LordEngelbert LordEngelbert

Vasari - DA/RA controversy

▼

Vasari - DA/RA controversy

from Sins Forums
This is a vague link from the superweapons post i made before (thanks for replying btw).
With the whole superweapon fiasco, we have decided to ban them in our LANs.
--BUT!!!(and its a big one, i cannot lie)--
The Ban-Stick has not been put away just yet.
I play Vasari as we nearly exclusively play large maps (1 star, 50-60 planets) and there is a general consensus (and a lack of ability due to the time involved) that rushing is off the agenda, leaving people to make their fleets and generally go about their lives in a peaceful manner until some loose cannon starts something.
However, after around 10 games there are rumblings of discontent in the masses (oh no).  Especially tonight there seems to be a campaign of hate against ye olde Returning Armada.  Claims of "hax" and "superweapon" can be heard everywhere and it's getting tiring.  On top of this someone has decided that the phase gates are also unfair and are now probably aiming to get them unofficially "banned" too.  Why?!

Their reasoning is as follows:
1) "Free ships?! WTF! HAX!" - allegedly gaining something for 'free' despite spending insane amounts of resources on a) getting to the stage where you can develop it b) actually developing it and c) building the gates that allow you to (finally) use what you have developed, is a completely criminal act.  After all, no one likes a free-rider, especially one that has already pre-paid.
2) "We have banned superweapons, that there is a superweapon and so, should be banned!" - Sound logic indeed, but i believe the superweapon (yes, WEAPON, not ability) for the Vasari is a gun of the size to make every Freudian psychologist reach for their pen and paper.  It is a big gun, maybe thats stretching the definition of 'superweapon' a bit, but if i had a gun that big i would think it was a weapon...and fairly super too...as would NATO.  It is in the Civic tech tree, not the military.  Besides, the TEC version (Pervasive Economy?) generates so much cash that the ships might as well be free.  Sadly, because TEC is the most popular race no one is about to declare the fact that getting shedloads of cash for free is unfair.  So no ban for the TEC.
3)  "Hmm, the ability to move your units around the map between these phase gates gives you an advantage I don't have.  I fear a banning may be in order...!"  Yes, an advantage you don't have, because if you did have it, it wouldn't be an advantage.  This is why the species are different, so we don't all play the same generic species and spam each other with Scout units...(Bercause everything else has been considered unfair and overpowered and so, brutalised with the ban stick (repeatedly)).  Also the phase gates, you have to pay for and the fact that they take up many a tactical slot is not to be overlooked either!  The transport isn't exactly instant either.  It's just a more direct route.  If these are banned then whats the point in playing Vasari.  That is what they do.  They get to transport everywhere.  It's their party trick.  LEAVE IT ALONE!  Other abilities of other races balance it out.

Thats about it I think.  Sorry to rant.  I know I will get one helluva flaming for this but i'm not stating it as fact, merely as a collection of opinions about what people are saying about the RA to me.  But if the banning of RA occurs then surely the TEC economy doo-dah will go...then the phase gates, then I will demand that TEC lose their trade centres and the Advent lose their culture abilities or something, and the game descends into a pit of boring frigate spams interupted by the one cruiser that a TEC player has managed to build with their now crippled economy...As if mine wasn't when i was saving for the RA...
So, please suggest counter strategies that my fellow gamers can use (without 'superweapons') to defeat this dreadful ploy im using...
Regards and apologies, LE.
21,775 views 54 replies
Reply #26 from Sins Forums Top
Its selective perception.
End of quote

This is true.
If you freely admit you almost exclusively play Vasari, can you really say that your opinion is absolutely objective on the topic of a high end Vasari tech?
End of quote

I was merely giving my views on the arguments put forward by people against RA from the perspective of an RA player. I havent always used Vasari, but i found that it suits my play style on the big maps we play.
Understand im not egotistical enough to think that my opinions are right. I was just responding to what I have heard.
Reply #27 from Sins Forums Top
Reading my post again I should perhaps say that it was not only directed at the OP, although it reads like that.

I wanted to address several posters here who have a very unforgiving stance on the subject which is IMO based on different playing styles and experiences, and not so much on an absolute reality.

I intentionally did not post my opinion about returning armada in the first post (would have been too long then anyway :P).
Elemental: Reforged
Reply #28 from Sins Forums Top
I used REturning Armada for the first time last night. I dont like it. Sure its useful, but I wouldn't mke getting it the focus of my strategy. It has one huge flaw or I guess balancer. I dont know about you guys, but I like to have a certain ratio of ship types. The RA does not allow that. It gives you a nice supply of free ships, but in my experience I prefer using my massive economy and a few planets comepletely devoted to shipyards to chun out a massive force in about the same time, whats better is that I know how many ships I am getting.
Reply #29 from Sins Forums Top
The problem with this tech, I think, is that frankly, most people just aren't very good yet. Fair enough, the game's new. So here's how you counter Returning Armada:

1. Scout. KNOW that they are teching up to this. If it's a multiplayer game, coordinate with your allies to take them out- if the Vasari is fast-teching, you have an effective 1-player advantage for around an hour. USE IT! If it's a single-player game, harass! Their defence force will be small because they can't afford to spend $ on it. Really, you should beat RA fast-tech 1v1 every time- just don't sit back and let them get it.

2. Strike early, BEFORE they get their tech online. You can afford to take losses if you can disrupt them. If they're fast-teching, chances are they only have 3 or 4 planets- taking 1 out is a HUGE loss to them, and should buy you at least 15 minutes.

3. Expand fast, especially as the TEC, and focus on getting a massive economy. I can guarantee that the Vasari are turtling (although I want to practice harassing with maurader while going to RA, it seems like it could be a very effective strategy, but no one does it yet). You've got 3/4 of the galaxy without any competition. If you can get your economy going, you can simply outspend them and amass a larger fleet that way.

4. If you can't stop them before they get their tech online, use a balanced force with lots of support ships. The Vasari player will NOT have any support ships, because RA doesn't send them. They'll have Enforcers (heavy cruisers), Assailants (LRMs), Carriers and Sentinals (flak). Get a good number of support ships and just cripple their fleet- they can't fight back. They're also not likely to have more than 1 cap ship, so use your cap ships to support. That's your advantage. Try engaging them on 1 front with your fleet while sending some siege round the back. They'll likely pull their defending forces to the main battle. If you send your siege (and a few frigates) round the side way, and take out their stabilizer over on that side, you could do some serious damage and they won't be able to quickly move their forces over to stop you, and you can withdraw your main force as soon as you think that their reinforcements have arrived, hopefully without taking large losses. Remember, if you take out any of their labs, you disable RA until they rebuild them. That'll buy you lots of time to fix up your fleet and crush them.

1-3 are moot of the Vasari are not fast-teching, but in that case, you should be able to get your own superweapons online when they get RA going and I think those are fair, balanced matches.


Additionally.
given some of the vasari traits (like extremely expensive ships points wise) it might be worth reviewing the overall game balance after this change, as from what i've seen.. vasari can pretty much either get the gates and win, or fail to get the gates and lose badly.. as it stands now. They are just outnumbered and outgunned without the gates, so for now they pretty much rely on them.

Thats just how i see it.
End of quote


Clearly, you have never really tried not using RA. I used RA my first few games to try it out and was unbeaten, but found it fairly boring. I switched to another strategy (which also involves teching to RA, but much more slowly, and which I am not going to share here). I am also undefeated with that strategy. So I don't know what you've been smoking, but Vasari are plenty strong without a fast-tech. Many games having RA doesn't even matter- by the time I get it, I've already won.
Reply #30 from Sins Forums Top
vasari fleet cap is 2300
End of quote


Hmm, i guess someone forgot to pass that memo to my 2339 point fleet :P

Another stupid issue of the gates, they easily allow you to go 10-50 points above your pop cap, which might be significant in the early tech stages, when it would normally only be 600-800 or less.
Reply #31 from Sins Forums Top
Ok...i have read the entire discussion and it seens, to me, a little useless...if someone thinks that a race is so strong that you will probably lose against it then just play with that race if you want to win so much...
Reply #32 from Sins Forums Top
I think this whining is tiring to look at and as someone put it earlier 'Why point out the flaws of your pet race?'(he is referring to TEC)or something like that.
Reply #33 from Sins Forums Top
Additionally.
given some of the vasari traits (like extremely expensive ships points wise) it might be worth reviewing the overall game balance after this change, as from what i've seen.. vasari can pretty much either get the gates and win, or fail to get the gates and lose badly.. as it stands now. They are just outnumbered and outgunned without the gates, so for now they pretty much rely on them.
End of quote


Ehmm... if the Vasari manage to tech rush to advanced warships and get the requisite abilities/weapons/hulls/armor required for them, they nullify the high cost of their warships. They may be outnumbered, but not outgunned - sending in things like Skarovas-Lasurak combos while their opponents(and defending allies) are still playing the rock-paper-scissors game of LRM spam vs. Flak circle vs. Light frigate blob.

Then they can build a fleet with their new ship designs, expand a bit, and defend until they've headed down the Fleet Logistics & Phase Mastery routes and pick up all the Phase techs up to Level 7. This gives them the most fleet logistics(thanks to Phasic Transmissions) and the fastest fleets(Phase Stabilizers with Enhanced Tunneling), and then they can proceed to roll over enemy star systems one-by-one without touching Returning Armada. They may still want to build 8 Imperial Labs though, in order to unlock Highly Attuned Sensors - the ultimate PSIDAR technology.
Reply #34 from Sins Forums Top
Why do you people think that the scuttling of vasari dark fleet ships for money needs to be nerfed? LOL!

Come on, what is the prime reason for having money in the game? FOR SHIPS. Oh sure, money is needed for planetary infrastructure too, but why do you build planetary infrastructure in the first place? In the end, FOR SHIPS.

Why do you build up your economy? FOR SHIPS.

Sure, sure, I understand that research costs money too, but one researches to increase the power of SHIPS, and if a vasari scuttles ships to get money for research, he has just blown up SHIPS (nevermind that he does not get the full cost of the ships when he scuttles), and he is therefore going in the opposite direction of where he should be going, since the ultimate goal is SHIPS, not money.

What would you rather have, a vasari with money but no ships, or a vasari with ships but no money? Shouldn't this be a no-brainer question? So why complain when the vasari trades his ships for money and gives you what you'd rather have - a vasari with money but not ships?

The TEC gets to basically print money as a late game tech (and printing money is the same as printing ships). Nobody complains. So why complain about the vasari? If vasari scuttle ships to get money, why is that different than TEC just printing the money off their printing presses?

Those of you who are complaining about this stuff... are you sure you have thought this through carefully?
Reply #35 from Sins Forums Top
Why do you people think that the scuttling of vasari dark fleet ships for money needs to be nerfed? LOL!

Come on, what is the prime reason for having money in the game? FOR SHIPS. Oh sure, money is needed for planetary infrastructure too, but why do you build planetary infrastructure in the first place? In the end, FOR SHIPS.

Why do you build up your economy? FOR SHIPS.

Sure, sure, I understand that research costs money too, but one researches to increase the power of SHIPS, and if a vasari scuttles ships to get money for research, he has just blown up SHIPS (nevermind that he does not get the full cost of the ships when he scuttles), and he is therefore going in the opposite direction of where he should be going, since the ultimate goal is SHIPS, not money.

What would you rather have, a vasari with money but no ships, or a vasari with ships but no money? Shouldn't this be a no-brainer question? So why complain when the vasari trades his ships for money and gives you what you'd rather have - a vasari with money but not ships?

The TEC gets to basically print money as a late game tech (and printing money is the same as printing ships). Nobody complains. So why complain about the vasari? If vasari scuttle ships to get money, why is that different than TEC just printing the money off their printing presses?

Those of you who are complaining about this stuff... are you sure you have thought this through carefully?
End of quote

What he said. ;)

Reply #36 from Sins Forums Top
Although I doubt that the returning armada ability is OP in general, in the way you and your friends play LAN games, I definitely see how it could be abused. If everyone just goes around minding their own business, waiting for someone else to start something, it give you time to build a LOT of phase gates, and then get a lot of reinforcements very fast after each battle. However, in a regular game where there's more combat, returning armada is probably quite fair (can't say for sure though, since I've never been on the receiving end of it, or on the delivering end)
Reply #37 from Sins Forums Top
Hey, I one of the guys who plays on the LAN w/Lord Engelbert, and I play vassari, and fast tech to RA. Tbh I cant see how it is overpowered, I feel it's just we are using a topend ability before anyone else. The TEC basically get 6 ships auto-spawning in an enemies base every 5mins w/ the insurgency tech, but I havnt eer see it used against me.
I think we're going to have a game tonight or tomorrow morning, and try out some of the things people have mentioned. Since this all started two days ago, Ive since decided to go TEC- mainly because I hate being constantly broke.
Reply #38 from Sins Forums Top
The best balancing mechanism would likely be to increase the time between returning armada's.

However, can we let the game playout for a month before we change our minds 50 times about which race has an unfair advantage.... last week it was the TEC and their LRM's.
Reply #39 from Sins Forums Top
The best balancing mechanism would likely be to increase the time between returning armada's.
End of quote


Best balancing thing would be to leave it alone. I recently slaughtered someone and they claimed, in replay to allies, that it was because I was using bombers. I guess it had nothing to do with the fact they kept building lvl 1 capital ships nonstop, which die to bombers in 2 passes (Since I had about 50 bomber squadrons).

Reply #40 from Sins Forums Top
The best balancing mechanism would likely be to increase the time between returning armada's.Best balancing thing would be to leave it alone. I recently slaughtered someone and they claimed, in replay to allies, that it was because I was using bombers. I guess it had nothing to do with the fact they kept building lvl 1 capital ships nonstop, which die to bombers in 2 passes (Since I had about 50 bomber squadrons).
End of quote



Sounds like they knew what they were doing lol.
Reply #41 from Sins Forums Top
It would be such bs to ban the two things that could arguably be the reason why people play as the Vasari. A thing I have noticed about the factions is, the TEC are mainly Economy, but can have a pretty sizable fleet of moderate power at the same time. The Advent can culture whore all they want, but their ships dont die... well, not easily. The Vasari however, are a military faction. When you play Vasari, you are thinking about how to get as many ships as quickly as possible plus researching the Enforcer cruiser and unlocking Phase Stabilizers and the Dark Fleet. You arnt thinking about getting trade going ASAP, or trying to brainwash your foes, you thinking about the Military.
My point is this, the Vasari ARE military, the TEC and Advent can be Economy Military and Empire at the same time.
If your lame ass friends are whining about the Vasari being to gifted on the side of Military, tell them to A) Shove it B) Play as Vasari C) Grow a pair and build more ships you Economy spamming fagtard
Reply #42 from Sins Forums Top
I love this thread and I agree with the original poster.

Those techs and abilities make the Vasari unique, and are also counterable.

Now, please dont shout nerf, last time that happened both culture and pirates became what they are today.
Reply #43 from Sins Forums Top
The phase gates aren't a problem... but Returning Armada is something that I think of as a Super Weapon. It's not the free ships that bothers me, but rather the speed at which a player can acquire these ships... I'm a little irked by the fact that it provides ships that you have never researched.

I do play Vasari, and I do enjoy the Dark Fleet... but I wouldn't mind seeing some improvements to Vasari early game in place of a small adjustment to the Vasari late game. Of course, there are plenty of valid points for/against RA.

At the very least I would like to see the phase gates made cheaper, and the Dark Armada a little less powerful... and the ability to scuttle the returned ships disabled. If you reach the fleet cap, you might as well scuttle a bunch of ships and let more replace them later.
Reply #44 from Sins Forums Top
You realize you are alking about various high level techs and high level capitals to counter something merely costing 4 pop points and eaisly spammed from the beginning of the game, right?Sure once i get the tech up to speed, not much is a threat to the vasari, but early game they are ridiculously vulnerable, as they are outnumbered, and outgunned as i just said.1.5 times the number of ships you have, even if all of them are weaker than yours, they still have a lot more firepower / overall hp, not to mention the range difference.With proper microing you do have a fighting chance against them, if the enemy is not microing his fleet, but someone taking the LRM rush might very well do that.Sentinels are a basic Level 2 tech. The Phase Missiles and Charged Missiles are optional. Sentinels are 5 supply points while Illuminators are 6 supply points and Javelis LRMs are 4 supply points. What's more Javelis LRMs are also Level 2 tech and Illuminators are Level 3. The only thing is that Javelis ships are amazingly cheap zerglings while Sentinels are not. The Advent Illuminator, though, costs almost as much as the Sentinel when you factor in the metal and crystal costs.So Sentinels can outnumber AND outgun Illuminators and they can take down Javelis LRMs too once they enter firing range. They also provide a meatshield barrier at the same time, so carriers can hang back and launch their fighters to accelerate the progress made by the flaks.
End of quote

Do you even know what the purpose of the sentinel is? It's an anti-strike craft frig, not meant for combat with LRMs. Why would you be mass producing sentinels in the first place?

As to the argument about scuttling DA ships, I think the argument people are having is that you are able to return things you haven't paid for. Look at it like the vasari's late game economic boost. TEC have their pervasive economy, advent have outrageous tax income due to their culture spread (which they can use to buy other minerals off the black market), so actually wouldn't it only be fair to allow the vasari to get an economic boost their their strong point? Military.
Reply #45 from Sins Forums Top
Hiho

I think returning Armada needs a rework.
I played several time against it, and pretty much the only way to defeat it is destroying the Vasari before it gets completed.

I would like to discuss a replay from a game I just played, if you like.

WWW Link
(since the file is so small rapidshare shouldnt cause much trouble)

Its a 4ffa on the map Backstab. Its about 1h 20 mins long IIRC.

For any mistakes on my part I have the very good excuse that this was the first time I played Advent in MP so please keep that in mind. :P

The red Vasari and I start as neighbours and decide to work together (Of course I fully expect him to follow the name of the map and backstab me sooner or later, but I played mainly to get used to the Advent anyway. I also expected him to work with me at least until the other two players are no longer a serious threat.).

After a while green drops, and shortly thereafter orange. Red and I remain and I offer him to end the game without a winner or duke it out.
He wants to fight and in the end I lose to Returning Armada.

After 40 mins he has Returning Armada.
He teched straight to if for the entire game, with trade, culture and LRMs being the main techs he got which not directly lead to RA.
Soon after that he uses RA from 6 gates.

You can follow the fight from about 40 mins.

Noticeable things are:
- I take out two imperial labs at some point (before I start losing actually) which doesnt help a bit since RA continues even though he doenst fulfil the research prerequisites anymore.

- My culture overthrows his (I also destroyed one of his two media hubs at some point) which in the end of the game results in his income being much lower than mine.

- Watch his and my fleet grow after orange dropped. In the beginning we have about the same income.

- At the end of the game I lost my entire fleet, he has a huge one despite his economy in ruins.

I was of the opinion that RA is overpowered before that game. But this game convinced me there really is a problem.
I'm sure an early rush could have prevented at least the RA fast tech (he didnt have much of a fleet for quite some time, so either he would have lost or would have to spend considerable resources on non RA stuff).
I would like to know if someone thinks there really was a chance to defeat the Vasari player after orange drops.
All Advent specific mistakes I might have done aside I think I didnt play bad per se. I still dont see how I could have turned the tide from a somewhat equal starting position at 40 mins though.

In conclusion I think such a powerful ability needs more weaknesses than simply "fight before it happens" as you dont have the chance to do that in many games.

Zip version, for the three people not using winrar :p :
WWW Link
Reply #46 from Sins Forums Top
Just got here. Personally I don't believe it to be over powered at all but... well... What if in the next patch they put in an option to limit the number of the structures you could build? Or perhaps lower the advantage a little? I'm a noob at the game (just bought it a few days ago) but I think this could be common sense. Instead of banning entirely, just make limits. Sorry if I sound retarded or if this wouldn't work in any way. Like I said, I'm noob.
Reply #47 from Sins Forums Top
Saw the replay. While Advent do not have the best counter in civilian tech (TEC have a good counter), you did let him bee-line to it. You had no Support ships. Subjugators and guardians, along with powerful capital ship abilities would stop a larger force.

All it looks like is he went for RA right away with no one stopping him early on. He outplayed you pretty well :) And his expansion was uncanny.

Reply #48 from Sins Forums Top
I dont think any amount of support ships would have helped, considering that my fleet would have even less direct firepower then.

Also, I'm not saying he is a bad player who won just by using RA!
I'm saying that there is no way I could have beat him from 47 minutes on, because his fleet grew about three times as fast as mine from that point on without him having to spend a single credit for it.

Reply #49 from Sins Forums Top
How about this.. for all the races.. u got to research all techs in the specific catagory (military or civilian) before researching the superweapons. That way you will need more time and money to research all preceding techs. So people will can't rush to superweapons before they finish researching everything else to the fullest. That way people have to spend a whole lot of resources researching. It gives the other players more time to get an attack going.

It make since, because researching the superweapons is like ultimate research. It is where scientist have no other things to think of, because all the advance research ideas are done and think of before they can think of a superweapon.
Reply #50 from Sins Forums Top
I usually play Advent, and on Lan we always play medium maps, since it seems to be fair to all. But as to super weapons, spreading culture IS one of the Advent's best tactics; no SW = there goes the Advents core tactic. It seems also tilted as an Vasari player to say (huge map only, which lets me tech up and is best for MY race, and no SW, which is bad for YOUR race). Anyway, DA is always about perfect on a medum map for us, as well as SW which on a medium map are an ancheivement for anyone to get (so they deserve it in our opinion).