS defense strategy. A line of turrets just doesn't cut it - you need defense from every angle, and what's best is that if your colony is being attacked by something that's too much for the fighters and guns to handle, they will have to go around your entire planet blowing up defenses before they'll start bombing it (usually). This buys you lots of time.


Also, don't split your forces. Why not just consolidate your fleet into one big force instead of having one deal with the massive defensive fleet while another having to deal with the massive planetary defenses. That pirate base isn't going anywhere and those base defenses won't do anything if you don't get in range. So plunk them all together, and wipe out one priority one at a time.
End of quote


If we're giving newbie advice here, I don't think this will be helpful. Putting all your ships in one fleet, especially when you're fighting more than one enemy, is suicide. You need to have at least 2 fleets, with enough frigates scattered around (maybe 20 in all) at vulnerable planets to be able to defend in case a few ships slip past you.

While we're on the subject of bad advice, I read somewhere somebody recommended building JUST capital ships... I realize why this idea is tempting but in bigger games it'll hurt you. 20 capital ships sounds like a lot, but you'll need to divide them into at least 2 fleets. So now you've got 10 of them. Now someone attacks you and a few ships slip past you - so you send 5 and leave 5 more behind. Now you get attacked. 5 capital ships versus a fleet. Boom. Now you try to defend with your other 5 caps. Boom. So now what do you do, wait 15 minutes until you can build 10 more, while watching your planets get crunched, or do you pull your other 10 caps from their area. Now it's undefended, and another fleet gets through. It's... just really inflexible. 20 caps in one battle is one thing, but as a general rule it's better to balance them with the flexibility that frigates and cruisers give. If you want 20 caps with any kind of decent fleet left over, you'll be wasting 75% of your income on upkeep alone... I played a game like that just recently...
Reply #71 Top
Meh
if you know how to control the bounty area (rise the price of the bounty) and if you are good in building a good economy

Pirates are easy to deal with and use them against your opponent


Even in Supreme Commander: Forged Alliance it was suicide to bring all your units to defend one part. Defenses often weren't enough to deter the expirementals, T.3 Bots, Masses of air, and the powerful naval units.
End of quote


Thats a lousy example

Especially by comparing a average game title like SupCom with a excellent game like SINS
Reply #72 Top
The quality of the game in question is irrelevant to the example.

And duhman was referring to the ships in a single gravity well: don't split your fire between targets in a battle. That's basic stuff, particularly when (as he said) defences can't move and you can sit out of range and kill all the ships THEN move in. The AI is tragically stupid when it comes to placing turrets so most of them won't even be in 'useful' positions.

For what it's worth, I don't use siege frigates either. I barely use support ships either. The design idea of 'only four ships with guns' makes unit choice extremly simple since DPS wins battles. Capships provide support functionality with the added bonus of not dying.
Reply #73 Top
Thanks Pnakotus. I was about to explode about how ungrateful these newbies were by insulting those who try to help, which no doubt would have just been stupid.

Anyway, it's up to you how you want to play the game. Granted, most of you play against AI and would probably never see the light of multiplayer. It's not a bad thing. It's understandable how unappealing multiplayer can be. What with the difficulty, and the challenge, and the zerg rushing, and the spamming, and the exploitations, and the name calling... In such a case, feel free to do whatever your heart desires. If it works, cool!
Reply #74 Top
I have a question. Can you destroy the Pirate base? Getting attacked constantly is pretty annoying, but I have a couple of pretty powerful fleets, so I would like to just send them in and kill them and be done with it.
Reply #75 Top

I have a question. Can you destroy the Pirate base? Getting attacked constantly is pretty annoying, but I have a couple of pretty powerful fleets, so I would like to just send them in and kill them and be done with it.
End of quote


Yep. Take out their planet and you'll never see another pirate again.