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Seleuceia
Seleuceia
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Balance Patch: Experience points

August 7, 2010 1:12:43 AM from Sins of a Solar Empire ForumsSins of a Solar Empire Forums

Zombie brought to my attention the vast imbalance in the amount of experience granted for killing the various ships in the game...this thread is to address all issues related to experience points...

Here is a table made by Pbhead and Darvin that shows the various stats relevant to this issue...

Ship Class Faction Name XP Command XP / Command
Scout Advent Seeker Vessel 15 2 7.5
Scout TEC Arcova Scout Frigate 20 2 10
Scout Vasari Jikara Navigator 20 3

6.67
Light Advent Disciple Vessel 30 4 7.5
Light TEC Cobalt Light Frigate 30 5 6
Light Vasari Ravastra Skirmisher 30 7 4.29
Long Advent Illuminator Vessel 45 6 7.5
Long TEC Javelis LRM Frigate 30 4 7.5
Long Vasari Kanrak Assailant 20 6 3.33
Siege Advent Purge Vessel 65 12 5.42
Siege TEC Krosov Siege Frigate 65 12 5.42
Siege Vasari Karrastra Destructor 65 12 5.42
Antifighter Advent Defense Vessel 60 4 15
Antifighter TEC Garda Flak Frigate 50 4 12.5
Antifighter Vasari Junsurak Sentinel 60 5 12
Carrier Advent Aeria Drone Host 100 20 5
Carrier TEC Percheron Light Carrier 80 14 5.71
Carrier Vasari Lasurak Transporter 80 14 5.71
Utility0 Advent Domina Subjugator 20 4 5
Utility0 TEC Cielo Command Cruiser 50 6 8.33
Utility0 Vasari Stilakus Subverter 20 5 4
Utility1 Advent Iconus Guardian 20 7 2.86
Utility1 TEC Hoshiko Robotics Cruiser 30 4 7.5
Utility1 Vasari Serevun Overseer 20 7 2.86
Heavy Advent Destra Crusader 100 10 10
Heavy TEC Kodiak Heavy Cruiser 100 10 10
Heavy Vasari Skarovas Enforcer 100 12 8.33
Colony Advent Missionary Vessel 20 7 2.86
Colony TEC Protev Colony Frigate 20 6 3.33
Colony Vasari Jarun Migrator 20 6 3.33
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Seleuceia
Seleuceia
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Reply #1 August 7, 2010 1:32:57 AM
from Sins of a Solar Empire ForumsSins of a Solar Empire Forums

Here are my thoughts...

Scouts:

Seeker stay at 15 (7.5 per FPS)

Arcova 20 -> 15 (7.5 per FPS)

Navigator stay at 20 ( 6.67 per FPS)

 

Light Frigates:

Disciple 20 -> 25 (6.25 per FPS)

Cobalt stay at 30 (6 per FPS)

Skirmisher 30 -> 40 (5.71 per FPS)

 

Long Range Frigates:

Illuminator stay at 45 (7.5 per FPS)

LRM stay at 30 (7.5 per FPS)

Kanrak 20 -> 45 (7.5 per FPS)

 

Siege Frigates are I think fine...

 

Anti-fighter:

Defense 60 -> 50 (12.5 per FPS)

Garda stay at 50 (12.5 per FPS)

Sentinel stay at 60 (12 per FPS)

 

Carriers:

Aeria 100 -> 110 (5.5 per FPS)

Percheron stay at 80 (5.71 per FPS)

Lasurak stay at 80 (5.71 per FPS)

 

Support:

Domina 20 -> 30 (7.5 per FPS)

Hoshiko stay at 30 (7.5 per FPS)

Subverter 20 -> 35 (7 per FPS)

Iconus 20 -> 60 (8.57 per FPS)

Cielo stay at 50 (8.33 per FPS)

Overseer 20 -> 60 (8.57 per FPS)

 

Heavy Cruiser:

Destra stay at 100 (10 per FPS)

Kodiak stay at 100 (10 per FPS)

Enforcer 100 -> 120 (10 per FPS)

 

Colony vessels are probably fine...

 

It may be worth taking at look at the various pirate ships, they are rather low in experience if I remember correctly...also, I always felt that starbases were a little low, but maybe that's just me...

 

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Seleuceia
Seleuceia
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Reply #2 August 7, 2010 1:50:19 AM
from Sins of a Solar Empire ForumsSins of a Solar Empire Forums

Forgot to bring up SC...so here they are...

Vasari Bomber   11 XP      3 per squadron      33 XP per squadron

Vasari Fighter     5 XP       5 per squadron      25 XP per squadron

Advent Bomber   6.5 XP    7 per squadron      45.5 XP per squadron

Advent Fighter    2.5 XP    9 per squadron       22.5 XP per squadron

TEC Bomber       6.5 XP    5 per squadron       32.5 XP per squadron

TEC Fighter        3.5 XP     6 per squadron      21 XP per squadron

 

As we can see, the SC aren't at all equal either...it is my feeling that the Vasari values are probably what we want to target for...

With that in mind, I'd put Advent Bombers at 4.5 XP, bringing them to 31.5 XP per squadron...

As for TEC, I'd lower their bomber to 6 XP, bringing them to 30 XP per squadron (they're the weakest, so they should be the lowest)...

Long range cruisers may need to be addressed, but I have a feeling that the solanus adjudicator is going to get changed, and fleet supply may be one of those changes...

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Darvin3
Join Date 12/2008
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Reply #3 August 7, 2010 3:04:16 AM
from Sins of a Solar Empire ForumsSins of a Solar Empire Forums

Kanrak 20 -> 45 (7.5 per FPS)


This is the only one that's a big deal.  Everything else is close enough that it's not worth mucking around with.

Looking at your second post, Advent bombers are also a bit out of range, so those could get reduced a bit.


That's my opinion; increase Kanrak XP, decrease Advent Bomber XP.  Nothing else really needs to change, IMO.

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Seleuceia
Seleuceia
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Reply #4 August 7, 2010 7:27:43 AM
from Sins of a Solar Empire ForumsSins of a Solar Empire Forums

Also noticed that the experience gained from destroying a capital ship was off...the jump between a level 6 and level 7 cap ship is 260 to 310...if you follow the patter between all the other jumps, it should be 260 to 330...figured we might as well change it, honestly it seems like the devs just made an error when typing it up...

I agree that the kanrak is the only big one that matters...but I figure, if we're going to do this, we might as well go all the way...

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Darvin3
Join Date 12/2008
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Reply #5 August 7, 2010 1:41:46 PM
from Sins of a Solar Empire ForumsSins of a Solar Empire Forums

if you follow the patter between all the other jumps, it should be 260 to 330...figured we might as well change it, honestly it seems like the devs just made an error when typing it up...

After level 7, there's really a diminishing return for capital ship levels.  And besides the point, they're so rare that the situation is almost meaningless.  Certainly, in my opinion, it's not worth quibbling over a few points of XP. 

 

As I said, the Advent Bomber and the Vasari Assailant are the only ones here that are even worth our time.  I wouldn't bother mucking around with anything else.

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SithLordAJ
Join Date 04/2008
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Reply #6 August 7, 2010 4:42:10 PM
from Sins of a Solar Empire ForumsSins of a Solar Empire Forums

I was going to  guess that the XP was handed out based off of average expected fleet composition. for example, a ship type a faction might specialize in would get lower xp because they would be expected to have more of that ship and it would all balance out. I was going to guess that. then I figured based off your chart, its not that hard to calculate and it didnt add up the way I thought. Here's a chart I made, might help.

I looked at each ship's: xp/cp, xp as a % of faction's total, xp as a % of faction's total, and xp/cp as a % of faction's total

  • XP as a % of faction's total- Should tell us about how you want to target ships. Currently, the Heavy's + Advent carrier are the majority of XP at slightly over 21%. The next tier down are siege, carriers, and anti-strikecraft + Ceilo at over 10%.
  • CP as a % of faction's total-  Should tell us something about fleet compisition. Currently, the TEC and Advent carriers are the majority of CP at 20% and 26%. The next tier down are siege, HCs + Vasari carrier at over 13% (most over 15%)
  • XP/CP as a % of faction's total- Should indicate more about the true all around value. Killing ships with high values should yield the best XP for you and free the least CP for the oppnent to replenish losses. Strangely, anti-strikecraft are the most valuable with Advent and Vasari's over 21% and TEC at 16%. Next, HCs are at 14%, and finally, scouts, advent LF, advent LRF, vasari carrier, and the ceilo are around 10-11%
  • As far as low values, the advent scout has the least % of XP and CP of all ships at 3% and 2.6%. Low XP/CP % also goes to advent with a tie between the colony and gaurdian at 4.2%, meaning those ships will give you the least xp and tend to free up the most CPs for opponent
  • faction totals: Advent & TEC XP= 475, Vasari XP= 435, Advent CP=76, TEC CP=67, Vasari CP=77, Advent XP/CP=68.63, TEC XP/CP=76.3, Vasari XP/CP=55.94, Advent avg XP/CP=6.25, TEC avg XP/CP=7.09, Vasari XP/CP=5.65 (btw, I did try looking at avg XP/CP, but it didnt really give anything meaningful, so I summed the XP/CP of each ship per faction. I provided the avg numbers as an FYI)

Now, if we increase the kanrak from 20->45:

  • XP as a % of faction's total and CP as a % of faction's total- unchanged from above
  • XP/CP as % of faction's total- drops down the value of the vasari anti-fighter to be halfway between TEC and Advent, drops down the value of the vasari carrier (still higher than other factions) and increases the value of the Kanrak from 5.69% to 12.48%, which im sure you know is alot. btw, advent LRF is 10.93%
  • low values stay the same
  • Vasari XP=435->460, Vasari XP/CP=55.94->60.11, Vasari avg XP/CP=5.65->5.97

kanrak from 20->40:

  • XP/CP as %-vasari anti-fighter doesnt take quite as hard of a hit and stays closer to advent's, vasari carrier same as above, the Kanrak now is at 11.25%, still double its old value but barely greater than advent LRF. Funnily, this ties the value of advent/vasari scouts with LRFs
  • Vasari XP=455, Vasari XP/CP=59.27, Vasari avg XP/CP=5.91
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Seleuceia
SithLordAJ
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Reply #7 August 7, 2010 5:27:27 PM
from Sins of a Solar Empire ForumsSins of a Solar Empire Forums

I actually forgot you were mostly concerned with low values. I went back and looked for XP<5%, got scouts in both xp and cp, the kanrak, colonys for xp, the domina/subverter/gaurdian/overseer are all <5% XP. TEC seems to put more xp into their utility craft at 10.53% for the ceilo and 6.32% for the hoshiko.

to summarize the current situation, advent XP/CP% (sort of baseline): +3% LF; TEC XP/CP%: +1-2% scouts, -5% flak, +3% cielo, +4-5% hoshiko; Vasari XP/CP%: -4-5% LRF, +2% seige, +3% carrier, +1-2% colony

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Seleuceia
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Reply #8 August 8, 2010 1:22:59 AM
from Sins of a Solar Empire ForumsSins of a Solar Empire Forums

Hmmm...an interesting approach...

At first, I figured then this would be justification to reduce the XP values of flak...however, flak are also one of the harder ships to kill (per fleet supply) and are one of the most expensive...so, I think it is actually okay that flak are more XP...

However, I do think raising the XP of support ships (non-TEC) would be justified (as you have shown TEC are way higher)...

What is important that, amongst a given unit type (like LRFs) the XP values are comparable, because this is what affects the balance between factions...

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