hoshis are small (only 4 logistics) and very very cheap so its easy to spam a bunch of them. with destructo-bots they have an ability that kinda scales up with number of hoshis as well so having more of them can be useful. thats why you often see TEC fleets that are like 1/3rd hoshikos.

the other support ships just don't require such large numbers to be built. there's not a whole lot of difference in effect between using 6 Overseers and using 20. same is true with Stilakus, the stun bubble is AoE so you only need 3 or 4 of them really to cover the cooldowns. pretty rare to see more than 4-6 Stilakus in a fleet for that reason. they can be hard to notice compared to Hoshis which are just much more likely to show up in large numbers. 

Really? I use them whenever I play Vasari. I was recently smurfed a few times by JJ, and he also made good use of them.

Sure, Hoshis are spammable. But what I've been trying to say is that Hoshis and Overseeers work differently! The nature of the Overseer's ability means that you don't need to have a huge chunk of them, maybe 10 or so. More for a large fleet. That's the same rule I use for Guardians in my Advent fleets (they even use the same number of fleet points).

As for being too hard to use... well... I used to be a hardcore Advent player, so maybe getting my battleball near perfection has had other benefits for me, but is it really that hard to keep your Overseers in a second group a little behind your main fleet? Personally, I think they take about as much micro as flak in most situations (ie: a little bit).

Totally agree. I annoyed him by taking down his high level Marza and Akkan, so I think he wanted some revenge. He just didn't go about it the right way. If memory serves, he quit soon after that because my fleet "wouldn't take any damage."

Really.  I have about 200 games online.  Ironically, the first (and only) time I ever saw overseers was a game tonight.

Yes, I know they work differently.  The point is, the way that overseers work differently also makes them suck, in my humble opinion.  If a TEC player doesn't have to micro shit, and you have to micro out the ass, guess who wins and guess who loses?

Actually, I think a huge chunk of them is the only way to get any to survive.  A small group will always get slaughtered, especially if there are fighers in the grav well (and there always are).  On the other hand, you can't really slaughter the TEC robo-cruisers - there are too many of them, they are relatively tough, they heal each other, they demo-bot you if you get too close, etc.  Basically, they are super-units.  No other support unit really compares.

Subjugators are sex, I use them quite a bit.  The shield heal isn't much but continously  throughout the fight it raises the damage reduction on your frigates and compounds the survivability given by the direct regen

I used to use subverters religiously in single player, but rarely in MP. I did find use for them a couple of patches back in helping to bust up a LRM spam (80-90 ships) with my carriers, but I think a little better range on distortion field may bring them back to a more common use.

Not sure if they've changed them significantly since then, but as I recall they have to sit to cast it, like Missile Barrage, leaving them vulnerable to destruction. Good idea, but maybe balance that out by allowing them to do that in grav phase jump from much further away. Correct me if I'm wrong but I beleive the current range is inside that of most LRMs.

I definetly agree with how on the regen platforms. Having a longer duration makes it a more passive heal, which is not very useful in battle. It should be boosted to 20, at least then it would only be the worst after TEC repair bot upgrades. Instead of just being the worst all the time.

2¢

The biggest issue with them is the nerf they got that meant you need a lot more AM. It used to be possible to have them stop a whole fleet. Now with the carriers, they may stop some ships for a short time, but the fighters kill them and they cannot lock a section of the map down like they used to for an extended period....

Decided to comment again, responding to original post.

-Overpowered.  You can't be serious...?  And how does that fix it?  It makes no sense from any standpoint to give the Vasari stacking repair bays but no one else, and it makes barely more sense to give everyone stacking repair bays, if only because then they're all on equal footing.

-To 20, sure.  To 40, no.  I'm not sure what the lore reason for the researchable upgrade might turn out to be, if any, but in any case I'd be against it being 20 by default (i.e. without research to increase it) on principle simply because that's where the Advent are at, and the Vasari duration is longer, so at the same repair rate, it would wind up being better, which does not appear to have been the goal.

-This one I don't dislike, but as has already been pointed out, the AM rechargers that Advent gets can't recharge the repair bays, so the reasoning behind it isn't as solid.

I've updated the post.  I revised idea #3 as it doesn't fix the root of the problem, low health restore.  It still doesn't but at least is something better.

Um, well, it would cost both research cost and additional tactical slots to get a stacking affect.  In addition, even 2 stacked still equals Advent and less than TEC fully teched up.  Heck, with Horoshikos, you would need 4 Vasari repair bays stacking to get the same level of repair as TEC get.

So some people are scared of a little micro. Doesn't make them bad units. Vasari ships are tough in general, so they can get away without any healing ships. Particularly if a Skirantra is added in.

I'm glad you have so many games online. I've been playing online since 1.03. I agree that not many people use Overseers, but that doesn't make them bad units by any stretch of the imagination. Popular != good.

First, Overseers don't require obscene amounts of micro. Set them on hold position, turn off autoattack, and keep them within range of your units that are taking fire. It really isn't that much work.

Second, even though the TEC player doesn't have to micro his repair and I do, I don't mind because my repair ships are better healers than his. Mid or late game, his caps WILL die and mine will NOT. Grav bomb + nano bomb + FF = dead Marza, Kol, or anything else for that matter. Hoshis will NOT keep anything alive against my fleet's FF. My Overseers, on the other hand, will. Not just caps, either, but also my HCs with their high HP, armor, and reintegration (and repair cloud, if I happen to have it).

Fighters do 50% damage to support cruisers - the same they do to LFs. Camp some flak near your Overseers if you're having trouble with enemy fighters. By the time the fecal matter really hits the fan, you should have a Kortul with lvl 3 jam weapons, and your own fighter cover. If he wants to have his fighters charge into a pack of flak while their weapons are jammed and your own fighters are hot on their tail - by all means, let him.

The autocast for demo bots isn't all that great, so they're not going to be totally shutting down your fleet. If you've got a fleet composed entirely of HCs, say 30 or 40, and he has twice as many Hoshis, then you get what you deserve. He scouted and planned ahead, and you didn't. Keep some skirmishers handy, and get interference. If you're really having trouble with his Hoshis, add in a few Subverters, and keep them protected.

Hoshis are good for generally keeping your fleet alive. They're cheap, have decent repair, and can be upgraded with demo bot. You can tell them to stick with the group and they'll pretty much do their thing. Overseers are a bit more specialized and require more work - but the results are better. Focused fire is the name of the game, and Overseers are much better at dealing with it than Hoshis are.

You missed my point.  The point wasn't to brag about how many games I have online.  There are many people who have far, far more, and either way its not important.  The point was simply to qualify the statement "I've never seen anyone use overseers online - NEVER."  Well, how much is that statement worth when you hear it?  If I'm a newb with 3 games online, it isn't worth much.  If I'm a guy with over 200 games online, it's worth more.  That was the point.  Now, if you have just as many games as me (or more), and you see tons of overseers online, well that's fine too, and you should believe your own experience over mine.  But I'd bet in vegas that if I took a poll, most people don't see too many overseers online.

I disagree.  People use units which are good, and shun units which suck.  That's why you see tons of space whales and Marza's online, and above all, tons and tons and tons and tons of carriers.  You see tons of hoshikos online.  You see lrf, and heavy cruisers.  All of those units are good, you see.  The one thing you don't see are overseers, because they suck.

Popular = good.

Oh, you make it sound easy enough and all.  "Just do this, just do that."  Perhaps you are a pro, and perhaps it really is easy to you.  It's not easy to the non-pro, and the non-pros are the majority.  Units which cater to pros, and not non-pros, suck.

Flak?  Notice that the TEC player doesn't have to build and micro yet ANOTHER unit - flak - to keep his non-micro'd hoshis alive.  You are saying Vasari does.  So that's two units I must micro to pull all of this off.

And by the way, Kortul with jam weapons sucks too.

LOL - so now we are up to 3 units to micro?  I've seen about as many subverters used online as I've seen overseers.  I've tried them many times myself.  They die like flies, and they all jump to disable the same enemy unit if left on autocast (and half the time it is something like a trade drone).  Manually casting them is ridiculous - nobody can do it in a real game except a pro.  Subs are probably more useless in a real game than overseers.  In short, subverters suck too.

Actuly no overseers are damned powerfull. Hell when if they would be used rigth and regulerly they might be OP in some ways. How ever in this game like many otehr games people value and gage units on their individual power. Were as SINS is a game that isn't about uber units (what people understand) but about synergies between units (what 90% of people don't understand) Only reason you see hoshikos more then otehr cruisers is simpyl because without em no TEC fleet would be bale to stand up to a vasary or advent fleet and also because it was used alot and hsowed to people alot int he pass that hoshikos work. If peple wouldnt have seen hoshikos work int he pass they wouldnt be using them now today and everyone would be whining about how TEC is so weak. Carriers get spamed lots because people see them as an under unit, I had so many carrier spammers rage quit on me because i was wiping the floor with his so called uber fleet it aint funny. Hell I even told them when they jumped int hat i would clean their clocks and their reply was always alogn the line: No way your retard your the one who's gonna get @$$ ownd. Well i was right and they were very wrong.

That beign said repair bays for vasary have low repair amoutn because their meant to be used in sinergy with overseers. I would also add that overseers have the higest repair rate then anythign else. Why because it's and instant 250 hp multipled but the number of overseers you have. As long ha syou ahve AM the enemy can focus fire your cap and you can keep it alive. How long can you kee that cap alive depends on the number of overseers you have. The more you ahve the longer you can stay. If you have enougth you can stay and tank indefinately.

While so true, you usually lose a cap or two before their bombers are depeleted.  Poor lvl 9 egg

Unfortunately, the overseer requires a lot of AM, so, like you said, you need a lot of them if you expect the fight to drag on.

Indeed that is why you need a certain critical mass in order to have sufficient endurance in large long battle, AM tech upgrade also help alot.. That number would be something from 15 to 20 would be respectable. While 5 to 10 is a decent number for smalla nd short engagements.

For long and big battle you would also want to add in subverters as well about 20 again. 10 on sheild disruption and 10 on distortion field. And of course the more micro you can do the stronger they will make your fleet. But havign 20 with 10 doing each one thing only it limits the need for micro by a huge leap.

Eh...only if you are playing someone who isn't spamming carriers.  Subverters are near worthess against a carrier fleet, except if the player is kiting them around the grav well.

Agent of Karma,

I see what our discussion is really about now. It's more about the amount of micro required to get an acceptable level of performance from a given unit, rather than the Overseer in particular. I have written this response with that in mind.

People use units which are both powerful and easy to use. You see to many Marzas because all they have to do is wait till the enemy is in the big blue circle, and then click the button. If a unit is poweful and easy to use, people will definitely use it. If a unit is very powerful, but complicated to use, most people will bring themselves to learn it anyway. Other units, which don't immediately appear as powerful, get shunned. Simply because the Overseer is hard to use does not mean it sucks. The benefits outweigh the costs. Overseers are excellent at keeping your fleet alive, even in late game FF situations, where the other repair cruisers falter.

So basically, easy + powerful = popular.

No, I'm not a pro. I win most of my games online, but my skill level isn't on par with the "all-star" players.

There are many levels to this game, which is what gives it a lot of appeal. Sure, if you want to, you can jump your whole fleet to an enemy grav well with everything on autcast, and then sit back and watch the fireworks. That's not the most effecient way to use your resources, but it's certainly one option.

My point is that you *don't* have to micro your Overseers. They'll still heal your other ships. No, they won't do as well as hoshis. That's because their ability works differently. If you want the most mileage out of them, you need to use some micro.

I beg to differ. There are three races to choose from, and a variety of strategies available to each race. If you want to play Vasari without using Overseers, you can get away with it most of the time. But you can make better use of your resources by keeping your ships alive longer (especially those nice high level caps). Learning how to micro a particular unit is just one step in improving your game. Things like empire management, fleet composition, and a strategic sense are also important to improving your game. And if you're playing against one of the "pros", then your game needs to be as good as possible.

Overseers can be considered a more "advanced" unit in terms of ease-of-use than the hoshi. If they were just as easy to use (ie: 360* ability arc), their ability would require a nerf to maintain balance. Probably changing it entirely to restore a certain HP/SEC like all the other repair abilities. This would dilute the differences between the races, and take another element of "skill" out of the game. Do this enough times, and the game becomes bland.

One of the things I about Sins is the multiple levels you can play on. You can play against a normal AI in SP, build some ships, send them in, and enjoy the fireworks. That's all some people want, and it's there for them. Some people like to add that personal touch and micro their caps a bit. They do a little better than the guy enjoying the fireworks, and they take pleasure in timing that flak burst just right. I want to get into the nitty-gritty and get as much out of my fleet as possible, and that's there for me. I can tell my ships when to move, when to attack, what to shoot, when to use which ability, and etc. Take that away and you're taking out a big part of the game.

Because I prefer more micro than less, by your same logic, I could say, "units that don't need micro suck and are noobish." I'm sure you'd disagree with this statement, and I do too. The differing amounts of micro required to use each of the units in this game doesn't mean that an individual units "sucks," whether the amount of micro be higher or lower than the average.

The rest of this stuff is more detail-oriented than is really nessesary, but I enjoy a nice debate.

If my enemy has carriers, I have flak. That's a rule of thumb that only makes sense. If the TEC guy doesn't want to build flak, that's his loss. I hope has flak burst to fall back on, because if not, I will definitely have air superiority. Once I have air superiority, my fighters will kill off his hoshis, and that's the end of that.

As Vasari, I don't *have* to build flak, just as the TEC player doesn't. But that means I have to rely on cap abilities to gain air superiority, which is a bit of a shakier prospect.

Again, you don't have to micro the flak if you don't want to. You get more mileage out of them with micro. I haven't really found non-micro'd flak to be that useful, so I make a point to keep an eye on them.

It's certainly the least poweful of the "big 3" anti-SC cap abilities, but it certainly doesn't suck. It's indirect, and can be kept up as long as the Kortul has antimatter (30 sec duration/15 sec cooldown off the top of my head). It's helpful in general, and lovely when fighting a carrier-heavy fleet. It's basically like giving all your SC a free pass to harass the enemy fleet for as long as you want it (and have antimatter). Forget the enemy's SC - let your sentinels deal with them. Send your fighters against his carriers or support cruisers. As long as you keep jam weapons going, your SC are free to deal with other concerns.

No, you don't need subs just like you don't need to micro your Overseers. I'm specifying options. They're a pretty effective counter, too. What good do 30+ hoshis do if they're all locked down for a significant portion of the battle. In addition, since most TEC players don't micro their hoshis, that puts them in the middle of his fleet. Which means that his combat ships are getting stunned too, reducing his DPS and repair rate at the same time.

Another case of a complicated-to-use-unit being shunned by people who don't want to learn it, I fear. I usually don't use them because I don't need them. If I end up fighting another skilled player late in the game, however, you can bet that I'll be bringing out subs in force.

They have the same type of armor as other support cruisers. They're not too expensive (particularly for a late-game economy), and are only 5 fleet supply. Build a bunch if your enemy is targetting them. Fly them in circles around his fleet. Put them in the middle of your flak. Distortion field isn't the only way to disrupt his fleet.

As for distortion field itself, that's an ability that I never leave on autocast. You're right about the autocast AI leaving a lot to be desired with this ability. Stunning random frigs that have wandered away from the enemy fleet is a prime example of why I micro this one. Plus it costs so much antimatter - you don't get many shots, so you have to make them count.

It's another thing to micro. You have to figure out how to best apply them - that is, if you even want to use them at all.

Being able to selectively lock down portions of the enemy fleet is definitely not useless. It's a tough unit to use effectively - no argument there. But by being such, it adds depth to the game.

I disagree, for the reasons stated above.

Read this from Howdidudothat (this thread above):

He is considered "pro."  That doesn't mean you can't disagree with him (or me).  It just means its something to weigh.

I have not been able to field subverters in an enemy grav well when there are fighters present (which is all the time).  They get slaughtered by enemy fighers instantly.  Now, I'm not going to put words in Howdidudothat's mouth, but he seems to be insinuating the same thing, because he references carriers.

In a real game, I don't know how anyone that isn't an octopus can micromanage subs, overseers, flak, caps, and everything else all in the same battle.  If you say you can do it, my hat's off to you.  As for everyone else (me included), there really does need to be some better "player assist" AI.

A few off-the-cuff retorts to things I didn't respond to earlier.  I played a guy once who did nothing but spam tons of carriers and robo-cruisers, in about a 50/50 ratio.  Yup, you heard me correctly - carriers and robo-cruisers.  I was vasari at the time.  I licked my lips, salivating at the supposed slaughter I was apparently due, because anyone would say "just build tons of skirmishers," and that's what I did.  I sent my skirmishers in, and they outnumbered his fleet.  My skirmishers got demo-botted, and he won.  He just laughed.  He really had to do nothing but sit there and pick his nose, watching the "battle."  That should say somthing about the power of not having to micro jack crap, while the other guy has to micro his ass off.

A question:  If you could play yourself (so each of you are identical in skill), and one of you chose the least micro-intensive race (arguably TEC), and one of you chose vasari with the strat of building overseers, subverters, blah blah, who do you think would win?  Self #1, or self #2?

And to Howdidudothat, I apologize if he feels we have hijacked his thread.

I agree. However, I wasn't talking about countering carrier spam, I was talking about countering solid mixed fleet.

I don't micro every single aspect of every ship. Each type of frig and cruiser requires its own special amount of micro. Flak are easy, just set them to "hold position" and camp them in the middle of where ever the enemy is concentrating with his fighters. Subs and Overseers are ships that need to be kept on a leash. I turn off auto attack on the Overseers so they don't wander off, and keep them behind my main fleet. Leave their heal ability on autocast and they'll heal your fleet while you're doing other things. If you notice the enemy FFing one of your caps, select the Overseers and tell them all to use reactive armor on the cap (alt + click, then q and tab repeatedly). Subs that I want to use for stun get their autoattack turned off, as well as autocast for both abilities. Unless I have a whole ton of subs, I'll do this will all of them, as stun is a very useful ability, but very costly AM-wise. Then, keep them near your combat ships and facing the enemy. Stun as needed. Overseers can heal them too, and they're inside the jam weapons radius of your Kortul. Their shield-damaging ability (forget what it's called) I don't normally use, unless FFing a cap. Capital abilities are used as needed. That's really all there is to my micro (in a general battle, other details for special occasions of course).

Well, against anyone spamming carriers, I build at least some flak. Build enough flak and keep them right on top of your Skirmishers, and the hoshis will demo bot both flak and LF. Hoshis and sentinels are both cheap (hoshis a bit cheaper, iirc), and they both use little supply. You should be able to get about as many flak as he has hoshis. You should also be able to get about 1.5 LF per carrier. Put it all in a ball together and there are too many ships for the hoshis to demo bot. Get interference, and the hoshis won't be able to use their abilities nearly as often. Now if you have a bit more econ than he does, you could add in some of your own fighter squads and really turn things nasty for him, or some HCs even. It's kind of a roundabout way to counter that tactic, but it's a silly tactic to begin with, imo.

As a side note, if you get reintegration for your skirmishers, that will prolong their lifespan greatly in that particular situation. The amount of flak you have should slaughter his fighters. That just leaves the hoshis with their measly 4 (or 5?) laser damage against your skirmishers with their 11 (?) pulse gun damage and 150% damage modifier vs heavy armor.

Honestly, it depends on which me has the better start, and who gets lucky.

Sometimes that's just how it happens. I remember a game I had not too long ago where I (Vasari) was matched up against a solid player (Jbaum, TEC) in a 2v2. He had a better start by far (4 roids and a terran), whereas I had 1 roid, and 2 3-roid ice worlds. I had a scout doing recon, and saw that he hadn't colonized the roid farthest away from his start yet. I was hoping to grab it and get a beach head, so I jumped my egg and 10 or so assailants down to clean it out. His marza and a few cobalts had just finished clearing the roid. My ships jumped in literally right on top of his, and on the far side of the grav well from his planets. I had already gotten the first 3 phase missile techs, and had nano bomb at level 2. His marza died before he could get it out, and he had to play defensive for the next 45 minutes or so it took me to grind him down.

So my point is, that when skill level is roughly matched, sheer dumb luck can play a role.

That said, I play TEC the least, so I'm not very practiced with their more advanced tactics.

Heh, yeah, we have kind of turned this into our own little debate about the merits of Vasari units and the need for micro in general.

I don't care much. 

Well, considering I was the one that pointed out that with the changes to the subverter post v1.05, the subverter's role would be greatly diminished, I don't mind saying that I think the nerf was too drastic for such a thinly armored unit.  I still use if from time to time, but only if I know the other guy has a bunch of HCs/Illums that need locked down.  however, in my experience in MP, I usually jsut see carriers, and so therefore I really don't build subverters because 1) they won't last long against a skilled player who will assign his SC against them 2) you only need subverters to take out the carriers, and that is a rather simple process once you have air supperiority even without the subverters. 

1. As far as advent repair stations go; they are level 2 tech, not level 1. Kep that in mind.

2. Yes, the AM recharger cannot target structures, but, guess what? it can target frigates. and a certain frigate can share its AM out...

Overseers already provide the boost to armor. Maybe a slight rate upgrade, or maybe an ability that reduces the AM required to cast repair from an overseer (and repair on a carrier cap too I guess).

Say from 75 to 60? Would allow for every 5th cast to be free compared to outside of the repair range...

Perhaps.  I guess my biggest gripe is that you have to go all the way to tech level 4 to get really nice repair rates.  Doesn't really help you early game.  Also, Advent and TEC have great AM support abilites.  Vasari doesn't.

Ok I got an idea, a secondary ability for the repair structure that works like an overseer. Basically a burst of nanites that repair a set amount fo damage, maybe 150 (lvl1) 300(lvl2), and buff armor for a bit.  This ability would not use AM but it would have like a minute cooldown.  With 300 hull repaired that would be equivelent to additional 5 repair / second.  This abiltiy would have to be researched, at tier 2 or 3 with 2 levels available for research.

I think what might be cool would be just a passive repair ability that could be teched up.  Perhaps a 5 hp/sec repair for all units within range?

Sounds far too powerful.  No-cost decent repair ability for all ships nearby?  No thanks.