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Sins 1.04 preview

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Sins 1.04 preview

from Sins Forums

As some of you know, 1.04 has been split into two updates in order to get an update out sooner that has taken recent feedback from players and evaluated what changes should be made.

Here is a preview of what we have:

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Sins of a Solar Empire v1.04 Changelist
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Gameplay / Balance:
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-Market value changes:
 -Ratio of buy/sell is now 2:1 instead of 3:1.
 -Min price now 200 instead of 80.
 -Boom/crashes now last ~twice as long.

-Multiple instances of the Embargo planet debuff from the same player no longer stack.

- Capital ships
 -All non-Colony capital ship top speeds increased from 500 to 525.
 -All Colony capital ship top speeds increased from 400 to 475.

- Siege Frigates:
 -Build costs decreased by ~15%.

- Javelis, Illuminator, Assailant:
 -Linear acceleration decreased from 200 to 150.
 -Top speed decreased from 800 to 500.
 -Range decreased from 130% to 115% of 1.02 ranges.

- Illuminator:
 -Hull points increased from 520 to 620.
 -Shield points increased from 450 to 550.
 -Attack type changed from CAPITALSHIP to ANTIMEDIUM.
 -Front bank damage increased from 33.8 to 65.
 -Side banks damage decreased from 33.8 to 26.

- Defense Vessel:
 -Reduced cooldown by 45%, damage reduced proportionally to maintain DPS.
 -Fleet supply increased from 3 to 4.
 -Now properly benefits from Advent laser research topics.

-Attack types
 -AntiVeryLight chance to hit bombers decreased from 85% to 75%.
 -AntiVeryLight damage vs Light armor decreased from 100% to 75%.

-Map Balance of Power fixed to have less Heavies and populated desert worlds.


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Graphics:
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Sound / Music:
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AI:
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-Fixed minor bug in Unfair AI not behaving quite correctly.
-Fix bug where AI would retreat from his homeworld or last planet.
-AI is likely to gang up on the leading player in Easy or Normal.
-Misc tweaks.


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Networking / Multiplayer:
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-Fixed minor bug in ico-join game screen where fleet size display was incorrect.
-Improved in-game chat text entry:
 -Escape no longer clears the chat buffer when closing the window.
 -Sending whispers is remembered (don't have to retype the whisper when sending again).
 -Sending to allies is remembered (don't have to retype /a when sending again).
-Chat string and colors changed.


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UserInterface / HUD:
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-Fix map names for Backstab and Balance of power.


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Modding:
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-Entity name lookup is now case insensitve.


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Misc:
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-Fix for saved games not respecting custom game options.


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End
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Now, bear in mind, this isn't the end-all be all update. The goal is to get something out, possibly this week and then do more later.

For single player games, the main change is in the computer AI not being quite so nasty at easy levels but being tougher at harder levels.

Most of the rest will affect multiplayer where unit balance between the 3 races is more sensitive.

199,937 views 222 replies
Reply #101 from Sins Forums Top
Not to make generalizations, but save for a few this is one of the most whiney, ungrateful, dissatisfied group of people it's been my misfortune to encounter.
End of quote


Well fought, sirrah!

Your claims lose their credibility when you sound like a hillbilly troglodyte.
End of quote


Point! - Match to D-Man777!

Haha, an amusing post.


On a separate note, I think Styr's suggestion of giving LRM's a minimum range is one worth considering. Although, curiously, you would be unable to give that same disadvantage to Illuminators - a beam of light needs no room accelerate or arm itself, and there is no danger of being caught in the blast radius of your own weapon. I, and I believe others, would enjoy yet another layer of complexity to the battle strategies in this game. Thank you, Styr!

And one further note... is it just me, or does anyone else think that when large vessels (crusiers, heavy cruisers, capital ships) and structures explode, anything within a certain range of the explosion should suffer damage? Just two nights ago, a Revelation Class Battlecruiser was destroyed by my victorious Vasari armada - right in the midst of my Enforcer Heavy Cruisers.

When you kill a capital ship, they continue moving in the last direction they had traveled in for a short distance, become immolated, and then detonate in a massive explosion a short distance from where they received the deathblow. In this particular case, that short distance carried the ship right into the midst of an important part of my fleet, and the fireball fully covered atleast 5 of my heavy cruisers!

I for one would appreciate it if explosions as magnificent as that actually damaged things - heavily! After all, these are anti-matter reactors, and probably an assortment of back up fusion generators and what have you - all going critical at once! I could imagine that the death-cries of several thousand telepaths could temporarily incapacitate or confuse a nearby vessel as well, lol! It's nothing too important, but perhaps in a future patch some time well down the line? I think it would add another good layer to an already excellent game!
Reply #102 from Stardock Forums Top
I'm not going to clutter up this thread with a bunch of mathematical analysis, which I already pointed out to innociv and he's conveniently ignoring. (1)

Finally, the illuminator buff (yes BUFF) is much needed and appreciated. (2)

The biggest gameplay change will be that LRM type ships cannot "move attack" the capital ships in a manner guarenteeing their death. (3)
End of quote


(1) I (personally, anyway) agree with your points, but I think innociv's concerns are valid. However, I mainly chimed in here to say that, no matter what anyone's opinion of the preview patch notes is, we all have to really wait and see since a lot of the changes will have subtle effects that escape first glances.

(2) This is a huge change, Illums are now as effective (during the WHOLE game [though I think innociv has a really good point about the cost]) as the other LRM's. I did (thematically?) like the unique nature of the Illums, but it's better if they're more in line with the other LRMs. You are definitely NOT wrong here, this is a mega Illum buff.

(3) This is the first thing I thought of when I saw they changed the speed of caps. This could be a really significant fix...

I'll be very excited to see this patch. I don't think it addresses everything (I think this is innociv's biggest concern), but it seems like a very big step in the right direction.

The Political Machine 2024
Reply #103 from Sins Forums Top
I have a suggestion that isn't related to balance:

Make maps auto-uploadable. That is, if i make a map in galaxy forge, i want to be able to host a match with that map without having to force everyone to pick it up online.

Without this feature, i realized, the map editor is pretty useless for people who play exclusively online.
Reply #104 from Sins Forums Top
I want a timer option that will end multiplayer games at a set time.
End of quote


none cares. Learn to beat people within the time you want.
Reply #105 from Sins Forums Top
I have a suggestion that isn't related to balance:Make maps auto-uploadable. That is, if i make a map in galaxy forge, i want to be able to host a match with that map without having to force everyone to pick it up online.Without this feature, i realized, the map editor is pretty useless for people who play exclusively online.
End of quote


There was a dev post that I remember recently where they said that they wanted to make sharing maps easier. That would pretty much cover that.
Reply #106 from Sins Forums Top
I wanted in game time elapsed timer like in the replays! It will help you strategize, and it will let you know if you have fallen behind in your build orders.
Reply #107 from Sins Forums Top
If the minidump is not fixed, the patches are not going to help the game at all. The mini-dump is what is making the game crash after playing for hours and hours.
Reply #108 from Sins Forums Top
-Now properly benefits from Advent laser research topics.


I'm still trying to figure out what this means? Has the defense vessel not been working? I got my butt kicked the other day on line with a friend, and I built quite a few defense early and hoped I would somehow get out my crusaders/subjugators, and they were dying fast, was this the reason? I don't think I ever noticed this...perhaps the more experienced players could help me out?
Reply #109 from Sins Forums Top
Now properly benefits from Advent laser research topics.


I'm still trying to figure out what this means? Has the defense vessel not been working? I got my butt kicked the other day on line with a friend, and I built quite a few defense early and hoped I would somehow get out my crusaders/subjugators, and they were dying fast, was this the reason? I don't think I ever noticed this...perhaps the more experienced players could help me out?
End of quote


Defense vessels work great...unless you are fighting the wrong thing. They are an "anti strikecraft" frigate, good against fighters, bombers, and long range frigates (for the moment). Basic assault frigates like Cobalts and Disciples kill them.
Reply #110 from Sins Forums Top
1) Flaks are so effective against strikecraft because unlike every other counter, they don't kill the damage dealer, they just counter it's ability to do damage. Hence, economically, the carrier wielding player is still at the same spot he was in before his strikecraft got iced. Two flak frigates is equal to the supply cost of one carrier, and therefore should be able to neutralize the damage output of a carrier in fairly short order.

2) Beefing the survivability of bombers will not help this game at all, because the problem with bombers is that they have an insanely low DpS/supply cost ratio, and a really poor damage type, which is why they suck, and currently nobody should build them ever. Please, devs, if you want people to use strikecraft more often, make bombers viable damage dealers, not viable flak sponges. Currently the only real use for bombers is to nuke orbital structures. But orbital structures are tremendously non-threatening as is, and can be eliminated at leisure by a wide variety of methods. Beefing Bomber DpS further marginalizes the currently underwhelming orbital defensive structures, and I understand that this is probably the source of your hesitation to do so. But I really think that orbital structures have needed a little beefing for some time now anyway. Perhaps you could make the repair platforms HoT effect stack, and then increase the tactical slot requirement for aforementioned structure to something more appropriate? Or give turrets/hangar bays shields... Beefing defensive structures marginalizes pirate raids, but this seems simple enough to fix... Give the pirates bombers! It would really be much more fitting for pirates to use strike-craft anyway, and it would further increase the use of hangar bays as a necessary component of planetary defense. Plus it would give the rather dull pirate encounters much needed flavor.

3) Giving higher tier pirate raids some more units would be so very neat. Not like, larger fleet size, but like different types of units. Strikecraft carriers would be cool. Maybe LRM type units. Just stuff to spice them up a little. I really like pirates. They are a super neat idea and they add so much to the game. But currently they feel less like a group of mercenary raiders and more like a herd of kamikaze lemmings. Making them dramatically more dangerous would change the game in all kinds of ways, and so I don't really want to see them beefed overall. But I would like to see them die with style.
Reply #111 from Sins Forums Top


Bomber improvements are so that they're effective in fleet engagements against the Flak/HC horde. More damage dealing won't help if they're shot down in seconds by like 8 flaks.

The most important aspect of the patch is the rebalance of the black market values- it just might allow the Vasari and Advent to autofail against TEC Tradeport strats. As for LRMs, they're falling behind status quo from 1.02, so that's good.

Honestly, I would just suggest reducing the speed of LRM ships themselves. Even if they can't pop a capital ship, they can still demolish orbital structures while practically ignoring retaliation until their mission is done. Making them slower would keep them useful in an artillery role for bringing heavy fire power to bear, but easier to counter with fighter/carriers by playing keep away. (Then again, PJIs can exact a heavy toll as well now.)

As a note, do PJIs still stack?
Reply #112 from Sins Forums Top
Now properly benefits from Advent laser research topics.I'm still trying to figure out what this means? Has the defense vessel not been working? I got my butt kicked the other day on line with a friend, and I built quite a few defense early and hoped I would somehow get out my crusaders/subjugators, and they were dying fast, was this the reason? I don't think I ever noticed this...perhaps the more experienced players could help me out?Defense vessels work great...unless you are fighting the wrong thing. They are an "anti strikecraft" frigate, good against fighters, bombers, and long range frigates (for the moment). Basic assault frigates like Cobalts and Disciples kill them.
End of quote


Right, I was hoping for a bit of a mathematical explanation as to if they could fight off lrm spam, since I didn't know if their laser buff was not working before like it was supposed to- but I guess the issue is dead even with 1.03, since lrms are still the only legit counter to lrms. I'm still also perplexed with what good evading/longer lasting caps will result in? For circling around them and running into a bunch of other caps/heavy cruisers that kill them?(I say this facetiously of course).
Reply #113 from Sins Forums Top
Right, I was hoping for a bit of a mathematical explanation as to if they could fight off lrm spam, since I didn't know if their laser buff was not working before like it was supposed to- but I guess the issue is dead even with 1.03, since lrms are still the only legit counter to lrms. I'm still also perplexed with what good evading/longer lasting caps will result in? For circling around them and running into a bunch of other caps/heavy cruisers that kill them?(I say this facetiously of course).
End of quote


Currently, Defense Vessels CAN fight LRM spam very effectively. This will be reduced in 1.04 as they will do %25 less damage vs LRM.

The cap ship speed increase will help them get away a little easier, combined with the reduction in LRM / Assailant / Illuminator speed from 800 to 500. I think the issue they were trying to address was how easy it was to chase down fleeing cap ships with long range frigates.
Reply #114 from Sins Forums Top
In my opinion, the siege frigate should be completely replaced with another type of support or combat vessel. If you want to nuke someone's planet you should have to take capital ships. Of course I'm sure it's faaar too late for this to ever happen, just one of those things I would like to have seen.
Reply #115 from Sins Forums Top
If the minidump is not fixed, the patches are not going to help the game at all. The mini-dump is what is making the game crash after playing for hours and hours.
End of quote


The mini-dump IS the crash.
Reply #116 from Sins Forums Top
From Grand Master [MAGOG]Kruelgor (reply #100) :

I'm actually salivating that the Illuminator is getting an increase in weapon and shield strength. I've been winning a lot of games lately with Illuminator spamming and this is going to help even more.
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I recall that you recently stated, on another thread, that those wins were against newbies ... my point being that I wonder if you would have any success with your illuminating spamming against competent ICO players (such as HuntingX).

I recall watching that replay concerning Disciples spamming...



Reply #117 from Sins Forums Top
2) Beefing the survivability of bombers will not help this game at all, because the problem with bombers is that they have an insanely low DpS/supply cost ratio, and a really poor damage type, which is why they suck, and currently nobody should build them ever. Please, devs, if you want people to use strikecraft more often, make bombers viable damage dealers, not viable flak sponges. Currently the only real use for bombers is to nuke orbital structures.
End of quote


Don't forget that the carrier units like the drone host are awful, even with slower LRM's I think that the carriers will require insane micro to stay out of range. It is easy to cut them off in the small combat area around planets. Once cut off they are killed very fast. And the light frig will be able to still chase them down and kill them off in mass. Compounding the problems with the DPS of strikecraft for the cost is that their host are terrible.



Reply #118 from Sins Forums Top
I recall that you recently stated, on another thread, that those wins were against newbies ... my point being that I wonder if you would have any success with your illuminating spamming against competent ICO players (such as HuntingX).

I recall watching that replay concerning Disciples spamming...
End of quote


Illuminator spam doesn't work terribly well against experienced players for several reasons.

1 - they can't really focus fire, which is the best way to reduce the enemy fleet's dps and kill high priority targets quickly. Illums are useful when combined with malice + cleansing brilliance, but every race has at least one ability that can shut that combo down.
2 - they are quite weak for their cost so in a battle of attrition, you'd lose out to a player spamming the more cost efficient LRMs, especially when they get AOE damage.
3 - they're tech lvl 3 so they can't be mass produced as early as LRMs.

That's not to say they're a completely bad unit. They're pretty good when they get their illusion ability and you combine them with guardians. By driving your illums and guardian into the center of their fleet then hitting the repulse ability, you spread their fleet out so that often all three of the illums guns can fire. However, it's a risky all-or-nothing move because it's difficult to save your fleet if things get out of hand.

In general, spamming solely one unit against experienced players is a quick way to lose.
Reply #119 from Sins Forums Top
Don't forget that the carrier units like the drone host are awful, even with slower LRM's I think that the carriers will require insane micro to stay out of range. It is easy to cut them off in the small combat area around planets. Once cut off they are killed very fast. And the light frig will be able to still chase them down and kill them off in mass. Compounding the problems with the DPS of strikecraft for the cost is that their host are terrible.
End of quote


I think that the host is supposed to be fragile and easily slay-able by light frigates, as light frigates are the counter to heavy armor, and fast. It would be odd if the devs made carriers out of heavy armor, and then did not intend for them to be slain relatively easily by the only unit role in the game that uses 'anti-heavy' as a damage type. I think it is currently more than doable to 'kite' LRM frigates with fighter endowed carrier cruisers. I don't see this getting harder with the speed of LRM frigates getting nearly halved.

Also, consider this: Prior popular game wisdom was: Flak counter LRMs, LRMs counter Light Frigates, Light Frigates counter Flak, strikecraft get ignored. Now it will be more like: Fighters counter LRMs, Flak protect LRMs, Light Frigates counter Carriers, also Flak, LRMs counter Light Frigates. These changes will increase the use of carrier cruisers, which will conversely increase the need to carry around more light frigates. This is going to make the early game much more interesting.

On a similar note, bombers currently die quickly against flak because they are supposed to, because flak is the counter to strikecraft. Assuming that bombers did live longer against flak, they would still suck, because even at maximum squadron capacity, they deal really poor DpS to more or less everything. Perhaps they could use a survivability increase too, but I'd say focus on making them able to perform their role decently without counters in place before you tweak how they interact with those counters. Stated more simply, if bombers suck while they are alive, who cares how quickly they die?
Reply #120 from Sins Forums Top
BRB Antorak.

Anyways when you're saying Illum is being BUFFED the big problem is that you're comparing it to the 1.03 illum, not the 1.02 one.

FOR AN INCREASE OF 10% credits, 15% metal, and %40 crystal cost to Illums over 1.02 Illums now have:
15% more damage(almost 1/3rd that crystal increase, almost half that metal increase.)
Less than 10% increase in survivibility(REMEMBER, 1.03 nerfed it's survivability! YEah a 200 increase seems like a lot compared to the crappy 1.03 numbers that where changed for no reason! But compared it to 1.02's where illums were the worst lrm yet got nerfed the hardest.)
15% more rang(not much of a biggy)

Yeah, these "buffs" don't justify it's cost increase at ALL. The only good thing is that it's front beam does more damage. But why did these other changes have to go along with front beam doing more damage? Why not 1.02 Illum with front beam doing 70% of it's damage? Why, why, why? Because it's easier to make all the ships carbon copies with slight differences?

And it's gotten AntiMedium, so it does more damage to other lrms and light frigs.
It's not like the damage types can't be changed.

Would it kill game balance if capital ships did 25% more damage to light and medium armor? I sure don't think so. CAPITAL damage could of just gotten a buffy vs LIGHT and MEDIUM.
So that would bring illums damage to 100% vs. light(lrms armor type which they do 100% to, cap does 75% currently) and 125% to medium(antimedium is 150%). I don't see how that would imbalance caps any, and illums could of kept CAPITAL damage.



And if you think the 25% nerf in damage of flaks vs. lrms is going to make fighters better. You couldn't be more wrong.
It just means people will build 25% MORE flaks. DUH.

See against carriers you only have to build a FEW flaks. About 1 flak per 7 or 8 carriers(and the flaks cost less than half as much resources. Closer to 1/3rd)
Against LRMS, you need to make 1 flak per 3 now or so, at about the same cost each.

I swear. -_- You don't think.
Reply #121 from Sins Forums Top
none cares. Learn to beat people within the time you want.
End of quote


I appreciate how you like to pretend to represent everyone, but actually you're wrong.

I've spoken with lots of people (right here in this forum) that have mentioned they would like to have a TIMER option for multiplayer games.

Besides, if you don't like the idea of a timer then you can choose to host or join a game with no timer. Freedom of choice is a beautiful thing, unless you're a thug/dictator type which I think you might be since you like to pretend to speak for everyone.
Reply #122 from Stardock Forums Top
Anyways when you're saying Illum is being BUFFED the big problem is that you're comparing it to the 1.03 illum, not the 1.02 one. (1)

Why not 1.02 Illum with front beam doing 70% of it's damage? Why, why, why? Because it's easier to make all the ships carbon copies with slight differences? (2)

Would it kill game balance if capital ships did 25% more damage to light and medium armor? I sure don't think so. CAPITAL damage could of just gotten a buffy vs LIGHT and MEDIUM. (3)

And if you think the 25% nerf in damage of flaks vs. lrms is going to make fighters better. You couldn't be more wrong. It just means people will build 25% MORE flaks. (4)
End of quote


(1) This is true, but the Illum is now more in line with the other LRMs, and the other LRMs were still as widely used despite the nerf in 1.03 so it's not QUITE as useless as you put forth. The cost is still too high comparatively (very probably), but it's ALL a step in the right direction.

(2) It IS a lot easier to make the ships carbon copies. The capital damage of the Illum was causing people not to use it, especially earlier on. This change to antimedium is an improvement. It's good that you're concerned about the 'big picture' balance, but at least have a small cheer before the patch actually comes out that they're moving the right way with this stuff :). I'm sure people will be more apt to listen to these concerns once the patch is actually out. A lot of us are just eager to move anywhere but the place we're in now.

(3) I don't think anyone is ignoring you as much as you seem to think. I'm sure a great deal of people have had the same thoughts you've had. I guarantee if you just let the patch come out and let people play around with stuff and see that the overall direction of multiplayer is or isn't changed by X change, then you might not even have to start your own thread.

(4) You're probably right. However, they are trying to make strikecraft better (the slight nerf to flaks). Though they may not have accomplished much, they are at least taking steps, though cautious ones. I think, for the most part, pretty much everyone agrees with most of your points. It's just that we're delighted and cheering them on and you're concerned about imperfections. The least you could do, honestly, is to let the patch come out and play it to prove your points :).

Also, telling others that they don't think because they disagree with you is not the best method for a productive argument.
Reply #123 from Sins Forums Top
looking forward to the patch. I think it's generally moving the game in the right direction. It should be interesting to observe how well long range frigates go chasing carriers in circles around the edge of gravity wells once 1.04 arrives.
Reply #124 from Sins Forums Top
"-AI is likely to gang up on the leading player in Easy or Normal."

Really need to reconsider this.

On larger maps or ones with 2 or more star systems. It is Very very difficult to do missions for AI's on the other side. Games with 3 or more AIs. The gang up factor is pretty high and really detracts from the game.

This is also exasperated by the fact that we are dancing to the AI's tune by having us ALWAYS reacting to there missions. They are setting the terms/missions, we can only react. Since, we can not and most likely it will never be part of the game, we can not give missions, a stronger preference on the AI's attacking should be given to the Bounty on a Races head. So, in a sense, we are giving a mission.

It is getting a bit rediculous having multiple AIs coming from the Far far end of the galaxy or different star system, ignoring there neighbors (expanding there own empire) to attack me. I do not border there empire (Zero tactical advantage for them to attack me), i have not attacked them. Gets a bit unrealistic when suddenly within a 5 minute span, three different full sized AI fleets ignore each other and start attacking me.


Edit--
Or is this a TYPO and the AI is less likely to attack the leading player on easy or medium difficulty??
Reply #125 from Sins Forums Top
ong range frigates go chasing carriers in circles around the edge of gravity wells
End of quote


If you find yourself going in circles then just split your fleet in half and send them in opposite directions.