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stvace

Join Date 08/2008

Issues with 'Expansion' stuff

SINS

When I first purchased Sins I thought it was great. It still is I guess.

Now that this company are bringing out so called 'expansions', I no longer feel the same. These parts of the game should be made available for free, never mind charging people a second and a third time for them!

It appears this game was released unfinished and, thus now, the company is releasing the finishing components.

I am one person who will not be buying this 'expansion' stuff. It is likely many will download it all for free anyway. - I will not be doing this either.

Sins for me has now been assigned to the Sin bin, never to be played again.

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ZubaZ

Join Date 11/2001

+917

It was is a good game.

They added more stuff to make it better.

They want to get paid for making stuff.

BASTARDS!!!

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psychoak

Join Date 07/2007

+225

Out of curiosity, is your game in a bin because you object to expansions in general, or do you just object to having the typical expansion broken up into three parts and sold for the same amount of money in total?

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So... I'm guessing that you think expansions to games should be free and the release of an expansion means the original game was released unfinished?

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Quoting psychoak,

reply 2

Reading his post, it appears that his complaint is that the content of the expansions is the kind of thing that should have been included in the original product, such as a campaign and a diplomacy system that doesn't suck. This is actually a legitimate point as long as he doesn't go on to say that the Seraphim should have been added to Supreme Commander as a patch.

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It's not a legitimate point because that logic can easily be extended to any and every expansion that has ever been released.

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kyogre12

Join Date 07/2008

+100

It is totally unrealistic to assume that a released game will be perfect. I highly doubt that there is a single game in existence that was finished and released exaclty how the developers want it. Either because of time constaints or hardware limits or something else, there is almost always probably going to be something that doesn't make it into the final product. That is what expansions are for. To get all that stuff that they wanted in but couldn't. I like how they are doing the mini-expansions. Now instead of having to wait another year or so for all of the content for all three to be done, we can get part of it sooner. Besides, its a lot better than what Blizzard is doing with Starcraft 2.

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Quoting Annatar11,

reply 5

It's not a legitimate point because that logic can easily be extended to any and every expansion that has ever been released.

That wouldn't be the same logic, however. Most expansions are more along the lines of adding neat new things that the designers hadn't thought of or weren't able to implement the first time around, usually new units, new maps and a second campaign building on the original. His point about these expansions in particular is that they contain components of a game that are so basic it would literally be impossible for the developers to simply not think about it. No one in their right mind would say that the Seraphim should have been included in the original SupCom or that the lack of Dark Templars made Starcraft incomplete. Those require creativity, so it's entirely possible that no one on the design team considered them. That is not so for the micro-expansions (or the last two, at any rate). A campaign is so integral to a game that not including one could not have been anything but a conscious decision. His point is that the release of a campaign (not one building on the first, but an expansion to remedy Sins' conspicuous lack of a story) that requires additional payment indicates that it wasn't a design choice but rather a decision to release an incomplete game so as to charge later for basic components.

I personally disagree: I think it was originally poor design choice, but one that was reevaluated later. Making a campaign isn't cheap, so I can see the justification in charging for it. However, I can understand the other side of this. In this particular case the OP is not being completely unreasonable.

Quoting kyogre12,

reply 6

Besides, its a lot better than what Blizzard is doing with Starcraft 2.

Agreed. I'm not even sure how buying that will work.

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Quoting Annatar11,

reply 5

It's not a legitimate point because that logic can easily be extended to any and every expansion that has ever been released.

This point can't be emphasized enough. Where the hell did this "it should be free because, without it, the game is unfinished" BS come from? stvace, you do realize that IC employees have to be compensated for their work don't you? No one is forcing these expansions on you, you know that right?? Walk into a car dealership. Ask for the base model. Then demand that all of the features of the fully loaded model should be given to you for free, because that is where your 'logic' is leading you. Software is no different, and the sooner people realize this, the better.

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Annatar said it simply although others chimed in.

These people are artists and deserve to get paid when they work. Please stop ranting about the economics of basically every game expansion that's ever been released. The only other reasonable alternative I see other than to not buy games is to put your words into action... design and code a game... market and publish it... then release free expansions for it on your own time.

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A campaign is so integral to a game that not including one could not have been anything but a conscious decision.

You realize that there are many games made without campaigns? And you realize that many Sins players don't even want one? It's far from "integral".

The OP shoots himself in the foot. If he bought the game and enjoyed it and didn't think it was incomplete, how does adding something new to it suddenly make the original release incomplete? That's not logic, and it's not valid and it's not reasonable.

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Ignore the cheap f**ks.

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Quoting Annatar11,

reply 10

You realize that there are many games made without campaigns?

All by design.

Quoting Annatar11,

reply 10

And you realize that many Sins players don't even want one?

And many do. Regardless, causality dictates that the reaction to the lack of campaign can't be the cause for the lack of campaign.

Quoting Annatar11,

reply 10

The OP shoots himself in the foot. If he bought the game and enjoyed it and didn't think it was incomplete, how does adding something new to it suddenly make the original release incomplete?

Quoting Torgamous,

reply 7

His point is that the release of a campaign (not one building on the first, but an expansion to remedy Sins' conspicuous lack of a story) that requires additional payment indicates that it wasn't a design choice but rather a decision to release an incomplete game so as to charge later for basic components.

Quoting wbino,

reply 11

Ignore the cheap f**ks.

Excuse me? I have every intention of buying all three micro-expansions. Explaining and even defending someone else's view is not the same thing as agreeing.

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Excuse me? I have every intention of buying all three micro-expansions. Explaining and even defending someone else's view is not the same thing as agreeing

I think he meant "ignore the trolls", or maybe "dont take the bait".

Obviusly you did take the bait.

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To the Original Poster,

Hhhhm, think of it this way:

SoasE: $30.00 = CHEAP NEW GAME! AND IT ACTUALLY KICKS ASS! WOOT!

SoaSE + Entrenchment: $40.00 = STILL A SEMI CHEAP GAME! NOW EVEN BETTER! HELLZ YEAH!

SoaSE + Entrenchment + Exp 2: $50.00 = A regularly priced (for a brand new) PC game with even MORE content! SICK!

SoaSE + Entrechment + Exp 2 + Exp 3 = $60.00 = Hey, it finally costs about as much as a brand new console game, or new big-name (think Doom, Unreal, etc) PC game, and it has alot more content than most games ship with (not to mention ever have without several years of user-mods). FREAKIN' BEAUTIFUL!

Or... you can mix and match. Don't like starbases (because you prefer offensive maneovering or some such), but absolutely adore diplomacy? Just buy Expansion number two when it pops out and ignore number one. And if you're worried about not being able to play online? I do believe it was mentioned somewhere that the multiplayer will only activate the expansion packs when said expansion pack is shared by all players (on a per expansion pack basis).

Simple fact is... SoaSE was sold very cheaply... at the price of most EXPANSION packs when it launched, yet it was a fully playable well made game that could have easily warranted another $15.00 in price. Other games have launched with less and sold for more - frequently! By the time you have spent $60.00 (the average new console game price), you will have received a base game, with a lot of extended/expanded content, that would probably run you a good $100 - $140 if they had milked the game for profits as much as most games do.

Don't believe me? Let's do some math!

$100 (standard milkage):

$40 for base game +$20(3 expansions) = $40+$60 =$100!

$140 (maximum milkage):

$50 for base game +$30(3 expansions) = $50+$90 =$140!

Instead we have:

$30 + $10(3 expansions) = $30+$30 =$60!

Boo-ya!?!

Still feelin' ripped off? And, yes, SoaSE was relatively cheap to make, and yes... they sold a boatload of copies digitally (*fondly pets his SoaSE box*)... but if you think about it... that doesn't really warrant a lower price. They could have charged alot more for their hard work - and it would have been perfectly warranted. Instead, they sold their fine product at a lower price, and have bent over backwards to make said product accessible, and have dilligently been tweaking the game to provide enhanced performance, better gameplay, and all sorts of stuff for free (they don't have to do that, you know)- oh, and that's NOT including the expansion packs they have been working on.

Grrr, man... just frickin' GRRRRR! I'm tired of seeing IC/SD's SoaSE line get ripped on, when quite frankly it's one of the best things that's happened to PC gaming (and PC Strategy Gaming!) in quite a while. Now if you don't frickin' like it...GTFO.

My $0.02

-Itharus

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It's $10 for each expansion and each one adds alot of content, if $10 is too much for you, you should find a job...

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Quoting Xplodzion,

reply 15

It's $10 for each expansion and each one adds alot of content, if $10 is too much for you, you should find a job...

qft

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Do you people read before posting? The guy doesn't have a problem with money. His problem is this.

Quoting ,

quoting post

It appears this game was released unfinished and, thus now, the company is releasing the finishing components.

He obviously can't react this way every time a game gets an expansion, or he would never play any good games. Therefore, the most reasonable interpretation of this is that he considers a campaign and decent diplomacy system to be basic components that should be included in the original game.

Think about what the guy is saying before posting. Just because he objects to the expansions doesn't always mean he just doesn't want to pay thirty bucks.

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Methinks the OP has been spoiled by Team Fortress 2. I'm baffled as to how that business model is working out for them.

At $40, Sins has already provided more enjoyment than your typical offering. And if you look at the average expansion pack, they usally tally in far in excess of $9.99, usually at least $29.99. So I can't consider sins a ripoff. Yes, I would like to see a campaign system or a more in depth mission creation method, but I guess there's your missing $20 off the retail price, as I would easilly have paid $59.99 for such an offering.

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I think someone has been downloading waaaaaaaay to many mods. Think about it, these expansions are kind of like mods but payware versions of mods. Other moders are doing things like adding new races and stuff for free, but usually these mods are unfinished, unbalanced, unrealistic or unprofessional. Don't get me wrong I love modders and what they do but face it would you rather have a freeware mod or a payware awesome mod. That's all tehse expansions really are, they are just payware awesome mods.

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psychoak

Join Date 07/2007

+225

Modders quite often surpass the original games. Half-life was far outstripped by the modding community, as has been Civ 4, EAW and many more.

The difference isn't quality. It's that one bunch is doing it to feed themselves, and the other because they are insane. There just aren't enough nuts to keep everyone entertained for free.

Edit: Regarding TF2, when you sell millions of copies, you're making tens of millions of dollars. The Valve team could probably do nothing but design free content for HL2, never release another game, and live comfortably at an upper middle class level until dying of natural causes. Of course, I'd rather they keep designing stellar engines, too many shitty ones that are all flash and no performance...

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EAW mods you say... god that game was fun. Ground Combat was terrible though.

The thing is the Mods on hand arent like the HL mods. Those were almost completely different games thanks to heavy, heavy modding. Offerings like TFC and CS 1.6 were a lot more offer than say, Skin Mods, and Weapon Mods.

Methinks I'll have to ponder on something radically different to do with the Iron Engine

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psychoak

Join Date 07/2007

+225

I guess you could call it fun... I'd go more with short lived.

It's hell on the engine(utter piece of shit) but a couple of the more expansive mods seriously increase the limits and scope of the battles. Some of them even go so far as to add in real super capitals that are actually the size of super capitals, instead of the dinky ships they have in the original. It's both fun and irritating, as maneuvering a SSD can be work.

Sins... not sure yet. I'm much too lazy, but there is potential for creating radically different gameplay. Too many things are hardcoded of course, but you can do a hell of a lot more with it than has been done presently, it simply hasn't been done yet. I've contemplated turning it into a serious tactical game, but I am severely lazy. If mitigation could be modified to work differently, I might do it anyway, but fortunately that teaser isn't available...

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Quoting Torgamous,

reply 17

Do you people read before posting? The guy doesn't have a problem with money. His problem is this.

He obviously can't react this way every time a game gets an expansion, or he would never play any good games. Therefore, the most reasonable interpretation of this is that he considers a campaign and decent diplomacy system to be basic components that should be included in the original game.
Think about what the guy is saying before posting. Just because he objects to the expansions doesn't always mean he just doesn't want to pay thirty bucks.

Sorry, but Annatar's point is valid. The OP stated himself that he thought Sins was great. If he bought the game, enjoyed it, and thought it was great, then obviously he figured the game was good as it was. How does that suddenly change and he suddenly decides the game was incomplete because Stardock is now adding expansion content?

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Cant wait for mini expansions tbh

After all its still the best RTS (or RT4X) game out there... Nothing can touch it - not even remotely...

I just wish native OS X (Cider!?) version appears one day and proper competitive claning game modes and scene is finally established...

I also wouldn't mind nice little story and campaign as well

But that all might be part of Sins 2 or something...

Until then expansions will do just fine

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When I first purchased Sins I thought it was great. It still is I guess.

Now that this company are bringing out so called 'expansions', I no longer feel the same. These parts of the game should be made available for free, never mind charging people a second and a third time for them!

It appears this game was released unfinished and, thus now, the company is releasing the finishing components.

I am one person who will not be buying this 'expansion' stuff. It is likely many will download it all for free anyway. - I will not be doing this either.

Sins for me has now been assigned to the Sin bin, never to be played again.

I'm not sure how long you have been buying computer games, but it is VERY common for companies to release expansions when there is a demand for them. The developers don't do it to punish the gamers, they do it because the gamers want more enhancements for the game. While some developers rarely DO accumulate enough wealth to buy a sporty Italian automobile, most of them are just looking for enough money to buy the hotpockets they need to survive long enough to write the next game or expansion. They already used the money from the sale of the game to pay off the credit card debt they racked up making the darn thing.

You also have to look at it from the other perspective....if you don't chip in a little every now and then for these poor developers, what will become of them? In fact, they will be assimiliated into some large company where they will be forced to make things like $7.99 applets for Verizon phones, low mortgage rate pop-up ads, or possibly even new forms of copy protection for EA. Then we all lose.....

So if you actually liked Sins, why deny yourself the expansion?...for the mere price of a Large Coke and a box of Raisinettes at the local movie theater, you can continue to enjoy the Sins universe. And you'll be keeping those developers off the streets, out of the hands of EA, and well stocked with hotpockets so they have a chance, just a chance, of surviving in the wild long enough to create the next great game. If not for you, do it for your community.

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