Raging Amish Raging Amish

Your First Cap: Colonizer vs. Any of the Other Four Edited: 16/7/08

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Your First Cap: Colonizer vs. Any of the Other Four Edited: 16/7/08

from Sins Forums
Edited: 21/6/08

I've been playing this game for a while now, and I noticed everyone has their own way, as according to the forums and what I see online, they like to go early in a game for which cap ship to build first. Some like the Sova rush, others like a battleship to start, some prefer the Marza, and then others prefer the colonizer. After having seen and used them all, I'm throwing my opinion out there.

The colonizer is the best option for the first cap. People talk about how they only pick the colonizer, or only pick the battleship. Regardless, the colonizer is hands down the best one. There's a lot of things to consider:

1. If you don't get the colonizer, you have to buy a colony frigate, possibly two. People argue that the colonizing frigate is nice because once you've gobbled up your planets, you can then get neutral mines. Sure, that is a nice perk, but that takes forever. The colonizer's antimatter regenerates much slower, and loses 100 with each jump. Couple that with needing 90 to colonize and 1/2 antimatter point / sec regen rate, and it will inhibit your initial expansion. The colonizing capital ship regenerates 1-ish antimatter a second, and has a larget antimatter pool. Expansion is no longer inhibited by waiting to colonize.

The other drawback to using colonizing frigates is they eat precious minerals very early in the game. When you are only making 1 metal a sec and .5 crystal a sec, the 100-140 metal (race dependent) and 50 crystal that you have to give up for a colony frigate can really hurt early on, especially if you get two.

2. The colonizing cap has a special ability attached to it's colonize ability.

The Akkan (TEC) gives 1 free mine at lvl 2 and 2 mines at lvl 3. I don't consider this all that useful. I mean, it's a nice perk, but I'd rather have Ion bolt fully upgraded than get the small boost from getting those mines free and up and running quicker.

3. By expanding quickly with the colonizing cap ( as in getting your planets up and running quicker than you would if you were waiting for the colony frig), you are going to be able to afford a fleet a lot quicker. This is just common sense. You get more planets, you have more raw resources, your upgrading your planets quickly, and you have a much higher overall income rate. You economy is much more stable much quicker because you have more planets.

4. Sometimes, early game battles are decided by the accompanying fleet, not the cap itself. This doesn't apply after about 30 min, but initially fleets are so small (cap + 10-15 frigs) that the most effective thing to do is to micro target the opponents frigs, not cap (Well, unless you're vasari, see my post "Illuminator Spammer"). Since any cap can take hits from 10 - 15 ships for at least a while, it really doesn't matter that your cap is a little weaker than a battleship in the initial parts of the game.

I want to start bringing up the exception. TEC fleets just don't pack the punch I want in early games. This is the race I'm most likely to not pick the colonizer because the force of a Kol, Dunov, Marza, or even Sova can be much more useful.

5. This is the part that I use to convince myself to go colonizer. By expanding and getting an eco established early, you're going to make getting the second cap go much quicker. You can get a second cap if you so desperately need it, and by going with the colonizer early, the second cap will come much quicker.

I love the colonizer for every race. People say it's easy to destory. Not really. People say you can be rushed and pay by not having a strong cap. Bull. You can have a fleet to counter a rush if you really have to worry about that. Not to mention, each colonizer has some trump ability, and that includes the Akkan, that comes in very handy.

The evacuator becomes a seige engine in the end with lvl 6 and thanks to its nanite bomb no enemy cap is safe.

The mother ship not only has a beautiful colonizing ability, but malice and shield regen. It's lvl 6 is also nice if you do lose that one cap.

The Akkan has ion bolt, which is great for getting that fleeing cap. It's also great because if you fire it right as a mothership is firing shield regen, you cancel the ability and bring Advent fleets on par with TEC.

The % increase ability is ok, but Armistice is a beaut. You can stop a fight and escape with your entire fleet is you see you're going to lose. This may not seem that great, but say you have split your fleet, and he sends everything at the one that has armistice. That smaller fleet can run while your other terrorizes the enemy planets..

There's the case though...of smaller maps. These of course are different. On a map where you're almost certain you'll be engaging your opponent in less than 20 minutes, getting a different cap isn't a bad idea at all.

 I'm not making an all encompasing statement here. Play Point Blank and choose the Colony Cap and you're writing your death warrant, but still, 95% of the time now I pick the colonizer. I only ever pick anything else on very small maps, such as Razor's edge, where having some ability such as a seige bonus will be necessary to win.

This is just my opinion. I welcome all criticism, positive or negative.

strategy
42,999 views 89 replies
Reply #51 from Sins Forums Top
If you don't build a scout (or some other non-capship unit) to check out the surrounding planets then, unless there is only one route out of your homeworld, you risk sending your cap to a volcanic/ice planet first instead of the asteroid. This results in 1 of 2 scenarios:
End of quote


Or to a heavily defended Terran or Desert, which will also slow down your colonization considerably.
Reply #52 from Sins Forums Top
Valid points all around... enough so to encourage experimentation.

Just wanted to say thanks for the debate guys (and girls???), and for keeping it civil. I like the fact there's not a single way to play, and that you can use a style that fits your "person". To me, that's what makes a game great to play.

I also appreciate that, for the most part, responses were actually READ before being responded to.

And no, it's not April 1st, that was a few weeks ago.

T

Multiplicity - Control multiple PCs using one keyboard and mouse
Reply #53 from Sins Forums Top
I predominantly play Vasari, and my first cap is always the Eggacuator. It has pretty neat abilities, despite the incredibly weak colonization effect, and it later on very useful as a main attack vessel in a fleet. It's a colony ship that has a planet killing ability that instagibs unupgraded worlds, what's not to like?
While the capship fab is building, I'm training 3 scouts and sending them around to see in which direction to take my Egg when it's done. I normally build the colony frigate much later, if at all.
When playing TEC, it can go either way. Lately, I've been impressed by the Marza's Radiation Bomb and it's effectiveness against rogue ships and pirates, so I've been trying out the colony frigate start very much. And with TEC and Advent, you pretty much have to build colony frigs anyway for their asteroid claiming ability. With Advent I still prefer a Progenitor start, as it's much more survivable than any of the other, but is followed by a Radiance as soon as the first fleet and command researches are done, because a Radiance combined with a Progenitor is extremely effective at keeping your early-game fleet alive and shooting.
I can't even imagine not scouting.
Reply #54 from Sins Forums Top
I wanted to add my 2 cents on the topic after doing some experimenting...

First of all, I am only speaking from my experience. It's also worth noting that the majority of my time is spent on larger maps as apposed to small ones. Typically you have 20 to 30 minutes before you even start fighting another person.

As TEC, what seemed to work well for me this past game was to start with a Kol/colony frigate and quickly acquire all the immediate planets around my homeworld. After that, I went for a 2nd cap early and got the colonizer. I then made those two a team and gave it light support and sent that out to capture things more in the danger zone.

I then used my frigates and colony frigate to acquire the easier asteroids or simply clean up behind my cap-ship fleet. This really increased my capture speed and allowed me to boom my economy pretty well.

Now, I can see how it can be harder to get a 2nd cap early on as Advent or Vasari so I can't promise it'll work as well there, but for me playing TEC, going for two cap ships early (knowing I wouldn't be zerged within 15 mins or so) allowed me to really expand quickly within the first 30 mins of the game.
Reply #55 from Sins Forums Top
Very good topic Amish. At this point there seems to be two dominant debate questions.

A.Is getting first colony cap better than using a colony ship and a a different cap?
A1. If we assume getting the colony cap ship is better, when playing TEC is it worth getting the Akkan?

As stating by Amish and the majority, the colony capital ship should be the starting capital of choice. Expansion speed is only limited by the anti-matter of your colony capital ship and the resources saved to pay development costs. The fact that your colony capital ship is free, as opposed to the colony ship, and the fact that it regenerates antimatter quicker and starts with more, combined with "trump abilities." basically wraps up the debate for that question.

However,there is one instance when a colony ship is superior to a colony cap. If you are playing on a very small to small map, in a 1v1 situation, there is an opening rush tactic that might make the colony ship playable:

Immediately build 1 colony ship (it should be built first so the anti-matter pool starts growing earlier) and 1 scout. With the scout find your nearest roid and attack the kosov seige frigate and send your colony ship in immediately. Colonize the roid, and use the colony ship and the scout to finish off the siege frigate.

upgrade the roid, and build your extractors, while keeping the colony ship in the system--preferably kiting-- to agro the remaining cobalt (so it doesn't attack your construction ship).Send your scout off to find your enemy. If it is a premade map you might not even need the scout and can scuttle it,

At this point your real capital ship will be done and can finish off the cobalt near your roid. You should be able to save the colony ship, but i would probably scuttle it for resources. ALso, you should be massing cobalts (skirmishers, discipline vessels, w/e). Also, scuttle your cap ship factory.

This is the fastest expansion in the gameto my knowledge, I would use a delayed capital ship factory opening (extractors first, to maximize resources gained).

The goal is not to colonize other planets, it is to kill you opponent in the first 15 minutes of the game. Use the your overwhelming numbers (and set your frigate factory rally point to enemy homeworld) to defeat said opponent.

As for the other Akkan v colony ship question; I would still take the Akkan. More anti-matter makes more colonies that makes for a better economy that yields a greater fleet, that ultimately kills your opponent. Thus, the colonizing cap should be your first choice unless it is a very small map.



Reply #56 from Sins Forums Top
I think for Advent, it is really hard to argue against the Mothership. For Vasari and TEC, it comes down to style and map. If you pick a ship that favors your playstyle and the specifics of the map, you can do very well with a number of ships.
Reply #57 from Sins Forums Top
For TEC, I go with Kol, and instead buy two Protevs to tail it. One colonizes while the other recharges. And, frankly, Armistice is useless - if I'm in a position where I have to retreat, my cap sure as hell won't have enough antimatter left to use it.

A Kol can clear any un-colonized gravity well alone at low level (~3) unless it's a neutral colony or a pirate base, and so doesn't need support. In fact, using only my Kol, I have never lost a quick claiming skirmish, ever. So, less micro, less fleet cap used. In larger games, this leaves you with ~60-70 fleet cap left. Research Basic Officer Training, pump out a Dunov, send it out to wherever your Kol is, team them up, and exterminate. By the time your basic empire is set up, leading into the mid-game, they ought to be around level 6, both of them. Now, the Kol's Finest Hour lets it regen antimatter fast... and the Dunov's Flux Field cuts all antimatter costs (Except FH, it seems) in three.
Cue the Gauss, Flak and Forcefield autocasting, limited only by recharge times, while the Dunov heals the Kol's shields. Add in a few Hoshikos that also get the /3 bonus (And thus able to autocast both healing and demo bots constangtly for 60 secs, and still function better than a pure healing H would normally), and the Dunov's ability to disable your abilities, and you've got a fleet harder to take out than Chekhov's Building, requiring you to either wait and take out my prime damage dealer after the rest are dead - all the while getting pounded, and with your own prime damage dealers restricted to brawling and with their air support grounded - or spend an obscene amount of time dealing little to no damage.
Of course, the 1-to-4 operational time is this tac's Achilles' heel, requiring me to have at least 150 AM at both caps just at the end before hittin R-tab-R.

I've seen this particular combo clear lightly-guarded grav wells in literally seconds.
Reply #58 from Sins Forums Top
An Illum spammer will bring that fleet to tears.
Reply #59 from Sins Forums Top
An Illum spammer will bring that fleet to tears.
End of quote


A tactic without counters is no tactic at all, but an exploit.
Besides, you were the one who told me how to beat that: In addition to the Gardas that I always keep around, pump out a few Arcovas.
Reply #60 from Sins Forums Top
It should be obvious that the colonizer cap is faster at expanding than the other caps.

"I can clear stuff with my radiance faster than the mothership while my colony frig is taking the planets behind me!"

How fast you actually clear the planets is irrelevant as long as you cant colonize them the moment you are done. Waiting for the antimatter to take a planet is what slows down the non-colonizer caps, not the firepower.

"I can split it up and colonize astroids with a colonize frig + a few disciples/skirmeshers/whatever while my battleship cap clears the heavier defended planets!"

Guess what. A colonizer cap can do the exact same thing. Except you get the desert/terran planets much faster while a colony frig takes the astroids with the help of 3-4 frigs.

The only reason I see for not taking a colonize cap as the first ship is if you expect to fight alot early on a small map. Or if you simply dont have fun with the particular ship. But if you do the cold hard math, then a colonizer brings cash in faster and it is your fleet that will win the game for you.
Reply #61 from Sins Forums Top
@ Inferfectus

So you were listening  :CONGRAT: 

TEC is by far the race I'm most likely to pick something besides the colonizing capital ship, mainly because the first really useful ability it gives besides Colonize is Armistice (Ion bolt's only good if your opponent's retreating)

What I don't like though is that you got two caps very early. In the first half hour of the game, a second cap realllllllllly isn't advisable. That's what my problem with your strategy was. There's two reasons.

1. Expense. 3000 creds, 400 metal, and 250 crystal, not to mention the 1200 cred, 75 crystal cap crew upgrade. That's 4200 creds, 400 metal, and 325 crystal for a second cap. That's way too much of a hit on early eco for ONE ship.

2. Damage output. I want you to consider something here. I'm going to compare 7 Illuminators vs. 1 Kol, what I consider to be the beast among beasts of capital ships.

Damage: 128.1 dps vs. 50 dps
Cost: 2680 Creds, 420 metal, 385 crystal vs. 4200 Creds, 400 metal, 325 Crystal.

The cost significance is about the same. More minerals for a fleet, more credits for a capital ship, so it balances out.

Damage output from a fleet is far superior to a capital ship. That's why I said what I said. By the time you start making a fleet, have both of those caps to lvl. 6, I'd be on your front door probably with 20 scouts +, 5 light frigs +, my mothership, and 15+ Illuminators.
Reply #62 from Sins Forums Top
That is indeed a very valid point. I might have pointed out that this choice is for large maps only, where leveling up your capitals has a bigger impact than economy, as that soars into the sky soon enough and stays there. In smaller maps, I'd probably either go for the Akkan, or take a Sova and set up an embargo. Then, I send in loads of Cobalts, tech up to Krosovs, bomb you to the stone age, and claim your homeworld for my own. If there are more than two players, I'd try a more... sustainable approach.

However, remember that the Kol's dps stays stable - even going up if it levels up during the fight - whereas a fleet of Illums can be chipped at and taken down, one at a time, more easily, losing a part of their overall dps for every one. But the Kol would still have to take a beating, and I'd have to buy more ships than just the one.

As an aside, how many Arcs do you estimate per Illum?
Reply #63 from Sins Forums Top
The probelm I have caps is that if you lose them, they're very hard to replace. And your strategy is very good on a larger map where your opponent is 6-7 jumps away. I don't see anything against ur idea there.

I'd say probably cut the Illum damage in half because side beams can't aim at the kol too, but then again, you have to consider that Illuminators are normally paired with Guardians, Halycons, and Motherships, all of which make them stronger. And while the Illums are microing the cap, the side beams are firing at whatever else you have.

Course, then I'd have to consider that the Kol is accompanied by a Dunov, Hoshiko's, and possibly Cielo's.

Still, I stand by the one major drawback of two capital ships early. They chew up ship slots, provide a bulwark in the fleet, but they just don't provide the same damage output that frigates will.

And if you do decide to make 2 caps early, that means you're not going to have too many frigates. The only cap I micro away as Advent is something that physically supports the fleet, like any Advent cap, the Egg, the Dunov. Late game, you can add Akkan to that list. My order of targetting is support caps, support cruisers, frigates, then Caps.

Also, it's a punk move, but let's say I show up, you have your caps, I have repulse. I can micro with repulse to keep your cap in the gravity well.

I dunno. Every strategy I hear, I always see what's great, but I immediately focus on the drawbacks. Great strat, really, I'm just very critical  ;) 
Reply #64 from Sins Forums Top
although the focus has been on TEC caps throughout most of the conversation, let me also add that the Egg is a great cap killer in it's own right and the mothership adds invaluable support to a fleet of illums. In fact, I've had some success targeting the mothership before the illums in large battles because the mothership can no longer regen shields and malice my fleet, both of which add exponential value to the battle.

For TEC, the choice may not be so cut and dry, but for Advent or Vasari, I'd hands down have to say the colonizer.
Reply #65 from Sins Forums Top
If I'm either Advent or Vasari, I build the colony capital ship first because they have amazing special powers, especialy the Vasari Evacuator's (Whale Ship) Nano-Disassembler. If I'm TEC, I build a kol because the kol decimates pirates and the TEC Colony Capital Ship is kinda crappy.

You also want to build at least one scout for every phas lane from you homeworld (with a minimum of 3).
Reply #66 from Sins Forums Top
I generally play Vasari and by far prefer getting the Vulkoras, as its phase missile swarm devastates militias and pirates, and it remains useful later in the game as a bombardment ship.
Reply #67 from Sins Forums Top
Interfectus -- if you build a second cap, you also have to research the logistics to open up a second cap ship slot (1200,0,75). This is roughly the money you should be spending to research your long range frigate. Your cap ship takes up 50 fleet points, roughly 8 Illums / Assailants or 12 LRM's. Even considering you will not have as much firepower per cost, you will top out sooner as well. You mention that the frigate fleet will incrementally lose power as individual ships die, but guess what? Most Vasari / Advent players run away their damaged LRF's...TEC probably doesn't because he doesn't care about individual LRM's as much, but ironically, his LRM fleet has higher dps vs caps due to numbers (at least early game, before assailants get teched up). Dunov's are fairly easy targets -- no good player is going to actually try and kill the capship the Dunov is shield boosting.

Finally, your Cobalt / Krosov strategy for small maps....is so hilarious I can't help but wonder if you ever play online or maybe you are just a troll? Or if by small maps you mean a map where the HW's are 1-2 jumps from each other? By all means, continue to use your multi-cap strategy against the computer or on large multi-star maps.

While I don't always agree with Raging Amish on exactly every point he makes, his posts and strategies are very, very sound. My hat goes off to him for engaging in meaningful dialogue with you -- and for spending large amounts of energy trying to teach new players the ropes.
Reply #68 from Sins Forums Top
Dunov's are fairly easy targets -- no good player is going to actually try and kill the capship the Dunov is shield boosting.
End of quote
You are welcome to target my Dunovs. While my Hoshikos heal it, I'll retreat it, and let my Kol engage targets of opportunity.
Finally, your Cobalt / Krosov strategy for small maps....is so hilarious I can't help but wonder if you ever play online or maybe you are just a troll?
End of quote
The Cobalts and Krosovs aren't the main thing. The main thing is using a Sova to embargo the other player's homeworld, which basically gives me their money, while harassing them with strike craft at the same time. Properly microed, that ship ought to be able to survive for a while. Then, fleet makeup becomes immaterial, since we've played for 10-15 minutes, and you've given me half your money. You won't have had time to research anything, only to try to take out my cap. The Cobalts rush in only a few minutes after the cap has started embargoing you, and they just keep coming. This force will not be your average game winner, but with you already underpowered - as stated - they likely won't have too much of a problem mopping up your grav well. Then, the Krosovs come in simply so that the Sova won't have to bombard your planet by itself.
See here under Sova rush.

Basically, it's not a Cobalt/Krosov strategy - it's an Embargo strategy. And it also requires that I find you very quickly. And, yes, that means 4-9 planets maps, where I can get to you fast enough that you can't take out my Sova too fast.

Thank you for your helpful, meaningful and insightful post, Cykur. I will be certain to keep all your helpful advice and thoughtful comments on my strategy - such as advicing me to use my strategy for huge maps only on huge maps, or criticizing my strategy for tiny 2-player maps for only being viable on tiny maps - at the back of my head when I'm playing.
Next time, however, please try to give proper advice, not just snarky commentary.
Reply #69 from Stardock Forums Top
Well, as Vassari, I can't even think of using something besides the Eggsecutor, as it's DoT can wipe out a cap ship before it'll even beat up the shields, on low levels. The other thing there is that I've seen the charts, and I'm massively disappointed to see that the Vassari cap ships are WAY less powerful than the other capital ships. This was wicked disappointing to me, because I thought the Vassari were the military juggs.

This was an early misconception.

I actually read all three pages of this discussion, even though almost none of it applied to me, as I found early on it was mostly just about TEC. However, I was really surprised to see that even though strategies were torn up, no one really got nasty. Well, except Cykur, but he seems like an idiot anyway.

The Akkan seems like a pretty nasty machine. I've noticed on the charts that it is a beast. It's got a TON of health, a TON of armor, and they both level better than the rest of the support caps. Not only is it a good support machine, it's hard to kill, very important.

Experience of cap ships is very important to me as well, which is why I buy levels. No one has mentioned this, so I will assume that it is frowned upon.

I do not play this game online, only LAN with my friends, and we typically pair up against each other, and so do not rush, or have any of the seriousness of you guys, who have some pretty elaborate and awesome strategies that would break the balance of our circle, but it's been pretty cool watching this unfold.

Guess that's all I wanted to say.
Reply #70 from Sins Forums Top
The original point of the thread was colonizer caps vs other caps. If someone wants to build a Kol instead of an Akkan, that is perfectly understandable. A Kol is a rock solid choice that fits certain playstyles. But then came the distinctly bad advice that will mess up new players -- to build a second capship.

As both Raging Amish and myself tried to point out, the cost of immediately building a second cap is just too high. The money you spend getting your second cap could have instead bought you the technology for your long range frigate and rolled out a bunch of them. Those massed long range frigates (lrm's, assailants, or illuminators) have a significantly higher damage output than the second cap. If the capship builder makes Hoshiko's to protect his caps, guess what, the LRF spammer is just going to make more LRF's and have even more damage output. On really big maps, there is time to invest in nursing your capships to get them leveled up a bit and allow their more powerful abilities to kick in. On a small-medium sized map, it is the kiss of death. The other thing to point out, is two (or more) capships have to share experience. A pack of LRF's will level up a single capship much more quickly than two capships working in tandem. That single capship will hit level 6 first -- some caps become very serious threats at level 6.

Now, about the Cobalts and Krosovs -- these ships are purely incidental to the main strategy, the Sova rush. Yes, if you can be in the enemies HW in 1-2 jumps, you can Sova rush, and you can even Cobalt rush. The Sova is very powerful in this situation and is hard to counter -- so hard to counter, one might argue it is practically an exploit in itself. Guess what, while you could mop up with Cobalts, you could mop up even more hardcore with LRM's. If you Sova rush and go to LRM's asap, you are much harder to beat than if you use Cobalts -- persisting in spamming Cobalts will actually give the other guy a chance to recover if he is a good player. What you use to nuke the enemies world after you have beaten them really doesn't matter.

When I look back at my post I see the tone was a bit strong -- I was incredulous as to where this theorycraft was coming from, because I couldn't imagine it was coming from online play. It is frustrating to see people handing out bad advice to new players. Snarky comments notwithstanding, my advice was proper and I'd love to pit my strategy against yours any day of the week.
Reply #71 from Sins Forums Top
Actually, I am a new player and just weaving out stuff to see where it goes. Since I mostly play on HUGE maps, where you generally end up fully upgrading and filling up the tac/log slots of each new colony before your ships even reach their next destination, the drain on resources from building two or more caps is incidental, as is the tech lost. You can pretty much tech out the entire tree before even facing an enemy scouting party, so why restrain yourself?
I also attempted to modify my theory as I went. You may notice my original strat is different from the one you tore to pieces with a radioactive flame thrower launcher dipped in xenomorph acid and then sent to West Point wearing a sign saying "I Hate U.S."
You may not have noticed, but this form of "bickering" that I used with RA is just a way I use to get feedback and hone my tactics - and trash those that don't work. The entire Cobalt/Krosovs thing was just me taking the cheapest way to end an already-nigh-unlosable game.
I'm not gonna pit my strategy against yours any time soon. First thing, I'm still playing my way up the AI levels. Second thing, I don't like you enough to consider the prospect of playing you fun. Which is the only reason to play, IMO.

Also, I don't know where you got your definition of trolling, but you shouldn't use vocab that you don't understand any more than I should give out advice I don't understand.
Reply #72 from Sins Forums Top
While I'm willing to only give you a 4/10 for knowledge of game mechanics, your sarcasm rates an 8/10.
Reply #73 from Sins Forums Top
Now children, am I going to have to separate you two? I'll pull this intergalactic spaceship over if I have to.
Reply #75 from Sins Forums Top
An Amish in a starship?
End of quote



It's hell on the horse...

T