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Gameplay mechanic Issue

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Gameplay mechanic Issue

Too bad, I wanted to like this game

from Sins Forums
I'm a die-hard strategy game junky, and have been playing these games for decades, even before PCs had them (in the olden days you had to play them on mainframes). I have been tracking this particular game for about a year before it came out, and had extremely high hopes.

My problem with the game is the horrible gameplay mechanic, which I belive is a crappy synergy of a few bad balance decisions these guys made. It breaks the game, and makes it unplayable from any sort of enjoyability or fun standbpoint.

1) All you have to do to either win the game, or make it so unfun for your human opponents that they don't want to play anymore, is go straight for the siege frigate technology, then spam some planetary siege frigates and start going from planet to planet taking out the populations on those planets. This strategy can't really be stopped - EVEN WITH the newest patch which claimed to mitigate it to a certain degree. I just finished a game against the computer (set only on average difficulty). I purposefully went with the advent FOR THE SOLE PURPOSE of trying to stop this bullcrap strategy that I knew the computer would employ. My strategy was to use fighters against these siege frigates, so the first thing I did was bring in the carrier cap ship, and equip it with fighters, and also extra fighters for each group. Then, I researched the hanger tech as quickly as possible, and upgraded it so that each hanger would have additional fighters. After I took a few planets, I put down 3 hangers on two of my outlying systems where I knew attacking forces would have to come through. I filled the upgraded hangers with fighters, and also built a fleet to support my cap ship.

Bottom line, this strat failed at all to stop the "siege frigate" strategy. At all. In one instance, all the computer needed was 7 of these siege frigates to take out my planet's population (in the other instance, he sent 19, LOL). Even in the case of just 7 siege frigates, against 3 fully upgraded hangers stocked with fighters, AND ALSO the civilian bomb shelters I had built on the planet, he successfully removed the entire population, and then moved on. Someone might say "well you should have built more hangers." Well sure, my intention was to eventually max out hangers at as many planets as I could, however don't I also have a fleet to build? Don't I have other things to spend money on besides hangers? Also, do you think 6 or 7 hangers would have stopped the 19 ships the guy sent in the next attack?

Anyone can employ this bullcrap strategy (not just the computer). Are there defenses? Perhaps. But the defenses are so extreme as to make the game a crappy experience. For instance, you could build your own force of siege frigates and play "siege frigate tag" with your opponent, and forever be prepared to blow up his worlds too, complete with colony ships which then place your own colonies down as his are eliminated. You can then play "planetary musical chairs" with your opponent - keep blowing up each other's planets and switching colonies back and forth until one guy gets sick of it and quits.

You could try to build ships and defenses which counter his siege frigates, and hunt down all of his siege frigates, but it won't work (I tried - see above). He can take your planets out before you can take his ships out, and then he can run. Oh, you can chase him (and I did, through star system after star system after star system), but you won't catch him (or, if you did, you'd spend so much time chasing him around that you'd still lose because you'd be neglecting all the other aspects of the game).

2) The first problem might not be so bad if it weren't for this problem: You can't control or lock down phase lanes strategically, which is just plain weird considering that this is a strategy game, and it just seems obvious that a space strategy game should allow the strategic use of star systems and phase lanes (otherwise the only strategy you are employing is what sorts of ships to build and what sorts of techs to research).

At any rate, this severe game weakness combined with the first one just makes for an unplayable game condition from the way I look at it. Systems are undefendable, phase lanes and star systems are uncontrollable from a strategic standpoint, and the game is an endless game of "phase lane tag" at the very best.

What's weird is, the underlying game itself seems to be a great game. The engine handles a lot of micromanagement for you, the graphics are good, the concept of the game is great, on and on. Yet they made these totally BIZARRE choices on gameplay mechanics and balance, and there really is no excuse for it at all. Why make it so siege frigates can take down a planet so easily which even has defenses and a fleet in place? Why make it so the PJI sucks? The only guess I have is that the developers (who seem very capable and talented) strongly catered to the feedback of their beta tester audience, which I'm guessing represented a poor sample for what most strategy gamers want as far as gameplay mechanics in a game like this. Either that, or they just had bizzare ideas on their own for what constituted a good gameplay mechanic.

At any rate, this pretty much ends my participation in this game, and I won't be playing it anymore, or recommending it to anyone else, which is too bad, because like I said the game had serious potential, and the developers seem extremely competent in the work they did on the game from a technical standpoint. It's quite strange - the game has so much promise and potential. It was the "game that could have been"... but I suppose in the end, it sadly wasn't.
71,047 views 105 replies
Reply #26 from Sins Forums Top

...It was the entire basis of my race selection, opening cap ship selection, research into hangers, my selection of fighters instead of bombers, etc.

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Fighters are only good against bombers, while bombers are good against all other ships. If you had stocked bombers instead of fighters I think the results would have been different. Bombers seem to target planet attack ships before others.
Reply #27 from Sins Forums Top

It was the entire basis of my race selection, opening cap ship selection, research into hangers, my selection of fighters instead of bombers, etc.
End of quote

Unless I'm mistaken fighters basically suck against siege frigates.

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Reply #28 from Sins Forums Top

I think it would be more constructive if you posted some creative solutions to the PJI problem in a thread dedicated to it:

https://forums.sinsofasolarempire.com/?forumid=402&aid=176591#1455475

We are already considering improvements to the PJI's. We just won't be doing it the way they were in beta 1 or beta 4 though.

I'll continue to follow and participate in a constructive discussion in that thread as long as everyone is polite and introduces well thought out ideas and criticises sensibly.

Edit: Actually i knew this sounded familiar. I already had notes from this thread: https://forums.sinsofasolarempire.com/?forumid=402&aid=175957 where much of this already came up and you were involved in the conversation. Was there a need to bring it up again with more force?

Reply #29 from Sins Forums Top
Hangers are no good against siege frigate spam. You need gun turrets, just place them in front of the planet, maybe 10 or so with a repair bay and you'll be fine. Siege frigates
aren't scared of hangers, it's turrets that kill them very quickly.

You have to seriously spend -alot- of money on defenses. I'd say at least half of what you spend out to go in fortifying your border planets after investing in your economy. Eventually as you take planets you'll develop a 'chain' of heavily fortified worlds that's really tough to crack. You might get the impression you are 'falling behind' but I guarantee you are not. A siege frigate costs 500+credits, while turrets cost about 300 -and- require no fleet supply. That's a big deal since increasing fleet supply cuts into your upkeep. Use your fleet for attack. If half his ships are siege, than your fully stocked assault only fleet will always win. Kill orbital structures, which are expensive, and only bomb important planets, like the capital, with your cap ships.

One rule of thumb is that for every ship you build, you should also have a turret.

This game makes you really evaluate which planets are important, and which are not. -Don't- play siege tag, ignore it and go for the homeworld. Even if he blasts your border planet, killing the AI's planet is far more crippling.

The thing is that you already know your border planets are going to get borked, so don't invest heavily in them planet wise. Pop out the orbital structures and hold it until you find -another- border planet. That planet is essentially your 'front line', so keep a colony frigate nearby to ressurect it quickly. Border planets are essentially warzones- invest at least as much in them as your fleet, and make sure you have choke points where you're only fighting one enemy at a time. Once you have 10 or so turrets in place, then you can start investing heavily in the planet itself. Again I say, hangers are just really bad at defense.

It's frustrating at first, but eventually I started beating 8 hard AIs consistently. A big key in bigger games is to do missions, they really add an influx of cash. -Always- fight with one of your neighbors, and only fight one or two systems away. A good idea is to split your fleet in half, using 5-10 frigates and turrets for defense. Maxing out your tactical slots is always a good idea.

Also, remember to -build- whil
Reply #30 from Sins Forums Top
I don’t usually say anything but this time I will. The people who put this program together really put their heart into it so I really feel you should take it easy on your criticism, please. Maybe you’re a hot shot gamer, will then fine maybe you are. But I can see all the detail and work that was put into it. Something this complicated and grand in scale should be given honors. They will get it right so take it easy.

Remember what the Bible says “You while be judged with the same measurement you use”. Thank you very much have a nice day.
Reply #31 from Sins Forums Top
..Build while the siege bombers are bombing, you can easily get 3-6 turrets up before your planet dies. Build them relatively far from the bombers but still in range so you don't trigger the AI to kill them. With 3 tactical slots & three constructer ships you can hold off fleets for a -really- long time this way. (It is however, extremely expensive and not effective against massive massive fleets full of capships and whatelse.)
Reply #32 from Sins Forums Top

We don't agree with the siege problem since v1.02 but we'll continue to monitor the stats and gameplay behaviors.
End of quote


The siege problem is still very bad, but it's actually a minor issue compared to the PJI (in fact I think it syngergizes with that problem, and is complicated by it).

Note that I have no complaints against the AI (I merely used gameplay with the AI as an example). Actually, it is great that the AI is smart enough to recognize and use that tactic, and I would never advocate dumbing the AI down. The problem is the siege unit itself, not the AI (or the human player who would use the same tactic).

Almost any strat gamer except one with exotic tastes would say that the purpose of the seige unit should be to walk in AFTER the main forces have gone in and taken everything out, and THEN do its job. Right now, it doesn't work that way. It has way too many hit points or armor, and it can walk into a reasonably well-protected system unescorted and take a planet down. The gameplay dynamic it creates is just nuts.


.... There is no need to exaggerate, issue threats, or try to insult us. We aren't like some other companies where you get ignored or where causing a stink is the best way to get attention. Polite, detailed descriptions with well thought out arguements are much more persuasive.
End of quote


Just in case this was directed towards me (and it's fine if it was), I did not exaggerate, issue any threat, or insult anyone. In fact, I actually complimented you guys on being obviously talented developers (I'm a developer myself - LOL - so I know what it would take to do this game). However, you certainly screwed up on the balance, and on the "gameplay dynamic" you were trying to create.

This is no threat (it can't be - you already have my money), I simply won't be playing any more of this game. However, I will certainly continue listening to the music - in fact I have it on even as I am writing this! (As an aside, I am asking this question for other players who might continue playing this game - is there any way to get the new music you guys posted to play inside the game itself?)
Reply #33 from Sins Forums Top

Fair enough Agent. Let's continue this in one of the PJI discussions (two linked above). I agree the PJI's have problems so let's work together and find a solution. We'll implement and test whatever the best option is.

Reply #34 from Sins Forums Top
Any news on adding the extra fast gameplay mode for speed junkies...

Also, is there a way to make the fleet travel faster in the gravity well especially if the fleet is only passing through the planet en-route to another destination?

Regards
Reply #35 from Sins Forums Top

Azmodean I've moved this to a new thread as its a different topic.

Reply #36 from Sins Forums Top

Any news on adding the extra fast gameplay mode for speed junkies...

Also, is there a way to make the fleet travel faster in the gravity well especially if the fleet is only passing through the planet en-route to another destination?

Regards
End of quote


In reading this, I suppose I have to feel for the developers. Here I am complaining in one respect about stuff being able to zip through one's system as if that system isn't even there (I want a much more effective PJI), yet here is another guy who essentially thinks his ships are slowed down too much going from one place to the other, and wants them to move faster.

Again, my apologies to the developers. I suppose you can't win no matter what you do.

Reply #37 from Sins Forums Top
Blair I dont think he wants to make this game better.
All posts are like from a child who didnt get his candy or reading in a WoW class Forum...
The first post said it clearly "I dont want to like this game I just want to make sure that more people will think like me".
Too bad, I wanted to like this game
End of quote

If someone really wants to like a game, he should help to make it better.
So stop complaining and make suggestion otherwise please leave and play the "good" strategy games.

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Reply #38 from Sins Forums Top
This speed boost thing could be a researchable upgrade or some kind of building that you can place in your controlled gravity well that speeds up your fleet. However as it's a buildable structure it can't be used offensively. The PJI's do absolutely need to be improved as having your homeworld frig rushed (not boy siege frigs) isn't fun. There needs to be something that HAS to be destroyed before a fleet can move deeper into your controlled space.
Reply #39 from Sins Forums Top
See TwiSteDeViLx post, thats how to make suggestions.

How about not only speeding up your forces, maybe slowing your oponents.
Or an EMP charge, that shuts down everything around a Planet (even your forces) for a few seconds.

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Reply #40 from Sins Forums Top
Blair, i really like the idea of silverchief regarding the pji.
In addition i would take the shields away from siege frigades and make them a little slower (maybe even lower their hp a little more).
I would say, they are slower and have no shields because they are just giantic weapons that are meant to kill planets, so there is no more room in the ships hull for schilds or big engines and the ships are fragile because of that.

If u want to damage or maybe even kill a planet while a fight is going on or the planets defense is still up, u have to use siege capital ships. Or u can use the siege frigades and risk them to get destroyed pretty fast.
Reply #41 from Sins Forums Top
I wasn't in beta, but from what I gather the PJI there were more useful. No one seems to really know why they were changed.
End of quote

Actually, people seem pretty clear on why they were changed: super weapons.

Imagine super effective PJI's at each one of your opponent's planets and a super weapon positioned deep in his territory. Now tell me you wouldn't have been screaming for a nerf.
Reply #42 from Sins Forums Top

Imagine super effective PJI's at each one of your opponent's planets and a super weapon positioned deep in his territory. Now tell me you wouldn't have been screaming for a nerf.
End of quote


If it was indeed the problem you say it was, I certainly wouldn't have been screaming for a nerf of the PJI. Why not nerf the superweapon instead? Why nerf strategy out of the game?

Either way, you seem to be implying that once a PJI was put into place, the game was won, and no more progress could ever be made against the person who built the PJI. I didn't get to play the beta, but this claim seems rather hard to believe.
Reply #43 from Sins Forums Top
Still not sure what's strategic about being forced to fight through defenses. Like I've been saying, I'd rather them just improve PJI's time constraint, as opposed to limiting fleet movement.
Reply #44 from Sins Forums Top
We [at Ironclad] aren't like some other companies where you get ignored
End of quote


Considering that Blair Fraser took the time and care to give substantial answers (on this thread) deep into the Night, on a weekend, that's a credible statement. Thanks.

Reply #45 from Sins Forums Top
I skipped the bulk of the posts in the middle of this thread, but has anyone mentioned that siege units are expensive and planets sometimes aren't? If you don't need to build any more structures and if you don't care about planetary defenses, the only thing you need to rebuild is the population. Losing a full pop terran planet sucks, but you should probably defend those anyway; losing an asteroid or even an ice/volcanic planet costs you very little. If you destroyed a couple of the siege units, you might have even gotten a good deal out of it. Plus, if your opponent sent 19 of them at you, that's 228 supply, which is nearly 1/8th of the max ship count. Hopefully you were doing something more productive with your 228 units, such as destroying his entire army and winning the game. Just because the strategy is annoying doesn't mean it's too powerful.
Reply #46 from Sins Forums Top
First, I would definetely say that these problems are not a reason to quit playing the game. Try playing against some players on ICO, who know how to deal with those kinds of things. That stuff will not work on them.

Second, it sounds like what a lot of people who post on this issue say is that(correct me if I am wrong) the siege frigates just fly right past the defenses, quickly destroy a planet, then leave. Maybe by slowing down their speed, weakening shields, or decreasing maneuverability it would help to alleviate the problem. Also, slow down their jump time/speed?
Reply #47 from Sins Forums Top
There seems to be an even balance of people who can deal with the so-called 'siege spam' and people who cannot.
Firstly, I've played several games against multiple computers teamed up against me, with and without Human players, and I've experienced this siege spam in practically every game, and it has caused minor problems, but problems that I soon learn to deal with.
So the frigates keep pushing deeper into your empire crushing each planet? Stopping them from getting past the first planet isn't so tough as they retreat from even a minor threat, and any planets past your initial destruction shouldn't be completely unfortified anyway, only a fool would have -one- line of defense.

I don't believe the siege frigates need to be 'nerfed' or such like, seeing as they're already costly, but maybe forcing the computer to use different techniques more often would be effective.
In any circumstance, a strategy gamer needs to overcome even the most ridiculous odds, and I think the siege attacks feel like a punishment rather than an exploit.
For a die-hard strategy fan, fleeing from the heat isn't an agreeable option.

As for the PJI, valid points have been made as I've noticed it is nowhere near effective to be worthwhile, however having other fortified systems is a common counter to this for me, and also using ships with alot of disabling abilities - After all, it IS what those ships are there for.

Finally and simply, as someone else stated, why would you try to counter frigates with fighters rather than bombers? I've seen a small squadron of bombers and how effective they are for taking out bombardment ships (or any kind), and the outcome as someone mentioned, would certainly have been different.

There's my opinion, agreed with by several friends who play LAN every few days. Be ye a fool for leaving the game; The only real strategy game since TA.

Reply #48 from Sins Forums Top
Siege frigates are barely worth building as is. They really don't need another nerf. Even a handful of regular frigates can blast a siege force pretty good.
Reply #49 from Sins Forums Top
My main concern is not the siege frigate spam, but how badly the game scales in medium to larger maps due to the fleet cap. And the botleneck that it produces in the "end game".

But in a recent game, withc patch 1.02, my homeworld, that was fully defended with hangars and turrets, and a minor fleet with 1 kol batleship lvl 5 and one sova carrier lvl 2 and some frigates "about 12-20" and 6-10 cruiser. My homeworld get totally overruned by a Siege frigate raid "Only siege frigates". And scouting is nearly impossible due that he HW was near a star and you should need to scout all the other star systems that is nearly impossible. You can be everywhere.

Also please play on larger maps! I have said it in other post but when more than 4 star system gets involved the game is unplayable. You don't have enought fleet points to defense even 2 medium sized systems and you spend all your fleet purchasing opponents fleets and siege raids and game ends there botlenecked.
Reply #50 from Sins Forums Top
I never need to buy siege frigates, I only use Capital Ship that's has good bombing at planet because they are harder to destoryed, I hate loseing ship.