3 Questions from an 'Intermediate' Player » Forum Post by killerKeller

I'll try and answer your questions.

1. I would say yes, to fleet upgrades. I find typically towards later game upgrades are going make the difference between you winning or losing.

2. Partly, maybe buy 1 level or 2 if you got the cash. Otherwise don't.

3. Its a risk, why risk a cap ship when you can toss in some support units? Cap ships aren't like godly unbeatable in this game. I've lost a few, and i've destroyed a few its not that difficult. Sure a cap ship may be able to handle a small fight by itself, but why risk it? Plus you have to start developing your fleet sometime.

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As a vasari player I don't send out LFs to say take over the nearby asteroid. I slap down a military lab and go for kanraks instead, letting my cap ship (easily) take the asteroid by itself.

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Tridus

Join Date 03/2008

+110

1. The more ships you have, the more valuable upgrades are. If you only have a handful of Illuminators, building another one is a bigger damage boost then the upgrade. If you have 30 of them, the upgrades can really start to pack some punch. In general I don't go for weapon upgrades early (phase missiles are the notable exception due to their awesomeness and low cost), as armor/hull/shield upgrades work on every ship you have whereas weapons don't.

2. Early game, no. You need those credits for other ships/economy. Later on I'd say so, credits are easier to get and level 1 ships are pretty vulnerable against non-early game fleets.

3. A Colonizer Cap by itself can handle the units around an asteroid, but at one of those more heavily guarded Desert worlds it'll become pretty seriously damaged. That leaves it open to attack by another player on a small map. A few frigates can help. Situational, I think.

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People already answered the substantive questions, so I'll just go for the site one...

Currently I get the most millage out of this Sins of a Solar Empire Wiki. Some of the pages are incomplete or missing, but it has most of the units I want to quick reference covered and done so accurately without having to launch the game or check game files for information.

Clans of Sin has some the tech trees up, which are neat for quick checking if you forget just what tier something is or it's cost...

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thanks guys.

another thing though -

i just tried to tech rush to RA on a 3v3, (never played Vasari before), and found that it was a complete was of time - the recharge time is so long that i got wiped out even with 3 Phase stabilizers trying to spew them out...

any tips?

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Imo, super weapons are gravy. Don't tech-rush to them. Planets first, then better ships, armour upgrades, weapon upgrades, and gravy for flavour. Don't research all of the available ships or weapons - just the ones you're going to use. Same with culture. Start with planet upgrades, then trade and culture. Add gravy at your leisure.

Start with a strategy, then settle for trying to save your arse. It works for me - sometimes

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People already answered the substantive questions, so I'll just go for the site one...Currently I get the most millage out of this Sins of a Solar Empire Wiki. Some of the pages are incomplete or missing, but it has most of the units I want to quick reference covered and done so accurately without having to launch the game or check game files for information. Clans of Sin has some the tech trees up, which are neat for quick checking if you forget just what tier something is or it's cost...

Don't make 3... Make like 20 of them. Fill all possible logistic slots of all planets with the gates, period.

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1. Ship Upgrades (offensive). Thoughts on this? Worth its salt? (e.g. the Illumi Beam Upgrades (to30%))

They are worth the money, but only at the right time. Early game when your fleet is small, you increase your firepower more by simply using the money you'd spend on upgrades to buy more ships. This changes when your fleet gets large enough. It's kind of a balancing act. You don't want to get the weapons upgrades too early when they won't help as much as more ships, but if you wait too long, your opponent will be ahead of you tech wise.

2. Worth paying to upgrade your caps?

Early game, no, not when they are plenty of neutrals to beat on. Usually, my last capital I build in mid game, though, I will pay to upgrade it. At that point in the game a level 1 capital ship is dog meat for enemy LRM frigates and heavy cruisers. Buying them up to level 4 is a good idea in that situation, and it does make a difference.

3. Many people recommend sending out LFs at the beginnging with cap ship... Why when the cap ship can do the job by itself (colony) and you can save the much needed creds you spent on the LFs on boosting your feeble economy?

There's a great deal of legitimate debate on this. I like to send a few light frigates with my cap ship (colony or otherwise) because they can clear the neutrals faster than the cap by itself, and thus speed your colonization and expansion a bit.

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1. Ship Upgrades (offensive). Thoughts on this? Worth its salt? (e.g. the Illumi Beam Upgrades (to30%))

Regarding advent and illuminators, I would say that early-mid game shield, hull, and guardian upgrades are much more important. The first two beam upgrades are expensive, and only increase the average beam damage (if you look in game) one point per upgrade, whereas the first few shield and hull upgrades improve each by about a hundred points, and are relatively inexpensive (until you hit around level 4).

I have lost battles where I had almost 10 more illums then the other guy, simply because he had more hull upgrades and a higher level of malice.

2. Worth paying to upgrade your caps?

It depends on the opponent, and again I am speaking for advent. If you are playing someone where you will have a fight on your hands relatively early, and a stiff one at that, then it probably would not be a bad idea to pay for the first couple levels to get to level 2 malice fast. Even the first level upgrade may be worth paying for in general as it is fairly cheap (about 656 I believe).

3. Many people recommend sending out LFs at the beginnging with cap ship... Why when the cap ship can do the job by itself (colony) and you can save the much needed creds you spent on the LFs on boosting your feeble economy?

I almost never send light frigs out with my cap ship. The cap ship alone is fine for dropping roids and 1-1-1-1 planets, and any planets with significant militia I usually just wait until i have long range frigs. Early game that cred is better spent getting to long range frigs faster...

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I'm still somewhat of a beginner and my experience is limited to AI. I can beat two hard and I'm working on 3 hard.

1) If you factor a 5% increase in damage, then you need to have at least 20 of a single type of ship to get an increase of 1 ships worth of damage. At that point it's a cost analysis of the upgrade vs. the new ship. If you have a small mixed fleet, then you're only boosting one portion of your fleet. A new ship or a defensive upgrade are better in this case.

2) Early in the game, if you build an Akkan and get it to level 3 by buying one level and leveling it on some roids you can get colony upgrade #2 (I think). This nets you a free extractor a little earlier in the game. It's your call on this. If your scouts found 3 roids near you then I might do it.

3) I used to build LF's but I realized they run the risk of being destroyed if I don't jump them out when the shields are down. This cripples your economy. If you expect a rush, build them. If not, dont. If you do build them, manage them carefully (stay near the rim of the grav well and jump individual ships out at 80% hull).

Remember: Early colonization, all you need to destroy are the bombers. I generally go for them first. Once they're down I can colonize the planet and finish off the rest. If I don't have the creds and resources for at least one planet upgrade however, I keep shooting bad guys. I've found having auto-colonize disabled is better. It really jacks up your game sometime. "NO IDIOT DON'T GO THERE..."

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1) If you factor a 5% increase in damage, then you need to have at least 20 of a single type of ship to get an increase of 1 ships worth of damage.

This analysis is missing something, though. It considers only damage-per-second without factoring in the state of the game and location of your fleet.

Consider: an upgrade applies an *immediate bonus* to the ships and structures it affects wherever they are on the map. You don't have to wait for additional ships to be constructed, and don't have to wait for them to arrive at a useful location from the source frigate bay.

This is important when you are fighting a war on two fronts. Here's a heavily contrived early-game TEC example: you have 6 light frigates that are about to engage 6 enemy light frigates two jumps away from your frigate construction facility on your left, and the same situation on your right. Assume you don't want to flee either battle.

You'd have to spend 300/55/0 and 300/55/0 to build two frigates and wait two minutes for the first, and three minutes for the second, for them to get to the two different enemy fleet locations. Or, you could spend 400/0/25 to upgrade your weapon by 5% and 92 seconds later, BOTH of your fleets would be stronger than the enemy.

In this case, doing the research instead makes even more sense if you're pretty much out of metal and heavy on crystal.

-- Retro

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That's very true. The use of upgrades can be used in a situational advantage. With two fleets of 6 you can only add power to 1 by adding another ship. The upgrade might net you two territories whereas the ship only gives you one.

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On the topic of damage upgrades its important to keep upkeep in mind as well. Personal experience suggests after the second supply upgrade and I've built LR up to near my fleet cap then credits are well spent on missile upgrades. Building more frigates will take a third supply upgrade and a very hefty upkeep bill. Usually this marks my transition point between LR and HC. If I am in a heads up battle where every shot counts, I will upgrade LR damage before working on HC tech.

Bringing frigates w/ your Captial to a neutral is situational. The more guns you bring, the faster the neutrals go down, and time is a very valuable resource.

I think maybe you are talking about very early game? Always scout that nearby asteroid, you don't need frigates to capture it, only your Capital. It is a waste to build LF just to cap an asteroid. If you have more than one asteroid to capture, I would skip the light frigates while letting my capital do the work, and tech to long range. If you are after a bigger prize (desert/terran) as your second/third colony, you'll need to bring some frigates. Be quick, tech up, and some Long Range should be ready in time. In most of my games, I don't build LF at all.

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Capships are handy. As few as three can take out the neutral colonies with little damage. I don't build frigs unless I run into another player or a pirate base early. I've beaten three hard using mostly cap ships as tech. This requires the upgrades to experience before I take on a fight. I've stopped more than one rush cold with 5 or 6 capships, and if I'm in trouble, I turn to the lt frig. cheap!!(no crystal!)

I go for the armor upgrades first without fail. It's good for every ship in your fleet, and if my lt frig can kill 2 lt frigs before it dies, I'm on a winning attrition curve already. Add in the capships and it takes a rush of 60+ ships to really hurt, by that time I've got what I need to defend against it.

Don't ignore your planetary defenses tho. A fully upgrade desert can hold 9 or 10 hangers. Gauss guns are overrated, unless you have 20 or more in a tight cluster and the ai is dumb enough to attack them. A defense in depth(every planet with full tacslots) can give you time to build/recall your main fleet to defend.

A good offense is a good defense, but the best defense is a good defense.

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1. Ship Upgrades (offensive). Thoughts on this? Worth its salt? (e.g. the Illumi Beam Upgrades (to30%))

i allways uppgrade my ships to the max, but it all depends on how u are playing, most ppl say that more ships the better, and thats it true too, so i early game go for the ships and then when time go, recs more offensive uppgrades.

2. Worth paying to upgrade your caps?

Yeah i think so, i play as TEC so all upgrades on my "flagships" is good, but it depends on how u build up a fleet, i never have more then 3 caps in a compelte fleet. And its very often 2 kols and some of the other caps.. not the akkan

3. Many people recommend sending out LFs at the beginnging with cap ship... Why when the cap ship can do the job by itself (colony) and you can save the much needed creds you spent on the LFs on boosting your feeble economy?

Depends it will take u less time to take out the defence on a planet but like u say it can be spend on your econmy, I use a kol when i expand early game and that good for me but we all have our own play style i think u should find yours...

Tips: Later in the game when u have a good eco upgrade all new caps to lvl 4... it will pay of later with "free" exp...

//Klent

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