[MAGOG]Kruelgor [MAGOG]Kruelgor

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This thread was called "Advent's Worse Nightmare - TEC Cobalt Light Frigate" but now that patch 1.04 fixes all that I am deleting this. The new patch rules!
strategy
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Reply #101 from Sins Forums Top
Yeah sounds reasonaly cause usually i attacked TEC players in their build up stage doing tradeports and stuff. Just rushed with disciples and after a tactical retreat i added eather drone hosts with bombers or illus to the mix.
Reply #102 from Sins Forums Top
guess i only played noobs then.
Drone hosts do nothing against LRMs. They are too feeble to stand against them and the strike craft isn't effective enough to act as a effective counter. Plus you won't ever be able to put out equal numbers compared to LRMs at the beginning of the game due to advents economy being poor. So you might have a few constructed but it won't be enough to act as a real counter.arent both economies the same same in the beginning?
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No, advent gets economical boosts much later in the game. TEC starts tier 1 and gets the trade port Tier 2. So thats a big advantage. Even Vasari has better economy due to metal and crystal being combined in one tech.

I'm not saying drones aren't effective against LRMs. Its more like they are but you would have to get a equal amount of them by the time a cobalt and lrm rush begins. And even if you could some how manage to, the cobalts will destroy the drones and you will have nothing to destroy the cobalts until tier 3(in 1.04). Even with a counter in 1.04 its not even a counter to cobalts at all since its a tier 3 unit vs a starter unit.

Again going back to drones, if you can some how manage to make it to end game then yea they would work well. Problem is advent MAKING it to end game. There is nothing that helps them get to that point. Which is the problem. If you are going against players who don't rush advent then chances are you will be able to tech up and make a respectable fleet and economy. But a smart non advent player will just rush you to prevent you from ever getting to that point. Basically during the rush it pushes advent resources to a downward spiral because you are spending resources trying to defend and make new units.

Even if you start making new drones during the rush, it takes time for strike craft to form. So the drones are sitting there while they are targets for a firing squad. By this time the cobalts and lrms probably have destroyed one of your extractors and working on the second. Which cripples your economy even more. But you still try to fight by pushing out disciples and occasionally a drone or defense vessel. But one by one isn't enough to hold a swarm of cobalts and lrms.

So you push back to your home world to try to make a counter fleet. But its not enough time to make something decent, plus your credits are now in the triple digits, metal and crystal in the double digits. While the assaulter is actually gaining resources due to his cobalts and LRMs not being annihilated and you not being able to take out his extractors and ports.

The only way to get saved from this is if you are in a team game and a team mate sends reinforcements your way. Which usually causes the TEC player to retreat, but still leaves you severely crippled from the assault and your team mate open for a assault of a neighboring enemy planet. Or you can try to turtle it up and go defensive. Surrounding yourself by repair platforms and defense hangars. Which works well to defend, except you can't expand so you will eventually lose.






Galactic Civilizations IV
Reply #103 from Sins Forums Top
I want to point out another crucial point:

If you chose to start producing a bunch of diciples before you know the OP's fleet composition, you will lose.

I have played as TEC and vasari many times against advent. Every time I play against them I rush lrms or assailants, and I ALWAYS win.

If an advent player starts the game by waisting resources on disciples that do crap against long range ships, they will lose. The best tactic against the weak advent is to rush them with a HUGE long range frigate fleet.

Defense vessels are a good counter, but, foolish to make before you know the OP's fleet composition. If you're playing advent, you're in a bind until you know what units your OP is getting. Getting diciples is a bad call, so what is a good call?.. starting with defense vessels works only if you know your opponent will lrm rush you. You could get carriers and micro well, but as other have pointed out that is a weak strategy.

I chose to rush some military labs and not get forces until I know my OP's fleet composition. Critically though, I produce non-stop after I know what counter unit to build. If I don't know what the OP has I make the save bet and get carriers (they are weak but they can counter anything.. if in a less effective way). After I get 3 planets I start on illuminators and critically I micro them so that they fire all 3 arcs at all times. CHARGE them into your opponent!

Reply #104 from Sins Forums Top
I want to point out another crucial point:If you chose to start producing a bunch of diciples before you know the OP's fleet composition, you will lose.I have played as TEC and vasari many times against advent. Every time I play against them I rush lrms or assailants, and I ALWAYS win.If an advent player starts the game by waisting resources on disciples that do crap against long range ships, they will lose. The best tactic against the weak advent is to rush them with a HUGE long range frigate fleet.Defense vessels are a good counter, but, foolish to make before you know the OP's fleet composition. If you're playing advent, you're in a bind until you know what units your OP is getting. Getting diciples is a bad call, so what is a good call?.. starting with defense vessels works only if you know your opponent will lrm rush you. You could get carriers and micro well, but as other have pointed out that is a weak strategy.I chose to rush some military labs and not get forces until I know my OP's fleet composition. Critically though, I produce non-stop after I know what counter unit to build. If I don't know what the OP has I make the save bet and get carriers (they are weak but they can counter anything.. if in a less effective way). After I get 3 planets I start on illuminators and critically I micro them so that they fire all 3 arcs at all times. CHARGE them into your opponent!
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This isn't viable. Especially in 1.04 when defense vessels will be ineffective against LRMs. So then what? Even now your strat is extremely flawed, at least from my perspective. I'll tell you why:

Not making Disciples will only put you in the a financial hole in the long run. You might be able to cap a asteroid but when it comes to getting a planet you won't be able to with just a cap ship. So basically sitting there with just a cap ship while trying to slowly wait to have enough resources to build 2-3 hostility temples will still put you at a severe disadvantage. Actually worse than making disciples to cap planets.

Another thing is, advent doesn't have a long range frigate until tier 3. Which means you need resources to get there which you don't have and you need resources to make illuminators which you won't have. So its like you're running on a treadmill and getting no where. Since ever possible thing you can think of puts you in some sort of hole financially or offensively.

While I'll agree that advent needs to scout before making moves, EVERY faction should need to scout before making plans. Unfortunately, there is no need for tec and vasari to make any plans to fight against advent. They just rush in and make quick work of them. It just shows that advent is broken, when you don't even have to consider your options when fighting against them. The only time they become a threat and on par with the other two factions is end game. But they will never get that far against a smart TEC or Vasari player.

Reply #105 from Sins Forums Top
I want to point out another crucial point:If you chose to start producing a bunch of diciples before you know the OP's fleet composition, you will lose.I have played as TEC and vasari many times against advent. Every time I play against them I rush lrms or assailants, and I ALWAYS win.If an advent player starts the game by waisting resources on disciples that do crap against long range ships, they will lose. The best tactic against the weak advent is to rush them with a HUGE long range frigate fleet.Defense vessels are a good counter, but, foolish to make before you know the OP's fleet composition. If you're playing advent, you're in a bind until you know what units your OP is getting. Getting diciples is a bad call, so what is a good call?.. starting with defense vessels works only if you know your opponent will lrm rush you. You could get carriers and micro well, but as other have pointed out that is a weak strategy.I chose to rush some military labs and not get forces until I know my OP's fleet composition. Critically though, I produce non-stop after I know what counter unit to build. If I don't know what the OP has I make the save bet and get carriers (they are weak but they can counter anything.. if in a less effective way). After I get 3 planets I start on illuminators and critically I micro them so that they fire all 3 arcs at all times. CHARGE them into your opponent!This isn't viable. Especially in 1.04 when defense vessels will be ineffective against LRMs. So then what? Even now your strat is extremely flawed, at least from my perspective. I'll tell you why:Not making Disciples will only put you in the a financial hole in the long run. You might be able to cap a asteroid but when it comes to getting a planet you won't be able to with just a cap ship. So basically sitting there with just a cap ship while trying to slowly wait to have enough resources to build 2-3 hostility temples will still put you at a severe disadvantage. Actually worse than making disciples to cap planets.Another thing is, advent doesn't have a long range frigate until tier 3. Which means you need resources to get there which you don't have and you need resources to make illuminators which you won't have. So its like you're running on a treadmill and getting no where. Since ever possible thing you can think of puts you in some sort of hole financially or offensively. While I'll agree that advent needs to scout before making moves, EVERY faction should need to scout before making plans. Unfortunately, there is no need for tec and vasari to make any plans to fight against advent. They just rush in and make quick work of them. It just shows that advent is broken, when you don't even have to consider your options when fighting against them. The only time they become a threat and on par with the other two factions is end game. But they will never get that far against a smart TEC or Vasari player.
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It is entirely possible to skip deciples and get 3 military labs on maps where you have access to 2 asteroids, and even on other maps it is possible, especially with the progenitor colonizer cap where you can send it pretty far from your HW to capture planets without worrying about pirates or antimatter reserves hindering it.


What I would suggest for players who insist on getting disciples would be to "force" your opponent to get the ship that diciples are good against.. so like.. get illuminators still because the counter for illuminators is flaks, but diciples rape flaks. Just a suggestion.


My point was simply that advent are critically weak against a long range frigate rush because the ship that most advent players use to clear planets is weak against long range frigates. As far as specific ways that the advent can compensate for this, I have yet to see any that are effective in the long run.


The best advent players I know play defense until they have a few military labs and can get a good ratio of defense/illums/drones etc, but this strategy is particularly weak in multiplayer as it hinders an advent player from helping to rush an opponent or defend a team mate.

The advent are WAY too weak pre 1.04 I look forward to the illum buff.