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NEW Patch Stat Changes Forums [NEW TOPIC: CAPITAL SHIPS!! 1/2/10]

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Deceiver_0
MindsEye
Join Date 05/2008
+7
Reply #776 February 3, 2010 2:00:41 PM
from Sins of a Solar Empire ForumsSins of a Solar Empire Forums

(phase stabilizer, right! Ever saw THAT in a serious game?)

Ya I used it on a sb i sneaked thru past a heavily defended planet while he tried to repel me from attacking it.Then I jumped straight past it to my sb and started killin all his worlds.It was pretty effective.

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Deceiver_0
Kitkun
Join Date 06/2008
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Reply #777 February 3, 2010 2:11:06 PM
from Sins of a Solar Empire ForumsSins of a Solar Empire Forums

Oi, I think you might have mixed some numbers up, N3rull. Anti-Module deals 25% to Light, 50% to Medium, 75% to Heavy, 100% to Cap and V.Heavy, and 200% to Module. 328 damage per bank, 9 second cooldown.

So Desint DPS vs Light is ~9.1, Medium is ~18.2, Heavy is ~27.3, Cap and V.Heavy is ~36.4, and against Module is ~72.9. (Before upgrades)

 

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Deceiver_0
Deceiver_0
Join Date 12/2008
+42
Reply #778 February 3, 2010 3:00:36 PM
from Sins of a Solar Empire ForumsSins of a Solar Empire Forums

Orkies do dmg like starfish but they dont have the advantage of range. Even a fully upgraded Orky can have trouble cracking a defensive cluster with a fully upgraded TEC or Advent Starbase. It also kinda sucks that to fully upgrade HP and Weapons on the orky takes up 7 upgrade slots, leaving only 1 left for debris vortex or frontal shielding. Yeah Orkies are tough as nails, but are still easily overwhelmed by large fleets. One wouldnt dare send a fleet up against a fully upped TEC or Advent SB, and yet when you're fleet reaches a certain size, a Vasari SB even fully upped is not much of a threat, especially for fleets made primarily of LRFS. Maybe the illum nerf will change that dynamic a bit cuz in practice, massive illuminator fleets that quickly double in size with illusions have the easiest time taking down my fully upped Orkies, because the fake illuminators make losses negligible. Though I don't think the Orkulus needs much buffing at all, I do lean towards doing more damage to LRFs.

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Kitkun
Join Date 06/2008
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Reply #779 February 3, 2010 3:12:32 PM
from Sins of a Solar Empire ForumsSins of a Solar Empire Forums

Pulse Guns to Composite would be nice.

 

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Warlord Mike
Join Date 05/2009
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Reply #780 February 3, 2010 3:32:06 PM
from Sins of a Solar Empire ForumsSins of a Solar Empire Forums

Quoting Deceiver_0,
reply 778
Maybe the illum nerf will change that dynamic a bit cuz in practice, massive illuminator fleets that quickly double in size with illusions have the easiest time taking down my fully upped Orkies, because the fake illuminators make losses negligible.

This.  THIS.  A THOUSAND TIMES, THIS!!!

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Deceiver_0
N3rull
Join Date 10/2008
+42
Reply #781 February 3, 2010 3:37:55 PM
from Sins of a Solar Empire ForumsSins of a Solar Empire Forums

Oi, I think you might have mixed some numbers up, N3rull. Anti-Module deals 25% to Light, 50% to Medium, 75% to Heavy, 100% to Cap and V.Heavy, and 200% to Module. 328 damage per bank, 9 second cooldown.

So Desint DPS vs Light is ~9.1, Medium is ~18.2, Heavy is ~27.3, Cap and V.Heavy is ~36.4, and against Module is ~72.9. (Before upgrades)
No, my numbers are fine (double checked). The damage is per bank. Full DPS is stated as 73 (or is that wrong?), divided by 4 gives dps per bank. Then all the modifiers are applied as they should.

It does not matter if I take the per bank DPS or the full one. It doesn't matter if I divide it by 15 or by ∏e², it is the proportions between what an argonev/trancy does to what an orky does.

I still believe that an orky should not take 3 offensive + 4 defensive upgrades + all warfare reseach done to be a comparable threat to a half-developed transcencia.
Orky does one thing and one thing only, and that is fighting. As it is, it does it worse than the two other SBs which have a ton of other applications. It also should be a structure buster but the total damage done to structures is only slightly higher than the total damage any other SB does (to that orky). It takes a fully developed Orky to challenge a half developed argo/transy ... that takes time and tons of resources better spent on bombers.
Oh, and it deals very nice damage to carriers which it is never going to catch.

Ya I used it on a sb i sneaked thru past a heavily defended planet while he tried to repel me from attacking it.Then I jumped straight past it to my sb and started killin all his worlds.It was pretty effective.

Right, sure. I can bet that this was only an effective mop up, because if you had the money and time to play around with phase stabilizers (labs, research and all that) and - lol - sneaked a starbase - lol! - past his defended world, then I suppose that guy was already done anyway. Either because you've already owned him and just found a visually-effective way to finish the job or because he was drunk.

Sneaked a starbase... lol.

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Deceiver_0
Deceiver_0
Join Date 12/2008
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Reply #782 February 3, 2010 3:46:38 PM
from Sins of a Solar Empire ForumsSins of a Solar Empire Forums

Does anyone think it would be to much to ask to update RA and Insurgency for entrenchment. Maybe get an ogrov every now in then in the rebel forces, or maybe receive a migrator or ruiner once in while from RA. I know its not much of an issue, but I feel like those two abilities are kinda stuck in Vanilla sins.

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Deceiver_0
Warlord Mike
Join Date 05/2009
+3
Reply #783 February 3, 2010 3:49:08 PM
from Sins of a Solar Empire ForumsSins of a Solar Empire Forums

Quoting Deceiver_0,
reply 782
Does anyone think it would be to much to ask to update RA and Insurgency for entrenchment. Maybe get an ogrov every now in then in the rebel forces, or maybe receive a migrator or ruiner once in while from RA. I know its not much of an issue, but I feel like those two abilities are kinda stuck in Vanilla sins.

I dunno if it's NECESSARY, per se, but I wouldn't mind the changes, to be sure.  I'd consider it if the topic came up.

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Arthanis
Join Date 09/2009
+3
Reply #784 February 3, 2010 3:52:36 PM
from Sins of a Solar Empire ForumsSins of a Solar Empire Forums

I thought all Orkulus disadvanatges to other space stations are justified by it's mobility.

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Deceiver_0
N3rull
Join Date 10/2008
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Reply #785 February 3, 2010 3:54:00 PM
from Sins of a Solar Empire ForumsSins of a Solar Empire Forums

The forces themselves might be a little stronger, but an ogrov would be too badass. A single ogrov can four-shot most structures. You'd find your backyard worlds cleaned before you finished your "what the f-word?".

I thought all Orkulus disadvanatges to other space stations are justified by it's mobility.
Being mobile is an asset, that's for sure. But still... should the orky lose all AOE abilities, all fleet support capability and its combat prowess to being mobile? Would you trade your pimped out crib for a latrine on wheels just because it can be moved?
Sure, transcencia has meteors, Argo has its boons and whatnot, Orky has its engines. Fine. There must be some tradeoff here and it must be good - and so Transcencia can disable enemy ships and blast them for 750 damage every 30 seconds plus its normal damage and has more strikecraft and can bombard planets and spread culture, while the Orky can fly. I'm fine with that. 
But should it also be the weakest starbase combat-wise unless you pay extra 5500 credits and a heap of resources to fill its last upgrade slots with guns and armor? So that you end up with a flying and shooting brick that has ABSOLUTELY no use beyond that and FINALLY as good as other SBs in combat? A brick that brings zero profit and can be just skipped like mr. Mindseye said he did?

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Ryat
Join Date 06/2006
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Reply #786 February 3, 2010 3:57:28 PM
from Sins of a Solar Empire ForumsSins of a Solar Empire Forums

actually I have seen ogrovs being used in Insurgency

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Greyfox2
Join Date 01/2009
+14
Reply #787 February 3, 2010 3:57:56 PM
from Sins of a Solar Empire ForumsSins of a Solar Empire Forums

Granted fake illums can decrease the amount of dps to real ones for lack of targeting with each individual weapon but SB can target stuff.  It is easy to tell the difference between real and fake.  The fakes only last 2 minutes out of 3 minutes anyways and in that minute every illum is real and receiving fire.  The thing is though that half of the illums damage is in side beams(50% front and 25% for each side) and they dont use side beams when fighting a SB.  Plus frontal shield decreases by 100% and 200% for its levels(presumeably half and quarter damage respectively).  If you move half your fleet to the other side to avoid frontal shield then you have increased the orky's own dps by more banks firing.  Personally I won't touch a orkulus with even 2 or 3 upgrades unless i have 40+ illums and a decent progen with guardians and thats with little to no supporting fleet along with it.  It is bombers all the way or push through to another system.  It doesn't need range although the range is decent because it can move.  Ever try killing an orkulus with starfish?  It doesn't work.  It can just run them over and that buttload of resources you spent on an anti-structure fleet is just more hp for debris vortex.  Ogrovs do ok but still it requires microing them out of range when the orky comes charging and you will still lose some ogrovs.  Antistructure units are underwhelming anyways even after their cost was decreased.

 

[_]-Greyfox

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N3rull
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Reply #788 February 3, 2010 4:17:09 PM
from Sins of a Solar Empire ForumsSins of a Solar Empire Forums

Plus frontal shield decreases by 100% and 200% for its levels(presumeably half and quarter damage respectively)
that's true, but you didn't notice duration/cooldown. On the first level, frontal shields work for 45 seconds with a 90 second cooldown. So, it's 50% real damage reduction for half of the time, meaning 25% sustained damage reduction.
On level 2 it works for 60 seconds with a 90 sec cooldown which makes it a little better (66% real damage reduction working 66% of the time, so a total of ~44% sustained damage reduction - still not quarter ), HOWEVER:
- that is TWO upgrade slots byebye. Either you miss out the fourth defense or third offense upgrade - either your orky is not tough as nails or it has less firepower than other SBs.
- this is tier 5 research, illums aren't
- it take 4500 creds to make it 2/2 frontal shields and this alone grants no armor, no health, no healing and no damage.
- regardless of how little damage you take during those 45/60 seconds (if the enemy is stupid enough to pound on the frontal shield that is), there is still the remaining 45/30 seconds, during which a sensible fleet can pretty much annihilate a non-4/4-defensive Orky. I've seen 50 Kodis wipe a 3 def Orky in 30 seconds. Frontal shield wouldn't help too much.

I am quite sure that 2/2 frontal shields did not work 60duration-90cooldown before. I'm sure it was 60/120. Never mind, it's still 2 upgrade slots on a brick that takes 3 offense, 3 defense and debris vortex to be able to survive any serious battle. Error.

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Deceiver_0
-Ue_Carbon
Join Date 07/2008
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Reply #789 February 3, 2010 4:32:36 PM
from Sins of a Solar Empire ForumsSins of a Solar Empire Forums

Decevier_0,

 

You gonna fire up the next version of this topic for 1.06? I would assume most of our suggestions would carry over since the new patch didnt change to many of our suggestions.

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Greyfox2
Join Date 01/2009
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Reply #790 February 3, 2010 5:01:44 PM
from Sins of a Solar Empire ForumsSins of a Solar Empire Forums

50 kodiaks is a lot more focused firepower and a lot more resources than a 3 defense orkulus.  Should it be surprising to you that 3 upgrade SB should die to a 500 supply in just HC fleet that took a LOT more resources and time to build?  50 HC is what an orkulus killing fleet should consist of if you are going to do it conventionally rather than bombers.  One would hope you would at least have subverters to stop them if the enemy has 50 kodiaks against you rather than bank on a half upgraded SB.  Frontal shields would negate half figuratively from doing anything when active so it may not have any stored hit points but it can decrease the amount you receive which can mean a lot.  25 percent averaged out for level 1 is still a lot of damage intercepted.  Could you imagine something having the equivalent of 80+ percent shield mitigation and tell me how much of a bitch that is to kill?  Ohhh thats right....thats the orkulus with frontal shields.

 

[_]-Greyfox

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Deceiver_0
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Reply #791 February 3, 2010 5:20:47 PM
from Sins of a Solar Empire ForumsSins of a Solar Empire Forums

I will probably start a new one, but not until after the next one is released. We need to take a good look at how the gameplay changes with the patch before we can draw any conclusions. But yeah, Im think some of the topics (particularly Cap ships) will carry over.

Grey- Your right starfish are garbage against Orkies, Ogrovs, not so much. Without frontal shield you can take down a fully upped Orky with 15-20 Ogrovs without losing too many of them. And if there are hoshis involved, well you probably wont lose any. And 40 illums supported by a progen is way easy to come by (in fact I see this kind of fleet in almost every game I play in MP). And with the progen and illusions losses would be minimal. Yes it is easy to tell the difference between real and fake, but you cant target ships individually with weapons banks. You tell the Orky to attack one ship, it still uses its other banks to fire on other ships, regardless of what ship they are (real or not). SO with illusions, much of the Orkies firepower can be neutralized, any where from 0% to 100% (more likely 50%+). The real bummer to me is that illusions are effected by all abilities (icluding shield restore and shield projections), they just dont do any damage. Its kinda like spawning a bunch of defense vessels out of nowhere for meat shielding. I know I use flak frequently against illuminators to absorb damage, but the damn illuminators can just freely double their numbers to take damage, minimal cost for a huge gain.

I've always though illusions were way OP for such a high HP/Shield unit. In small numbers its not that bad, but when do you ever see small numbers of illums in MP? And I know you'll say the fake ones are easy to spot, but where as Illuminators are not micro intensive at all, in order for another race to overcome the doubling of the fleets hp, you have to micro your pants off. That just seems horribly unfair to me. When you can take your fleet of 60 illums, and make 60 more ships from thin air that you don't care whether or not you lose (because theyre almost completely free), that just seems a bit on the OP side. Now I know theres really no good, easy way to fix it, but it tends to make any points for the illuminator invalid in my eyes. You know they say that Skirms and Enforcers lack of dmg for their cost is to balance their ability to reintegrate, but I see no balance in the illuminators stats for their illusion ability.

Back to my original point about Orkies vs Illuminators- At least the losses to fleets charging the Orky from Vasari or TEC will take losses that cost money, that have an impact on their fleet and their economy, but when illusions are absolutely free, and can have their shields restored, and a 3rd of the damage to them redirected, losses to illuminator fleets have very little impact on the fleet itself or the advent economy. 60 Ilums with illusions will shred an Orky (frontal shield or debris vortex or not), where as against a TRans or Argonev, you woulndt dare send them to destroy it. I might add that I dont believe fake illuminators leave debris for debris vortex to swallow. So im definitely for a buff to LRF damage on the orkies.

N3rull- OK well I get that the duration is different, but what exactly is the point of having 200% damage reduction? Does that possibly overcome abilities like designate target?

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N3rull
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Reply #792 February 3, 2010 5:39:02 PM
from Sins of a Solar Empire ForumsSins of a Solar Empire Forums

Could you imagine something having the equivalent of 80+ percent shield mitigation and tell me how much of a bitch that is to kill? Ohhh thats right....thats the orkulus with frontal shields.
Could you imagine kiting such a thing for 60 seconds and then wiping it out in 30 seconds without having to worry about no frontal shields?
Ohhh thats right....thats the orkulus with frontal shields on cooldown.

Also remember that when have 2/2 frontal shields and 4 def (so as to stop that kodi fleet from rotflmao wiping that orky), you can only put on measly 2 off upgrades AND THAT ORKY WILL DO 30% (!!) LESS DAMAGE TO THOSE KODIS THAN AN ARGONEV WITH 2 OFFENSIVE UPS.
Bah, a transy would wipe that fleet. But that orky has no chances. Yay orky.

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Arthanis
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Reply #793 February 3, 2010 5:59:29 PM
from Sins of a Solar Empire ForumsSins of a Solar Empire Forums

Idea: What if we increase Okulus upgrade slots to 10?

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Warlord Mike
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Reply #794 February 3, 2010 6:25:36 PM
from Sins of a Solar Empire ForumsSins of a Solar Empire Forums

Quoting Arthanis,
reply 793
Idea: What if we increase Okulus upgrade slots to 10?

I likes this idea, along with the other suggestions mentioned.

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Deceiver_0
Deceiver_0
Join Date 12/2008
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Reply #795 February 3, 2010 6:25:29 PM
from Sins of a Solar Empire ForumsSins of a Solar Empire Forums

i don't see that going over well. I think id rather have disintegrators do some significant splash damage on the third upgrade. They fire slow as hell anyway.

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Warlord Mike
Join Date 05/2009
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Reply #796 February 3, 2010 6:26:59 PM
from Sins of a Solar Empire ForumsSins of a Solar Empire Forums

On another note, how did my post, being seven seconds AFTER Deciever's, come FIRST?

My GOD!  I must have discovered the secret to time travel!

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Greyfox2
Join Date 01/2009
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Reply #797 February 3, 2010 6:46:24 PM
from Sins of a Solar Empire ForumsSins of a Solar Empire Forums

Microing counting for illusions is as easy as using the empire tree to target rather than directly clicking the unit.  If you are not targeting ANY real illums with a SB thats your own fault for not targeting a real one(easily done with empire tree).  Any damage to other units is not controllable to a good extent so that would in fact be damage wasted.  I have went against an orky on repeated occasions with 40 illums and a progen and let me tell you it isn't that easy to kill especially if it has been sitting with the upgrades rather than getting them on the fly while being attacked.  If you can catch it while being built then maybe you can very well kill one with that fleet depending on how much damage you get in while building.  Shield restore helps but it doesn't help that much and if you dont have guardians to share some of the shield burden you are still going to lose a good amount of ships and you will run out of AM quick unless you are at a star.

 

A transcencia would die as quick as an orkulus given 3 defense upgrades.  It certainly would not wipe it unless the advent had some guardians to repulse the kodiaks out of range.  Without intervention you may get off 1 meteor in the time it has against 50 kodiaks but that would be it.  Even with mass disorientation it would not be that much longer although it would prolong its life to maybe get off a 2nd meteor.  If you want to allow for guardians then certainly subverters could be around to neutralize on the vasari side.  With all that though you are raised to a 5 upgrade sb with fleet support which is a whole different ball of wax in either case.

Argonev is different completely because of the button.  It can take out a large fleet with the sacrifice of the SB.

 

[_]-Greyfox

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Kitkun
Join Date 06/2008
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Reply #798 February 3, 2010 7:02:04 PM
from Sins of a Solar Empire ForumsSins of a Solar Empire Forums

   damageEnums
        AttackType "ANTIMODULE"
        DamageAffectType "AFFECTS_SHIELDS_AND_HULL"
        DamageApplyType "OVERTIME"
        DamageType "ENERGY"
        WeaponClassType "CHAOSBOLT"
    DamagePerBank:FRONT 328.000000
    DamagePerBank:BACK 328.000000
    DamagePerBank:LEFT 328.000000
    DamagePerBank:RIGHT 328.000000
    Range 6000.000000
    PreBuffCooldownTime 9.000000

328/9=~36.4

Does that to all targets before damage type.

Tell me if I'm doing something stupid. Trig test fried my math brain.

N3rull- OK well I get that the duration is different, but what exactly is the point of having 200% damage reduction? Does that possibly overcome abilities like designate target?
Iirc, formula is 1/(1+X) so 200% reduction puts incoming damage to 1/3rd normal.

 

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Arthanis
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Reply #799 February 3, 2010 7:12:20 PM
from Sins of a Solar Empire ForumsSins of a Solar Empire Forums

What if we increase Orkulus (or even all starbases) upgrade slots to 10? It won't break balance, because UBER_combinations_of_more_then_8_upgrades_pwning_everything_and_screwing_balance don't exist. It is just more upgrades = higher cost = higher possible casualties when Space Station explodes - but increasing number of slots to 10 will solve all Orkulus problems.

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Deceiver_0
Join Date 12/2008
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Reply #800 February 3, 2010 8:38:22 PM
from Sins of a Solar Empire ForumsSins of a Solar Empire Forums

Grey, your forgetting that Mass disorientation outranges kodiaks and illums alike, and cuts down on their fire rate significantly. I just wiped the floor with a fleet of illuminators with a Transcencia with 1 defensive upgrade, 1 mass disorient upgrade and 2 meteor upgrades. I hit disorient before the illums got in range and then pummeled them with 3 meteor storms, the third as they were running off. Annihilated more than half the fleet. Now in the previous patch, and orky wouldnt have stood a chance against a fleet of illuminators that size. But in THIS patch (1.05) I threw around the same amount of illums, supported by a progen, a halo, illusions and guardians at a fully upped Orky and barely made a dent in it. Ggranted I had to kill a baby transcenscia first, and was taking fire from, the survivng half of that earlier fleet, but I had my illums 2/3 the way fully upped and that Orky still raped me illusions and all. So far im liking the reduced power of illuminators, they are still tough as nails, but they dont just rip everything to shreds anymore.

Oh and 1 more thing on illusions, its only easy to FF real ships if theyre all together. Otherwise by simply clicking on the empire tree, you could end up sending your fleet after illuminators all over the place, and thats recipe for disaster. Either that or once you realize youve jsut queued your fleet to attack something on the other side of the well, you have to reque everything. Not to mention it tends to get hardere later in the game with the empire tree jumping up and down. Where as the illuminators owner must simply set and forget. (hopefully not so much anymore, I see the old side-beam roundabout coming back in this patch)

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