Agent of Kharma Agent of Kharma

Gameplay mechanic Issue

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Gameplay mechanic Issue

Too bad, I wanted to like this game

from Sins Forums
I'm a die-hard strategy game junky, and have been playing these games for decades, even before PCs had them (in the olden days you had to play them on mainframes). I have been tracking this particular game for about a year before it came out, and had extremely high hopes.

My problem with the game is the horrible gameplay mechanic, which I belive is a crappy synergy of a few bad balance decisions these guys made. It breaks the game, and makes it unplayable from any sort of enjoyability or fun standbpoint.

1) All you have to do to either win the game, or make it so unfun for your human opponents that they don't want to play anymore, is go straight for the siege frigate technology, then spam some planetary siege frigates and start going from planet to planet taking out the populations on those planets. This strategy can't really be stopped - EVEN WITH the newest patch which claimed to mitigate it to a certain degree. I just finished a game against the computer (set only on average difficulty). I purposefully went with the advent FOR THE SOLE PURPOSE of trying to stop this bullcrap strategy that I knew the computer would employ. My strategy was to use fighters against these siege frigates, so the first thing I did was bring in the carrier cap ship, and equip it with fighters, and also extra fighters for each group. Then, I researched the hanger tech as quickly as possible, and upgraded it so that each hanger would have additional fighters. After I took a few planets, I put down 3 hangers on two of my outlying systems where I knew attacking forces would have to come through. I filled the upgraded hangers with fighters, and also built a fleet to support my cap ship.

Bottom line, this strat failed at all to stop the "siege frigate" strategy. At all. In one instance, all the computer needed was 7 of these siege frigates to take out my planet's population (in the other instance, he sent 19, LOL). Even in the case of just 7 siege frigates, against 3 fully upgraded hangers stocked with fighters, AND ALSO the civilian bomb shelters I had built on the planet, he successfully removed the entire population, and then moved on. Someone might say "well you should have built more hangers." Well sure, my intention was to eventually max out hangers at as many planets as I could, however don't I also have a fleet to build? Don't I have other things to spend money on besides hangers? Also, do you think 6 or 7 hangers would have stopped the 19 ships the guy sent in the next attack?

Anyone can employ this bullcrap strategy (not just the computer). Are there defenses? Perhaps. But the defenses are so extreme as to make the game a crappy experience. For instance, you could build your own force of siege frigates and play "siege frigate tag" with your opponent, and forever be prepared to blow up his worlds too, complete with colony ships which then place your own colonies down as his are eliminated. You can then play "planetary musical chairs" with your opponent - keep blowing up each other's planets and switching colonies back and forth until one guy gets sick of it and quits.

You could try to build ships and defenses which counter his siege frigates, and hunt down all of his siege frigates, but it won't work (I tried - see above). He can take your planets out before you can take his ships out, and then he can run. Oh, you can chase him (and I did, through star system after star system after star system), but you won't catch him (or, if you did, you'd spend so much time chasing him around that you'd still lose because you'd be neglecting all the other aspects of the game).

2) The first problem might not be so bad if it weren't for this problem: You can't control or lock down phase lanes strategically, which is just plain weird considering that this is a strategy game, and it just seems obvious that a space strategy game should allow the strategic use of star systems and phase lanes (otherwise the only strategy you are employing is what sorts of ships to build and what sorts of techs to research).

At any rate, this severe game weakness combined with the first one just makes for an unplayable game condition from the way I look at it. Systems are undefendable, phase lanes and star systems are uncontrollable from a strategic standpoint, and the game is an endless game of "phase lane tag" at the very best.

What's weird is, the underlying game itself seems to be a great game. The engine handles a lot of micromanagement for you, the graphics are good, the concept of the game is great, on and on. Yet they made these totally BIZARRE choices on gameplay mechanics and balance, and there really is no excuse for it at all. Why make it so siege frigates can take down a planet so easily which even has defenses and a fleet in place? Why make it so the PJI sucks? The only guess I have is that the developers (who seem very capable and talented) strongly catered to the feedback of their beta tester audience, which I'm guessing represented a poor sample for what most strategy gamers want as far as gameplay mechanics in a game like this. Either that, or they just had bizzare ideas on their own for what constituted a good gameplay mechanic.

At any rate, this pretty much ends my participation in this game, and I won't be playing it anymore, or recommending it to anyone else, which is too bad, because like I said the game had serious potential, and the developers seem extremely competent in the work they did on the game from a technical standpoint. It's quite strange - the game has so much promise and potential. It was the "game that could have been"... but I suppose in the end, it sadly wasn't.
71,045 views 105 replies
Reply #76 from Sins Forums Top
i personally agree that the siege frigate as it sits right now is fine. I have never had a problem with them taking my worlds (though most of my games have been vs the AI), nor have they ever caused me enough issues that the defenses i would build on a border/choke-point world was incapable of removing them from existence before my planet was killed. As Ron Lugge said they fit the description from the manual.
Reply #77 from Sins Forums Top
If they fit that description specifically, then why was the survivability of the unit reduced in patch 1.02?
Star Control: Origins
Reply #78 from Sins Forums Top
While I personally havent seen any real problems with Siege Frigates, I wouldnt be opposed to seeing their DEFENSIVE capabilities reduced a bit. I do sort of agree that they shouldnt be able to sit there and withstand enemy fleets/defensese and still bomb the planet senseless.

Opposed bombardment should maybe be tougher, but once the defenses/fleet are gone, I wouldnt want to see it take any longer to take out a planet than it already does.
Reply #79 from Sins Forums Top
Maybe a rename is in order -- its a planetary bombardment frigates, not a "siege" unit as such
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That's probably the best suggestion I've heard yet :)

I'd even go so far as to rename it to 'Heavy Frigate' and leave the bombardment out of the name entirely.

...and say that a siege frigate should be a weak unit with low survivability that is very easy to kill
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If it isn't overpowered why should it be made weaker? Wouldn't a suggestion to redeuce the effectiveness be the same as implying that it is too powerful as is?

Look, I don't want to argue semantics or history, it's a game as you pointed out. So looking at it purely as a part of the game as a whole is it broken? I'll still say no, sure it *might* work if you send a group of them to raid a planet, then again, I *might* easily destroy them all long before they reach their intended target. So it obviously doean't work 100% of the time in all situations regardless of the defenders configuration, preparedness or response. So in that sense it is optional, you have a choice to use it or not just as you have choices of how you set up your defenses. Right now you have a choice, you can use a 'siege rush' and it might work, or you can invest your time and resources into something else that has a better chance of working, if they will never work than you no longer have the choice. Personally, I fail to see how removing a choice from a strategy game can improve it. Yes, you can argue that when one choice is obviously superior there is no real choice, but then you have to prove that this 'siege' rush is obviously superior, something that will probably prove impossible against anything other than an AI opponent with their lackluster defenses.

Of course you could remove their shields and take them down to 1 hull point and I guarantee a human opponent who knows how to use the Z axis would still get them in and trash your planet without ever taking a hit from any of the defense platforms. So what would making them weaker accomplish other than making it easier to slaughter the AI?
Reply #80 from Sins Forums Top
Look at it like this.

He sends 15 siege frigates, and your in system defenses kill them before the planet is destroyed. You lose a small amount of credit income for a little while, and suffer no permanent casualties (if it's only siege frigates, they'll just be attacking the planet, not anything else), he loses mass amounts of credits, metal, and crystals, plus, he gave your capital ship (if it happens to be in system) a bunch of free experience.

If he attacks an asteroid with those 15 siege frigates and you're underdefended, and you lose the asteroid but kill some/most of the 15 frigates, you've still won, you lost a little credit income, and the cost of rebuilding 1 level of habitability (there's no reason to build tactical and economic levels back up if you've already placed all the buildings you can), while he has again, lost lots in invested resources/money.

I haven't lost a planet yet to a force of pure siege weapons so I don't really have details on that scenario, it would be expensive to repair, but there's still a moderate chance he'd lose more resources than you, depending on how many siege frigates you destroy.
Reply #81 from Sins Forums Top
The OP's strategy to fight the Siege frigates is a bit flawed. The defense hangars are nice to have around, but they will never stop a fleet of anything. The hangars are meant to slow the enemy down and to weaken them.

I recommend using the Long Range frigates and/or drone carrier ships to help defeat these things. Of course, you can't go wrong with the standard frigate. If a small amount of siege frigates are leveling your planets then you absolutely must learn to upgrade your planet so that it will have more health.

Fighters should work well against Siege frigates... at least they claim to. Bombers are meant for bigger ships.

I think people need to post the recordings of these matches... because I just don't see the problem.
Reply #82 from Sins Forums Top

He sends 15 siege frigates, and your in system defenses kill them before the planet is destroyed.
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What, are you nuts? Your in-system defenses aren't going to kill 15 siege frigates. In-system defenses just aren't worth jack crap (that's the 3rd severe problem with the game, in addition to the PJI and the ridiculous siege frigate). I have no idea what game you people are playing, but it certainly isn't the same game I'm playing.


The OP's strategy to fight the Siege frigates is a bit flawed. The defense hangars are nice to have around, but they will never stop a fleet of anything. The hangars are meant to slow the enemy down and to weaken them.
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I have used everything to fight the siege frigates. I went to hangers as yet *ANOTHER* attempt to try to counter siege frigates with yet something else, wanting to make sure there was something I wasn't missing before junking this game.

Hey, go ahead and support the siege frigate in its current form - fine by me! I mean, it's a retarded gameplay mechanic, but its no skin off my nose if the game stays ridiculous.

Enjoy!
Reply #83 from Sins Forums Top
You can only do so much with PJI. The way it was in beta, if you wanted to have any hope of winning late game, you needed to have bombers to kill teh PJIs while your fleet was moving to the next jump location.
Reply #84 from Sins Forums Top

What, are you nuts? Your in-system defenses aren't going to kill 15 siege frigates. In-system defenses just aren't worth jack crap (that's the 3rd severe problem with the game, in addition to the PJI and the ridiculous siege frigate). I have no idea what game you people are playing, but it certainly isn't the same game I'm playing.
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15 TEC siege frigates cost 7800 credits, 1050 metal and 900 crystal. That's significantly more expensive than a Novalith Cannon, which kills an asteroid instantly. For the same price you could construct 25+ light frigates or 2 capital ships.

Discounting time to get in position, it takes about 80 seconds for 15 siege frigates to kill an upgraded asteroid. If instead you faced two level 1 Marza Dreadnoughts with Raze Planet, they would take 130 seconds to kill the upgraded asteroid and would likely level much of the system in the process.

A handful of guard frigates would wreak havoc on the sieges in that time; if he can afford to throw an armada's worth of resources away on siege frigates, you can certainly afford some guards.

Even a simple grid of 5 defense platforms set around an asteroid will kill more credits in siege frigates than it will cost you to recolonize.

I've had good players smash gigantic fleets against the, uh, rock of a well defended asteroid. Defenses are fine.

Reply #85 from Sins Forums Top
If he has 15 siege frigates, that's 180 supply. A system full of defenses, which has a good chance of stopping the siege, costs 0 supply. If an enemy has 180 less points of combat supply as you, you should be able to mop the floor with his fleet and destroy his economy, unless it's middle to late game, in which case you could build 15 kodiak heavy corvettes for less credits and supply (but slightly more resources) than his 15 sieges, and they would deal heavy casulties to his 15 siege frigates. Those also come with the intercept ability, so they can rapidly close to the siege frigates or catch them if they try to escape.

Right now, sieges are really only effective in mixed groups, or if the system is pretty much undefended, which is how it works in just about every rts. If you left a base with no units and just towers in warcraft 3, an enemy can just mow it down with only siege units, same with Age of empires, Star trek armada 2, battle for middle earth, starcraft, total annihilation, etc. etc.
Reply #86 from Sins Forums Top

If they fit that description specifically, then why was the survivability of the unit reduced in patch 1.02?
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"Because it shouldn't take more effort to defend against a tactic than to use it". And for many who haven't had the time to learn how to defend against such tactics, it does take a lot of effort. For those of us that do so as a matter of course... it doesn't take so much effort. And if you look, the survivability "nerf" was fairly minor.
Reply #87 from Sins Forums Top

15 TEC siege frigates cost 7800 credits, 1050 metal and 900 crystal. That's significantly more expensive than a Novalith Cannon, which kills an asteroid instantly. For the same price you could construct 25+ light frigates or 2 capital ships.
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Uh... your point?


Discounting time to get in position, it takes about 80 seconds for 15 siege frigates to kill an upgraded asteroid. If instead you faced two level 1 Marza Dreadnoughts with Raze Planet, they would take 130 seconds to kill the upgraded asteroid and would likely level much of the system in the process.
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Uh... your point?


A handful of guard frigates would wreak havoc on the sieges in that time
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Okay, with the above it's painfully obvious that you simply don't know what you are talking about. So there is little point in discussing it further.

Have a nice day.
Reply #88 from Sins Forums Top
Agent, why don't you upload the replay somewhere so that I can look at it and see what happened in said game, because I have yet to see this happen and would be interested to see. The game auto-saves the replays in C:\Documents and Settings\[YOUR WINDOWS USER NAME HERE]\Local Settings\Application Data\Ironclad Games\Sins of a Solar Empire\AutoRecord-Singleplayer , so all you would have to do is upload it and link it.
Reply #89 from Sins Forums Top

Agent, why don't you upload the replay somewhere so that I can look at it and see what happened....
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Hi Durikkan, thanks for the post. I can't upload anything because I uninstalled the game and completely wiped that drive so I could use it for something else. However, it's not complicated - what I said happened above happened, and it has happened multiple times, not only to me but to tons of other people. The problem is well-documented, that's why the devs addressed it (albeit only slightly).

If you want to test this, just get online, jump into a game with an unsuspecting victim, go straight to the siege frigate tech (ignoring pretty much anything else), pump out as many as you can in a reasonable amount of time, and head straight for his homeworld. If his fleet sees you on the way, don't stop to fight it, just keep going - his fleet won't be able to catch you. Once you get to his homeworld, just ignore all his defenses and bomb the crap out of his planet. You may lose a few siege frigates if he has tons of defenses, but you won't lose many - I can promise you that. After his planet is terminated, laugh out loud, select your siege frigates, and flee the system. Rinse and reapeat. Post your results here, and I'll check back.

Oh, funny story: there is a guy on these forums who has told me I am wrong in my criticism. Anyway, I downloaded and watched a replay of one of his games. He *himself* used this tactic - not even as a rush, but *well* into the game. He used it against the most powerful player in the game (there were many players) who not only had expanded into the ajacent star system and had taken control of it EXCLUSIVELY (he had the most planets by far, and best economy), but also had the most powerful fleets - multiple fleets in fact. Anyway, he was able to take his fleet of siege frigates through many star systems before arriving at this player's homeworld intact. Once he arrived, he bombed this guy's homeworld to oblivion. If memory serves me correctly, the guy even made it back with one of his fleets, but couldn't stop the devastation. If memory serves yet again, I believe this guy simply took his siege frigates and moved on to other planets in this guy's system.
Reply #90 from Sins Forums Top
I don't see the AI do this much. They very rarely send a fleet in to one of my systems to try and the "siege spam" fails every time against my defenses. If you're far enough into the game for the AI to be sending 20 siege frigates at you you're also far enough in the game to defend the front lines with more than 3 hangars, that's just pathetic. If you're going to send your fleet off you better keep them strategically positioned to respond to threats like this, or you need to get better defenses.

So far the only defended planet I've ever lost to siege frigates was one that was very heavily defended and the AI managed it because they brought a very large support fleet to engage the defenses while they bombed the planet. The dumbest thing about it was that they didn't continue on... they could have gotten a good two or three systems before I could get enough ships there (main fleet was about 8 jumps away).
Reply #91 from Sins Forums Top
If you want to test this, just get online, jump into a game with an unsuspecting victim, go straight to the siege frigate tech (ignoring pretty much anything else), pump out as many as you can in a reasonable amount of time, and head straight for his homeworld. If his fleet sees you on the way, don't stop to fight it, just keep going - his fleet won't be able to catch you. Once you get to his homeworld, just ignore all his defenses and bomb the crap out of his planet. You may lose a few siege frigates if he has tons of defenses, but you won't lose many - I can promise you that. After his planet is terminated, laugh out loud, select your siege frigates, and flee the system. Rinse and reapeat. Post your results here, and I'll check back.
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Ok. I decided I would first do a game against the hard AI on fortifier to get my build order down and such. At about 6-7 minutes in, I had 7 siege frigates and some time until I got enough resources for the next one, so I attacked, he had a cluster of defense guns that killed 2 sieges on the way through, I got to the planet, and moved to get out of range of his guns. His capital ship was around a different planet, so it had a fair amount of travel time.

Even with his capital ship having to come from a different system, my 7 siege frigates only managed to deal 1800 hp of damage to his homeworld... Out of 4500. So, 7 siege frigates didn't do jack squat to him. His defenses were 3 turrets near the entrance, 1 of the weakest combat ship and 1 capital ship. I lost 3500 credits and a ton of resources, and he lost some credit income for a little bit of time.
Reply #92 from Sins Forums Top
fighters take out bombers and other fighters
bombers take out frigates and bigger ships

thats why your screwing up ur defense
Reply #93 from Sins Forums Top
My point is that 15 siege frigates cost immense amounts of resources and they SHOULD be blowing up your friggin planet if you arn't willing to invest the least actual effort in defending them.

The point of the novalith cannon is that there is an unstoppable method of killing your planet that actually costs less than 15 siege frigates. While we're at it, raid fleets penetrating PJI-strongholds is the principle method of countering Novalith Cannons.

Pirates used to throw 10 siege frigates at you as a matter of course. I've played as many AI games as anyone else, and I've played my fair share of multiplayer, too. I've had lots of experience with siege spam and my experience is that the AI is dumb enough that you can stop its siege raids with close-in defense platforms and bunker upgrades.

In multi you need to be on your toes. Any reasonable number of scout frigates can spot a siege fleet forming and flying a mile away. A player with any reasonable amount of warning can build enough frigates at his homeworld to stop a siege raid - forget having to send your fleet back.
Reply #94 from Sins Forums Top

Uh... your point?
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His point is you are a terrible player! Have a nice day.

Reply #95 from Sins Forums Top
siege frigs = cheap game ender for the person with vastly more military or eco. otherwise they are more than easily countered, although I personally believe they need a bit of rebalance. just not a hell of a lot

locking down phase lanes entirely = moronic, the game is already turtle friendly enough as it is. that being said the PJI does indeed need a boost.
Reply #96 from Sins Forums Top

Even with his capital ship having to come from a different system, my 7 siege frigates only managed to deal 1800 hp of damage to his homeworld... Out of 4500. So, 7 siege frigates didn't do jack squat to him. His defenses were 3 turrets near the entrance, 1 of the weakest combat ship and 1 capital ship. I lost 3500 credits and a ton of resources, and he lost some credit income for a little bit of time.
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Okay, fair enough. The game certainly plays differently for you than it did for me. It only took 7 siege frigates to wreck moderately defended worlds when I was playing, and 19+ siege frigates was just ridiculous overkill.

This guy was evidently playing the same version of the game I was playing:


I just played a game against a medium opponent and proceeded to get my ass kicked. My enemy sent about 20 siege frigs. to 1 of my planets where I had 10 cobalts,4 perchon carriers, 3 kodiaks and a kol class cap ship(+about5 gauss turrets and 2 hangars w/ fighters and bombers) with wich i reduced to 13 siege frigs. before they jumped to their planet I persued them but as soon as the ships got there the ememy's frigs jumped back and bombed the hell out of the planet.
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If your game plays differently, and siege frigates match your idea of what a siege frigate should be, I don't know what else to say. I suppose I see no flaws in your position. Enjoy the game.


siege frigs = cheap game ender for the person with vastly more military or eco. otherwise they are more than easily countered...
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That's an interesting statement, considering that I saw a replay where you personally used siege frigates against someone with vastly more military and eco than *you*, and you did it successfully.

Okay, I give up. I actually believe in democracy, believe it or not. If the majority likes siege frigates the way they are, I'd be the last person to demand that they be changed.

Enjoy the game.
Reply #97 from Sins Forums Top
The really strange thing is that it's actually not a huge disadvantage to lose a planet, which I don't really understand. If the planet is more than 2 jumps from his homeworld, losing the planet will cause all the metal and crystals he gets from the planet to increase. Or if he had only 30% culture there, losing the planet would cause his extractors to start making over 3 times as many resources. As far as I can tell, losing a planet causes you to lose credit income, and the ability to build buildings in that sector. I don't understand why resource collectors become far more effective.
Reply #98 from Sins Forums Top


That's an interesting statement, considering that I saw a replay where you personally used siege frigates against someone with vastly more military and eco than *you*, and you did it successfully.


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Tell me this isn't true, since he was extremely adamant about not changing the original strength of the siege frigates. If true, that explains a lot.

Reply #99 from Sins Forums Top

Uh... your point?


Okay, with the above it's painfully obvious that you simply don't know what you are talking about. So there is little point in discussing it further.

Have a nice day.
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Skin.















You're wasting it.

Reply #100 from Sins Forums Top
Notably if we wanted to be true to the concept of siege weapons, then yes we should severely weaken the unit...

and then let its missiles outrange the enemy gauss turrets significantly.

Castles rarely got to fire back apropriately against actual siege weapons. Thats the point, they just out range you and whittle you down... might as well let the LRM bombard at a equal range of its missiles.

Would that be better? Personally I prefer this allot more because my defenses are actually worth a damn... at the very least I know the enemy has to bring both LRM and Siege frigates to attack unscathed... which might buy me time to get my fleet/s there.