Agent of Kharma Agent of Kharma

Gameplay mechanic Issue

▼

Gameplay mechanic Issue

Too bad, I wanted to like this game

from Sins Forums
I'm a die-hard strategy game junky, and have been playing these games for decades, even before PCs had them (in the olden days you had to play them on mainframes). I have been tracking this particular game for about a year before it came out, and had extremely high hopes.

My problem with the game is the horrible gameplay mechanic, which I belive is a crappy synergy of a few bad balance decisions these guys made. It breaks the game, and makes it unplayable from any sort of enjoyability or fun standbpoint.

1) All you have to do to either win the game, or make it so unfun for your human opponents that they don't want to play anymore, is go straight for the siege frigate technology, then spam some planetary siege frigates and start going from planet to planet taking out the populations on those planets. This strategy can't really be stopped - EVEN WITH the newest patch which claimed to mitigate it to a certain degree. I just finished a game against the computer (set only on average difficulty). I purposefully went with the advent FOR THE SOLE PURPOSE of trying to stop this bullcrap strategy that I knew the computer would employ. My strategy was to use fighters against these siege frigates, so the first thing I did was bring in the carrier cap ship, and equip it with fighters, and also extra fighters for each group. Then, I researched the hanger tech as quickly as possible, and upgraded it so that each hanger would have additional fighters. After I took a few planets, I put down 3 hangers on two of my outlying systems where I knew attacking forces would have to come through. I filled the upgraded hangers with fighters, and also built a fleet to support my cap ship.

Bottom line, this strat failed at all to stop the "siege frigate" strategy. At all. In one instance, all the computer needed was 7 of these siege frigates to take out my planet's population (in the other instance, he sent 19, LOL). Even in the case of just 7 siege frigates, against 3 fully upgraded hangers stocked with fighters, AND ALSO the civilian bomb shelters I had built on the planet, he successfully removed the entire population, and then moved on. Someone might say "well you should have built more hangers." Well sure, my intention was to eventually max out hangers at as many planets as I could, however don't I also have a fleet to build? Don't I have other things to spend money on besides hangers? Also, do you think 6 or 7 hangers would have stopped the 19 ships the guy sent in the next attack?

Anyone can employ this bullcrap strategy (not just the computer). Are there defenses? Perhaps. But the defenses are so extreme as to make the game a crappy experience. For instance, you could build your own force of siege frigates and play "siege frigate tag" with your opponent, and forever be prepared to blow up his worlds too, complete with colony ships which then place your own colonies down as his are eliminated. You can then play "planetary musical chairs" with your opponent - keep blowing up each other's planets and switching colonies back and forth until one guy gets sick of it and quits.

You could try to build ships and defenses which counter his siege frigates, and hunt down all of his siege frigates, but it won't work (I tried - see above). He can take your planets out before you can take his ships out, and then he can run. Oh, you can chase him (and I did, through star system after star system after star system), but you won't catch him (or, if you did, you'd spend so much time chasing him around that you'd still lose because you'd be neglecting all the other aspects of the game).

2) The first problem might not be so bad if it weren't for this problem: You can't control or lock down phase lanes strategically, which is just plain weird considering that this is a strategy game, and it just seems obvious that a space strategy game should allow the strategic use of star systems and phase lanes (otherwise the only strategy you are employing is what sorts of ships to build and what sorts of techs to research).

At any rate, this severe game weakness combined with the first one just makes for an unplayable game condition from the way I look at it. Systems are undefendable, phase lanes and star systems are uncontrollable from a strategic standpoint, and the game is an endless game of "phase lane tag" at the very best.

What's weird is, the underlying game itself seems to be a great game. The engine handles a lot of micromanagement for you, the graphics are good, the concept of the game is great, on and on. Yet they made these totally BIZARRE choices on gameplay mechanics and balance, and there really is no excuse for it at all. Why make it so siege frigates can take down a planet so easily which even has defenses and a fleet in place? Why make it so the PJI sucks? The only guess I have is that the developers (who seem very capable and talented) strongly catered to the feedback of their beta tester audience, which I'm guessing represented a poor sample for what most strategy gamers want as far as gameplay mechanics in a game like this. Either that, or they just had bizzare ideas on their own for what constituted a good gameplay mechanic.

At any rate, this pretty much ends my participation in this game, and I won't be playing it anymore, or recommending it to anyone else, which is too bad, because like I said the game had serious potential, and the developers seem extremely competent in the work they did on the game from a technical standpoint. It's quite strange - the game has so much promise and potential. It was the "game that could have been"... but I suppose in the end, it sadly wasn't.
71,039 views 105 replies
Reply #51 from Sins Forums Top
I'm new to this game and am a very casual stategy gamer so forgive me if I f**k this post up.I just played a game against a medium opponent and proceeded to get my ass kicked. My enemy sent about 20 siege frigs. to 1 of my planets where I had 10 cobalts,4 perchon carriers, 3 kodiaks and a kol class cap ship(+about5 gauss turrets and 2 hangars w/ fighters and bombers) with wich i reduced to 13 siege frigs. before they jumped to their planet I persued them but as soon as the ships got therethe ememy's frigsjumped back and bombed the hell out of the planet.
Reply #52 from Sins Forums Top
i think this should help:

- increase max population limit on planets and objects and increase shelter effectivity
- slow the bombers down so fighters can handle them
- decrease bombers hull - it is in 1.02 patch but maybe it can be a little more..
- increase those phase delay machines

and similar things... the point is that you must make bombers to be after-real-fight solution, where defence is destroyed - and only after that bombers can be deployed on battlefield to do their job, they must not be involved in classic battle, they r cleaners, not capable to sustain a normal fight

Simply we must somehow force the cpu and human players to change their
tactics. peace :)
Curtains - Customize Windows with additional styles
Reply #53 from Sins Forums Top
In a single player game, I'm in awe how you guys are having so much trouble with these siege ships. It does not cost much to place 20 turrets around your planet and upgrade the the planet health. Get your economy going before you start taking these planets so you can upgrade once you take them. I play hard AI, and the only way they EVER take a planet of mine is by combining arms and attacking together with a massive fleet.

Reply #54 from Sins Forums Top
the point is to prevent the stupid only-bombers-tactics which is kinda stupid - thats the main point
Reply #55 from Sins Forums Top
And Agent of Kharma - I think the devs will handle this things in time so its not necessery to chuck up the sponge ;-)
Reply #56 from Sins Forums Top
Siege frigates are barely worth building as is. They really don't need another nerf. Even a handful of regular frigates can blast a siege force pretty good.
End of quote


Right.
Because they are just 4 planet killing. BUT those siege raids are just running and phase jumping von planet to plant und are u r right behind them for years.
They may only do little damage to planets because they r on the run, but its annoying to chase them. And if they dont run and just go 4 one planet (the one u fall in love with) u cant do shit about it. They will destroy it. And if i go chasing them with just a "handfull of regular frigates" this brainfucking chase will last forever.

Siege and phase jumping stuff needs to be patched.
Maybe they can add a button for people like u. A pain in the ass button that makes things again like it is now.
Reply #57 from Sins Forums Top
I've been playing on a 160 - 300 planet map at home and lan, whilst they become extremely difficult to manage as there are lots of things going on, don't forget that your opponents have the same restrictions as you do, so it's really about being in the right place at the right time, cheap tactics begin to work here especially towards end game.
Reply #58 from Sins Forums Top
I agree with jcoven. Had your three hangars been loaded with bombers and not fighters, things would certainly have gone much differently. Add in a few turrets and repair hangar about mid-well, and you'd have maybe been unlucky enough to lose ~1k planet health before the bombers and turrets dusted off the frigs.

For their cost, Siege Frigates are balanced as they are IMO. They can't cost what they do and be so fragile as to be a liability.

As for PJIs, I think they are just a little underpowered and could use a little love. Still, you can't expect a PJI to make it possible for fighters to kill off frigs any quicker.

I would recommend loading a save and trying it again with bombers in your carrier cap and hangars. "If you quit, you lose... Permanently."

-AB
Reply #59 from Sins Forums Top
I think somewhere in this thread there was a suggestion for a "sitting duck" modifier for siege frigates, which I think sounds like a pretty interesting idea. The siege frigate could be left as is, but when it's actively bombarding a planet it could have a +100% damage modifier or something. That way it won't be too weak to have it be a part of the main fleet, yet it won't be feasible to nuke a planet before the defences are mostly neutralized.

While I haven't really had much problem with siege spams, I do find it irritating from time to time that a planet can get relatively easily bombarded while the defences are still live and kicking. It just makes sense that the defences would have to be taken care of before bombardment can begin. The way it is now feels too much like a spammy-clickfest-RTS sort of game (which I hate).

Though as I said it's only a minor annoyance. Sins is probably the best game I've played in a few years :)
Reply #60 from Sins Forums Top
Sometime it feels like I'm playing a different game when I come to the forums :)

What I'd be curious to see is some save games from the people having so much trouble with their planets getting smacked and defenses that feel so useless. My personal experience has been quite a bit different and a fully defended planet is virutally untouchable by the AI even with two or three 'hard' AI trying at the same time.

I do see some common bits in the posts though so here's a few things that I do differently...

First, 3 hangars does not constitute 'fully defended' in fact 3 hanagars is minimal defense. Hangars are extremely effective but if you're only going to place three of them you're probably better off not placing any. I typically put at least four around any planet if not five. With the Advent this is a frightening defense, 15 bomber squads will trash a group of 20 siege frigates before they even get to fire a single shot at your planet and you'll soon start to wonder why you even bothered with the weapon platforms.

Second, there are no safe planets. I don't care if your homeworld can only be reached by flying past ten of your most heavily defended planets and three massive fleets, it's not safe and can't go without defenses. Every planet regardless of where it is deserves a full compliment of defenses.

Third, don't auto-place structures and don't spread your turrets out around the edge of the gravity well. So what if they can fly past this planet and get to the next (see #2 above) if they can't do anything to the planet the most you'll lose are a few trade ships. Pack your defenses in tightly so they are all covered by a single repair facility and so all of your defense platforms have overlapping fields of fire. Defense platforms work best as your last line of defense, not your first. Don't be afraid to adapt, if your opponent is using siege frigate rushes skip the repair facility and use those slots for extra platforms. I also avoid PJI's entirely, opting instead for extra platforms or hangars.

Finally, you don't need a monster fleet to defend your planets. Frigates alone in sufficient numbers will do fine (LRMs can be amazing here), a few cruisers here and there won't hurt if they're fast enough to reach the attackers before it's too late, capships deserve to be on the front line brining the fight to your opponent. A relatively small group of 20 frigates combined with proper planetary defenses will be more than enough to deal with any frigate rushes. If there is anyplace where those flimsy light carriers are useful it's for planetary defenses, if you're lucky enough to have a single chokepoint and drop about 20 of them in on top of the planet's own hangars in the sector... well, it won't be pretty :)

Maybe it's more about overall strategy? Are those of you having problems with frigate 'spam' attacking your enemies? Do you use pirates? There has to be something going on that makes this such a non-issue for me and some other people and game-breaking for others. I'm worried that if things are 'nerfed' any further it will only throw other aspects even further out of balance. I did not participate in the beta, I didn't follow this game from the moment it was first concieved, in fact I bought it on a whim since I like Stardock without reading much about it. So my experience in the game is limited to what, five days now? Maybe it has nothing to do with strategy, maybe it's the game settings... I play on slow speed with slow research and normal resources, I've played on several different maps depending on the number of opponents. I only play against the AI, right now I play against hard AI sometimes as a FFA and sometimes with them on locked teams.
Reply #61 from Sins Forums Top
It seems that this thread's OP title has been changed and toned down. Whoever did that editing made a great judgment call.

Agent of Kharma 's OP expressed valid points : it was his choice of thread title that was problematical (even though it was an eye-catcher that did attract me to his post, on an early Sunday morning).
Reply #62 from Sins Forums Top
I don`t think, that the problem is to defend yourself from such tactics. The real problem is the fact, that such tactics shouldn`t work at all. It`s like playing Total War, sitting in your fortress and being attacked by twenty siege machines with no other troops around. It`s just stupid!
Same think with defending chokepoints. Sure, it shouldn`t be impossible to get a fleet through a system. But if it is heavily defended, it should be HELL for an attacker to get through.
Reply #63 from Sins Forums Top
Planets with maxed out population, and maxed out emergency shelters, and maxed out planetary defenses, need to last a long time under a seige frigate assault. a very long time.

And phase intercepts need to work, period. The ai doesn't seem to be bothered by them in the slightest.
Reply #64 from Sins Forums Top
You have valid points in you argument Agent of Kharma, but the title and your conclusion (buhuu, i wont play this game any more!) are just plain stupid. Come on, the game has been you for a week! If you really are an old time strategy gamer you should know that in this game, like in every good strategy game you need to learn the rules and game mechanics to win, or even fully enjoy the game. Yes this games have some problems, and yes it is not perfect. But it's still (to me) a wonderful game. I mean to make a game with a scope like this without flaws from the release day is pretty much impossible, i think. And perfection is in the beholders eye anyway.
And even with great flaws games can be great. Empires in Arms, an old Avalon Hill board game springs to mind. It's one of my all time favourite board games, and still it's one of the most flawed, game mechanics-wise i've played. That's because of the scope (it takes months to play the full campaign) of it and probably not enough game testing (see previous parenthesis).
But here you have one of the greatest possibilities you'll ever have to actually influence the game in the direction you want and you just decide to leave. Well, that's your decision. I'm sorry if this seems rude, it's not my intention. I just happen to think your so very wrong in your conclusions.

So over to siege frigates.
While i have no problems with dealing with the siege frigates as it is now, i still think there is a problem with them. They should be called siege frigates for a reason. And in my humble opinion dustinjas solution could work. The point defence idea, that is. Maybe give the defensive turrets the possibility to shoot down planet bound missiles? Or an easier solution might be to make them have an "aura" that reduces the planet bombardment damage of any ships within range. I think that would keep siege frigates as a viable option and still let you build a good defence. A good player can guide their frigates around the defence, or take out the key defence platforms and start to bomb. A good defensive players can place defensive turrets in a good formation and try to keep them alive, while their bombers take out the frigates.

As to the PJI:s i don't have a problem with them as it is now. But complete phase lane blocking is not a good option to me. I remember in the beta (1?) your PIJ:s completely disabled phase jumping, even to a friendly system, trapping enemy fleets. That was horrible.
But other people have better arguments on this topic, so I'll leave it to them.

And finally thank you Blair and the rest of you in Ironclad/Stardock. To actually feel like you are contributing to the game and to see that you actually listen to people, even people that titles their posts in this awful manner warms my heart.

Hold your head up high, and we will thread, together, on towards that sunny green hill that is the future of planetary bombardments!

Or, well, just keep up the good work :)
Reply #65 from Sins Forums Top

I don`t think, that the problem is to defend yourself from such tactics. The real problem is the fact, that such tactics shouldn`t work at all. It`s like playing Total War, sitting in your fortress and being attacked by twenty siege machines with no other troops around. It`s just stupid!
Same think with defending chokepoints. Sure, it shouldn`t be impossible to get a fleet through a system. But if it is heavily defended, it should be HELL for an attacker to get through.
End of quote


Yeah, it's not that it can't be (plausibly) stopped, its just that such a ridiculous tactic shouldn't even have a chance, particularly when the game markets combined arms as vital to victory.
Reply #66 from Sins Forums Top
And as usual i forget to update the thread before posting a long post. My bad
Reply #67 from Sins Forums Top
I don`t think, that the problem is to defend yourself from such tactics. The real problem is the fact, that such tactics shouldn`t work at all. It`s like playing Total War, sitting in your fortress and being attacked by twenty siege machines with no other troops around. It`s just stupid!
Same think with defending chokepoints. Sure, it shouldn`t be impossible to get a fleet through a system. But if it is heavily defended, it should be HELL for an attacker to get through.
End of quote

I understand that, and from my point of view the 'tactic' doesn't work at all. In all of my games to date (which is unfortunately limited, but no more limited than many other people here) I haven't lost a properly defended planet yet. In my earlier games I lost a couple of planets to pirates, but they used mixed groups and I didn't have a clue what I was doing at the time.

If your planet defenses are tough it is hell on any fleet that passes through without attacking. Several smaller ships will be lost and many others damaged, if I take manual control I can pick off capships by the time they reach the second or third planet on their trip through my space, sometimes sooner for the weaker support capships.

Since a lot of people like naval analogies with space combat look at the way modern naval fleets operate. They don't try to control the entire ocean, it's too big, instead they focus on strategic areas and are ready to respond to other incursions as needed. You can take a similar approach relatively easily in Sins you just have to accept that fact that it's open space, not a castle (or any type of 'base' from other RTS games) so things are going to get through, sometimes quite easily. Once you understand, accept and even embrace that strategic element in Sins it becomes easier to manage because you shift your focus from 'stopping' the enemy fleets to waging a war of attrition, which you will almost always win in your own space. If you chase them and they run they're either running into your defenses at another planet or runing out of your space, so if you're prepared it won't matter. The only reason to chase them would be if it's a large enough fleet to actually inflict some damage, but then that has nothing to do with siege frigate spam as is the tpic for an entirely new thread. :)

Reply #68 from Sins Forums Top
What I don't understand is why people don't post screenshots of their defenses or post replays, so they can be shown where they're wrong and where they're right.. Personally, I also think that the siege frigs can (or at least could, haven't had a chance to update yet) take too much punishemnt but it's hardly impossible to defend against once you learn the strengths and weaknesses of your defenses.

Here's a screenshot of an asteroid at a chokepoint from a single player game:



Now, the reason why they're not perfectly spread around the asteroid is that there is limited access to it, so I placed a few extra turrets closer towards the phase lane they can enter through. I'd like to see a siege frig group that can go through that and actually kill my asteroid.. If it was multiplayer, a very determined player could probably do it but it would be both a massive waste of resources, as many sieges would die, as well as very unlikely, since an asteroid is dirt cheap and fast to upgrade.

Needless to say, the 20 siege frigs the AI sends just turn and run.

So no, 3 hangars are not enough and neither are 5 turrets. What I did here might be considered overkill but it's not like I have anything else to use the asteroid for, as it serves exclusively as a cheap and effective fleet stopper/delayer that can be rebuilt in no time.

So if someone, and especially OP, would please post a screenshot of their defenses it would make it much easier to see if they've placed their guns far, far away from planet/asteroids or whatever else could be wrong.

PS. The quality of the pic sucks a bit since I just re-saved it in Paint 'cause I was lazy.. The icons should be clear enough to see, anyway.
Reply #69 from Sins Forums Top
On siege frigates, I'll say it again: Of *course* siege frigates can be countered - that's not the point. Make 1 siege frigate 10,000 times more powerful that the most powerful cap ship in the game, and it is *still* counterable, because if nothing else, you can just spam them the way your opponent does, so YES, IT IS COUNTERABLE - WE AGREE. So the issue isn't "counterability," the issue is whether or not this is a sensible game play mechanic. You could literally scramble all of the unit stats right now amongst each other, and whatever comes out of it will still be counterable, but will it be a good game?

Somebody up there said "Just because the strategy is annoying doesn't mean it is overpowered." In fact, my point, if you read my original post, is that it *IS* annoying (not overpowered - the word "overpowered" doesn't make sense in a game where you can simply mimic your opponent). The question isn't whether it is overpowered. The question is whether it makes sense that a siege unit can simply walk past your forces and your stationary defenses and start bombing your planet, with there being little to nothing that you can do about it. I mean, why did I build turrets, and a fleet? Are they just potted plants? So is it counterable? Sure - just do the same to your opponent. The question is, "does this make for a good game play mechanic?"

Someone asked why I chose to counter with fighters instead of bombers or something else. I chose this because it was recommended, due to the fact that fighters are good against lightly armored units where as bombers are good against things like structures and cap ships. But I have tried every other unit to counter them with as well. Bottom line, it doesn't make sense to get bogged down in what I countered them with because we already agree this strat is counterable. Since all sides have siege frigates available, of *course* it's counterable. The question, again, is "does this game play mechanic make sense?"

Why is there even an argument about this? Come on - let's do a poll. Who out there would raise their hand and say that this current siege frigate is their idea of what a siege frigate should be? Now, who out there would raise their hand and say that a siege frigate should be a weak unit with low survivability that is very easy to kill, who's job is to come in AFTER PLANETARY DEFENSES HAVE BEEN TAKEN DOWN, and AFTER THE ENEMY FLEET HAS BEEN DESTROYED, and then remove the colony? I will raise my hand for option number two. I will be mega-surprised if many people vote for number one, and if they do I will apologize to everyone on this forum for wasting their time, and go away. I mean, it's possible that I have a closed-minded and miopic view of what a siege frigate should be, but I honestly think more people are with me on this than against me.

There have been some remarks about the AI. My position is that the AI is fine, and the fact that it builds siege frigates is fine. The problem is the siege frigate itself, not the AI. And remember, humans can (and do) do the same thing - spam siege frigates. The question isn't the AI. The question is whether or not the siege frigate makes sense in it's current form.

Some people above have claimed that siege frigates don't need to be nerfed. But come on, who's feelings would it hurt if it was nerfed? Who out there is in love with the siege frigate, please raise your hand? The siege frigate is not a special unit, and it is not a unit exclusive to a faction - if it was I could see people being far more sensitive to nerfing it. Nerfing it wouldn't be like nerfing the Protoss Reaver or High Templar, or the Hierarchy's Walkers in Universe at war. The siege frigate is not a special, beloved, faction-specific exclusive unit - it is a generic, boring, vanilla unit available to all factions. I doubt many people would scream bloody murder if it was nerfed.
Reply #70 from Sins Forums Top
Damn, the link didn't work right so you can't click the small screen to get a bigger one X-(
It's pretty much all turrets anyway, though (the purple spots on the small pic).
Reply #71 from Sins Forums Top


Since a lot of people like naval analogies with space combat look at the way modern naval fleets operate. They don't try to control the entire ocean, it's too big, instead they focus on strategic areas and are ready to respond to other incursions as needed. You can take a similar approach relatively easily in Sins you just have to accept that fact that it's open space, not a castle (or any type of 'base' from other RTS games) so things are going to get through, sometimes quite easily. Once you understand, accept and even embrace that strategic element in Sins it becomes easier to manage because you shift your focus from 'stopping' the enemy fleets to waging a war of attrition, which you will almost always win in your own space. If you chase them and they run they're either running into your defenses at another planet or runing out of your space, so if you're prepared it won't matter. The only reason to chase them would be if it's a large enough fleet to actually inflict some damage, but then that has nothing to do with siege frigate spam as is the tpic for an entirely new thread.


End of quote


If it would be the same like Sword of the Stars, where ships don`t need to travel phase lanes (dependent on race), then i would be ok with it. But those phase lanes seem to have a tactical reason. Or, at least, they should have a reason. In fact, a planet that needs to be traversed by a fleet in this game, resembles far more a castle, then open space. And it seems somehow too easy, to traverse a defended planet.
And if the tactic with spamming siege frigates doesn`t work, then the AI shouldn`t use it. Stardock has a reputation to defend, when it comes to things that involve AI. I don`t think, that they want the AI to use stupid tactics. And i don`t think Ironclad want it, either.
My concern isn`t about the possibility to defend myself from certain tactics. It`s just, that some tactics feel wrong somehow.
Reply #72 from Sins Forums Top
Who out there would raise their hand and say that this current siege frigate is their idea of what a siege frigate should be?
End of quote


I would. The unit, as designed and described, makes sense. Maybe a rename is in order -- its a planetary bombardment frigates, not a "siege" unit as such -- but if you read the manual, its specifically noted as being a heavily armored unit. And its not like its that hard to counter -- without duplicating the tactic.

Admittedly, I hated it the first time I encountered it -- but I learned to adjust quickly enough.
Reply #73 from Sins Forums Top
Admittedly, from what`s written in the manual, it makes sense. But somehow, it feels wrong nevertheless. The whole concept of a class of ships that can practically destroy a planet and defend itself without support while doing it, doesn`t seem right. It shouldn`t be possible to do certain things without combined arms. Otherwise, we could go back playing C&C, and doing tank rushes. That works, too. But it doesn`t make it feel right...
Reply #74 from Sins Forums Top

I would. The unit, as designed and described, makes sense.
End of quote


Okay we got me and Ron Lugge voting here. Come on people, let's have a show of hands. Anybody else?
Reply #75 from Sins Forums Top
Siege machines were never weapons which could operate without support of other troops. And they shouldn`t be in this game, either. It defies the need for combined arms.
So, this weapon is not my idea of a siege frigate.