Annatar11 Annatar11

On forum etiquette, complaints, and suggestions

On forum etiquette, complaints, and suggestions

It's no secret that since the game's release the forums have been filled with more hostility, both towards Stardock/Ironclad and fellow posters, than probably any of us would like. Some of this is to be expected from the nature of internet forums, but it doesn't have to be the case - especially if everyone actually wants to be heard.

I've been around these forums for a long time. I've posted a lot, read a lot, and learned a lot - so I figured I could post what I've learned in hopes (though likely naive :P) that the forums can get more civil and cleaned up without the need for heavy moderation.

Firstly,

Etiquette/Complaints:

This applies mostly to posts/threads addressing "officials" from the two companies involved with the game. What many folks may not realize is that, really, these are not faceless companies that pay PR reps to filter the forums so they hear only what they want. These are companies whose "higher ups" and developers personally visit the forums and read/talk with the community.

But if the community wants to be treated with respect, and get answers to questions or comments, we should likewise treat Stardock/Ironclad with the same respect. Snide remarks, sarcasm, outright hostility towards the developers and forum moderators won't get us anything other than their unwillingness to participate in community discussions any longer.

We have to realize that not that many people have been directly involved in the game's creation. Just take a look at the credits - Ironclad is a very small independent company, and only a part of Stardock was involved in the game's design. There are no PR reps, we're talking directly with the people who've sunk years into making this game. They don't *have* to visit the forums and talk to us, but they want to and it's something we should be able to feel good about because it just doesn't happen with most other companies. But if all they see is "whining" about the same thing over and over, if they see hostility towards them or people deliberatly posting lies or demands, can we really expect them to continue to interact with us?

Of course, as customers we all want to be heard, especially when we have complaints. But questioning Ironclad's honesty, hard work, or posting things like "This sucks" or "This is broken" hurts much more than it helps and instead of being heard it ends up being ignored. Remember that these are just normal people like all of us, and I doubt that if you worked on a product for years you'd get much enjoyment from reading a swarm of "This sucks" threads every day - most of them about the same thing.

So then, how do we make ourselves heard and voice our complaints such that the powers that be aren't instantly turned off? This leads into the next topic:

Suggestions:

Usually, when folks have a complaint because they don't like how something works, and if it's a valid complaint, they should also have some idea of how they'd like it work, right?

Let's take everyone's favorite topic of AI, for example. We get to read posts which can be simply summarized as "1.03 AI sucks more than 1.02", without containing any other real substance. But how does this help anyone? All it is is just trashing, it doesn't accomplish anything productive.

Instead of posting "This sucks", why not instead post your idea of how you'd like it to be? We did this all the time in beta, and I still do it, especially when it comes to AI. "AI is a coward and runs too much" doesn't tell Ironclad much to work it as far as improvements. But on the other hand, if you post a replay, and describe it as "Well, at this time you can clearly see that the AI fleet is more superior to mine, and should be able to defeat me but instead it runs away. I think the AI should account for external variables less when it has numeric superiority so it stays and finishes the job more often" is infinitely more useful because now Ironclad has something to work with. They can look at the replay, and understand why you're suggesting what you are.

The same goes for everything else - the market, siege frigates, long range frigates, whatever. Take your pick. If instead of posting simply that they're "broken" or the patch sucks, or the numerous other uninformative posts that we've all seen, everyone instead posted ideas and rationalle for how to improve them, it would not only help Ironclad understand the community, but make them happier to work with us and help them tailor future updates based on our feedback.

 

In conclusion, again, try to understand that these forums allow for something that most do not - the direct interaction with developers. All of us have inner nerds that cry out in joy when we see a dev post in our threads and address our comments, ideas, or concerns. But in order for them to do that, all we need to do is cut out the hostility, sarcasm, and insults and focus on unbiased suggestions. Bashing a game mechanic or change doesn't create anything productive and adds no value to a post. But posting a rational suggestion to modify the mechanic will do wonders for everyone.

47,373 views 50 replies
Reply #26 Top
A suggestion to help you gals and guys and Star Dock with moderating is to perhaps appoint some of the community members that have established themselves as mature and level headed people to act as co-moderators of the forums. This would lessen your work load and let you focus more on reading/replying to threads of interest and less on babysitting the forums.
End of quote


We've already got people to do that (me...). The main issue is one of policy. Traditionally we've been as hands-off as possible, and that's worked pretty well on GC2, etc. But with the general atmosphere over here of late, if we're going to move that line of what's accepted and what's not as per Blair, I need to know exactly where it's moved to. It's really not a question of time, which I have in excess as often as not :p
Reply #27 Top
I disagree, Annatar11 & the_Monk (with your #24 & #25 replies).

Some posts are sooooo obviously published to be petty & nasty that they warrant a deletion or editing by a Moderator.

(I have composed a few of those myself, and my intent was clearly to ram into another forum user. But I did pick my targets : I never attacked Ironclad & Stardock. I focused on a few conceited, arrogant, self-glorified ICO warriors who have displayed, on the forum, a petty contempt for non-expert players of SINS. If a Moderator had deleted those posts of mine, I would have accepted the stricture ... without crying foul.)

I believe this whole SINS forum needs some strong measure of cleaning-up.

If you don't want to do that job, Annatar11, well ...

I hope that Ironclad will find an enforcer who will have the « guts » and the mature skill to execute deletions, locks, warnings, and ... bans.


P.S. (after having read reply #26) > Sorry, kryo, no disrespect intended. Your post informs us that you are limited by « policy », which is a sound business practice.





Reply #28 Top
My post wasn't meant to say that the forums are fine unmoderated, but that they don't need *additional* moderators :) Like kryo said, Stardock has traditionally been hands-off, and this situation is different from GalCiv forums so they are adapting. Kryo is a full time moderator and he does a great job at it(even though you don't see him posting a ton, he finds pretty much everything) - so I don't think the forums are in need of a second ;)
Reply #29 Top
I certainly agree that having additional outside moderation can be risking entry level powermongers damaging the reps of the heads. If, and I emphasize if it comes to the point where outside moderation is needed, those outside moderators need limitation. Post locking and deletion w/ justification, maintaining order, giving warnings, again w/ justification, and referals to higher powers. That's IT. And only in certain public boards like the Off topic boards, Strat boards, Mod boards and such. Keep them out of the announcement boards and things that are really just for Stardock/Ironclad use, and don't allow banning or key/account locking. Those higher powers remain in the insider's hands. And, of course, the power to remove over zealous or abusive outside moderators should remain hanging like a Sword of Damocles over their heads. That should keep any risky situations from arising.

Again, I emphasize the if. It's entirely up to the bosses if they ever need support while they cover the important stuff. And personally, in spite of what I said (I was joking about ambitions. I wouldn't mind, but I'm not concerned about it. I'd just be concerned about doing the job if ever given), I hope it never comes to needing to outsource moderation. Outsourcing is usually a good sign that things are going to pot. Having studied Human Resources, I've come to learn that if businesses have to resort to applying dangerous, uncontrolled, and/or unguided equations, it means dire circumstances have risen, and I don't want Ironclad to see that happen. It would mean no more SoaSE and it's ilk.
Reply #30 Top
I personally think if they just wait it out a bit things will return to a state of normalcy. The game is getting such high praise now that the forums are probably seeing an unusually high amount of traffic as people buy, buy, buy. I suspect in another month or two that the interest will naturally wane as people move to other games, and then only the people who are pretty hardcore will remain. Again.

Of course if the game just continues to burn hot, then it could be a long ride...

-HM
Reply #31 Top
Hollow Man
I personally think if they just wait it out a bit things will return to a state of normalcy. The game is getting such high praise now that the forums are probably seeing an unusually high amount of traffic as people buy, buy, buy. I suspect in another month or two that the interest will naturally wane as people move to other games, and then only the people who are pretty hardcore will remain. Again.Of course if the game just continues to burn hot, then it could be a long ride...-HM
End of quote
I agree with this. At first things were civil and calm since people who really were interested in this kind of game and genre were the only ones playing. Now there's a huge variety of gamers and age groups playing this game so that causes things to change up quite a bit. On top of that, people who ordinarily wouldn't be able to play are now joining in. I'm talking about people who don't typically use their computers for gaming and do other things with said computers.

Personally, I really enjoy this game and play it a lot. I started modeling some ships but I don't know if I'll put them into a Sins mod or do something else with them. I've been laying low because things lately have been overly-negative and very hostile. However, this is a problem with the internet and society in general. You should see how much fun it is trying to explain to someone how to properly care for a tiger and domesticate it safely (fun fact: humans have more in common with tigers, genetically, than what they do with chimps). I might as well be banging my head against a brick wall. The same can be said about a lot of the topics popping up here when it comes to strategies, what constitutes a good multiplayer game, and balance adjustments. When GTA IV comes out I think we'll see a decline in the negativity and things will calm down.

I do think it's critical for Stardock/Ironclad to stay as hands off as possible except where warranted. There's been a lot of over the top threads and I like the mixture of official commenting and locking that's been going on so far. It's very difficult to balance control of a forum with how people perceive what you're doing. Too much moderation and people go crazy and spew things like oppression and nazi name calling. To little and people walk all over you. It's a hard line to walk and I do not think community volunteers are a good idea. As a former admin of a very large art community and dragon-oriented forum network, I say from experience that running places like these can get stressful, addicting, wear you out, and cause you to eventually do something stupid if everyone is not on the same page. When you're all sitting in a studio or office together you can make better judgments than people scattered around the globe.
Reply #32 Top
personally i think any "crack down" would only have to be temporary just to get the message across, then just draw your line in you sand (1 sticky post with uber basic rules more just as a reminder to people everytime they log in the forums) and i think everyone will behave, with no fear of changing your guys stance or beliefs. I dont think you guys have to moderate the forums more/differently, but just give us a kick in the pants and we will sit up straight. :)
Reply #33 Top

There are times I’m tempted to go digging into my old bag of tricks and put together some kind of Bayesian classification system to pre-sort postings to web forums into “worthwhile” or “not” groups for me (which is one of the reasons I really prefer email as a technology for such environs since I have controll over the environment and can do such things near-trivially, but I digress).

Community management is a hard problem. It’s never been done and done well in a semi-open forum, not because of any failure on the part of bright-eyed administrators but because people, by and large, are wastes of perfectly good phytoplasm. An essential fact of the environment, unfortunately, and short of draconian restrictions the best you can hope for is a decent community once you start exceeding about 3,000 members. (In my more cynical moments, I actually scale that back by two magnitudes but I’m feeling generous tonight.) Aiming for a place where opinions get aired, consolidated, and the discussion focused is the best you can hope for as a user and an administrator and I applaud the Ironclad folks for recognizing that.

It wasn’t for nothing that one of my questions to Craig and Blair on BSU was “How do you keep from killing 80% of the forum posters?” It’s hard enough to read them on an ongoing basis; I shudder to imagine what it’s like in the offices on a bad morale day, which everyone and every group has on occasion.

Bravo, ladies and gentlemen, bravo. Fortitude.


Reply #34 Top
Egosoft use a small number of trusted fans and contributors as sub-forum admins, what they tend to do is just dump abusive posts off-topic rather than deleting them, people soon learn to calm down cos no one can be bothered reading the rubbish.
Reply #35 Top
Which is why I don't think these forums are ready (or really in need) of additional moderators just for the sake of enforcing rules. Nobody needs to be a moderator (volunteer or not) to take the time to answer people's questions or try to help them. The additional ability to lock/delete posts isn't necessary to be actively helping the community and I really hope these forums don't degenerate into the need to have additional "rules enforcing" mods.


Here here!
Reply #36 Top
Which is why I don't think these forums are ready (or really in need) of additional moderators just for the sake of enforcing rules. Nobody needs to be a moderator (volunteer or not) to take the time to answer people's questions or try to help them. The additional ability to lock/delete posts isn't necessary to be actively helping the community and I really hope these forums don't degenerate into the need to have additional "rules enforcing" mods.   Amen!
End of quote


Here, here!
Reply #37 Top
I don't want to deviate from the current topic of moderators, but I would like to post a quick thanks to Annatar for such a well-constructed post. I post a bit and lurk a whole lot more. Over the past, oh, ten days or so the general attitude on the forums has been so hostile and sniping. I've posted less and have even visited less. I have also noticed (wrongly perhaps) that the later the hour (I'm in EDT) the more angry the posts become. So I don't even check the forums at night.

I commend Blair, kyro, and the whole gang for the patience they have exhibited thus far. While this forum isn't as flamey or caustic as, say, Fark.com it is certainly more hostile than I prefer. Some of it is in good fun but some is downright nasty. Personally, I'm really tired of people posting just to trash the game because it isn't what they expected, didn't live up to some review, or because tech support didn't reply in a timely manner.

As I was absent from the forums yesterday and the day before I didn't witness what was going on (the crux, as Blair put it). I assume that all of this hostility was coming to a boil. I don't care to go back and find out but I am hopeful of the prospect of more a more civil forum. I also am looking forward to seeing fewer flames and more game-related topics in the Recent Posts section on the home page.

Thanks to everyone who keeps their cool, especially all you IC and SD peeps.
Reply #38 Top
Great OP, great thread, great game. Thanks to all, especially Stardock / Ironclad.

Reply #39 Top
Reply #34 :

Egosoft use a small number of trusted fans and contributors as sub-forum admins,

what they tend to do is just dump abusive posts off-topic rather than deleting them,

people soon learn to calm down cos no one can be bothered reading the rubbish.
End of quote


That's an interesting solution !

Less harsh than my hard Hobbesian approach.

Reply #40 Top
The problem with that, though, is all the junk would still show up in the "Recent Posts" section :(

A lot of it is also not separate threads, but threads that started out as valid/useful and got badly derailed.
Reply #41 Top
THANKS Annatar11

you are the first one that took the time to post this
and i TOTTALY agree...


reason:?
i got 2 reasons to go online at the sins forums

1. check for new updates..... patches and latest intel on all sorts of mods. etc.etc.etc.

2. i try to "bust" the people who whine and give em my opinion on how hard it is 2 make a fully balanced game without people being unsatisfied about what they bought (u might atleast search some more intel over sins b4 actualy buying it.. like i do ;) )



tough there is part of me that sticks with Sorceresss....

namely... the warnings and bans
people think becuase they are not personally across another person they can say whatever they want (without consequences) ... welll there ARE consequences and there musnt be doubt to ban people who think this way....
Reply #42 Top
Another idea that would be helpful is to enable a "report this post" option so registered users can flag spam and deliberately inflamatory posts for moderation before they get out of hand.
Reply #43 Top
Here's a question: How much help is it for all of these myriad threads popping up that do nothing but offer vague, general praise of SD and Sins? Doesn't that also add to the singal-to-noise ratio?
End of quote


Ah, but compliments are signal -- insults you ignore as noise, but compliments just make you feel good and work better! :P

That said, how is this not a sticky?
Reply #44 Top
Reply #42, by Silveressa :

Another idea that would be helpful is to enable a "report this post" option so registered users can flag spam and deliberately inflamatory posts for moderation before they get out of hand.
End of quote


Well ... this forum did have that « report this post » feature, for many months.

When they did a major forum overhaul, in February, they removed it ... possibly because it caused too many reports to read & evaluate -- not always appropriate reports.

The Moderators risk getting flooded by trivial & frivolous reports -- or nasty spams.

Reply #45 Top
From reply #41 :

tough there is part of me that sticks with Sorceresss
End of quote


You wouldn't say that, Shadow of Light, if you had read a recent, harsh criticism of one of your own posts -- on another thread.
Reply #46 Top
This may come off as asinine, and I came up with the idea at first sarcastically, but why couldn't we setup a section for belly-aching or whining and just not include those posts in the Recent Posts section? The haters and ranters can congregate there and keep their whining to themselves. The occasional stalwart could even go in there from time to time when they feel like pointing out the positive (which inevitably, I guess, would be like picking a fight).

Then again, that wouldn't keep the hostility and nonsense from spilling over to other posts...
Reply #47 Top
Another idea that would be helpful is to enable a "report this post" option so registered users can flag spam and deliberately inflamatory posts for moderation before they get out of hand.
End of quote


I second this motion!


Here's a question: How much help is it for all of these myriad threads popping up that do nothing but offer vague, general praise of SD and Sins? Doesn't that also add to the singal-to-noise ratio?Ah, but compliments are signal -- insults you ignore as noise, but compliments just make you feel good and work better! That said, how is this not a sticky?
End of quote


I also second the sticky motion!

In the words of chris rock "Women need food, water, and compliments" think of the devs in the same manner, but more manly(edit: at leats for most of them I think), with computers attached. :P
Reply #48 Top
this forum did have that « report this post » feature, for many months.When they did a major forum overhaul, in February, they removed it ... possibly because it caused too many reports to read & evaluate -- not always appropriate reports. The Moderators risk getting flooded by trivial & frivolous reports -- or nasty spams.
End of quote


Ah, the easiest solution around that is to warn/ban people that are abusing the system and flagging posts under false pretenses. (Something I assumed places that had the option enabed already did, after all the ones deliberately abusing the report system are likely to be the ones causing the spam/flaming posts in the first place)

Maybe just enabling the report function for selected (I.E mature, level headed) members of the forums would help things out. (then they could flag posts that might otherwise escape a moderators attention making things run more smoothly in general) This would also prevent the worry of volunteer moderators over stepping their boundries since they'd be just bringing the stuff that's getting out of hand to the attention of the current mods and not taking any direct action themsevles.
Reply #49 Top
I believe Zoomba or kryo mentioned a while back that the reporting feature is being worked on :P
Reply #50 Top
Is there a way to rate the posters from a positive to a negative by the registered members? Is this the report function?

We each start with a positive rating and when we go negative we lose the privilege to post for a period of time. We need to be held accountable for our actions and our words.
The age or maturity of some of the posters is an issue. I am tired of the name calling and personal attacks and demeaning attitudes some show for others.

It is after all a game.