I think I research too much » Forum Post by SithLordAJ

The only things I research on a small map are but not always in this order

Ice, Volcanic Colonize
LRM
Repair bay
Repair cruiser
Carriers

On a medium map I will go for the other ships and trade routes but in a small I just build push build push.

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in addition to myfist i research tier 1 terran planet upg and weapon hull +shield upgrade. It all depends on the race as well.

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If you think you research too much, you probably do. Spending too much cash on research is possibly the most common beginner mistake out there. Most technology only makes sense for large fleets or large empires that can get a lot of performance. This is because techs have a static cost but a scaling effect. That +5% damage costs the same regardless of whether you have 10 frigates or 100 frigates, but in the latter case its effectiveness is ten times higher. For this reason, most techs are balanced for medium to large empires and aren't even worth considering for smaller ones.

Generally unit prototypes and ice/volcanic colonization are your top priority. Unlocking necessary units and structures is simply unavoidable; you'll need to do it sooner or later. After that, some of the low-level technologies are worthwhile. The first level techs are very affordable, and are great investments if you have a little cash lying around that needs to be spent. Greg's suggestion of the terran planet upgrades or hull point upgrades are great choices. Phase Missiles for Vasari is another gimme.

However, techs get considerably more expensive at each tech level (not even counting the cost of the lab itself) and by the 3rd lab level you have to pick very sparingly. At the 5th lab level and above, technologies are basically "destination" picks. You build the labs in order to research one specific technology, be that meteor control, repulsion, heavy cruisers, development mandate, subverters, phase stabilizers, or superweapons. It's very rare that you'll pick up any general-purpose techs at this level, and you should focus exclusively on the high-priority ones.

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I agree with Darvin3.

Structures and prototypes are essential.

Low level terran pop upgrades (skip other planet types unless you have a crazy map). One level of phase lane detection later on won't kill you (but always remember to be scouting). Wormhole only if it is strategically useful (depends on map). First level hull refinements. Phase jump inhibitors. Starbase constructors (e.g. Raloz for TEC).

But there are also some race-specific / ship specific upgrades that are necessary in my book as well.

These would not be relevant on a small map 1 v 1 or 1 v 1 v 1.

Some are more appropriate for an eco pocket player ion a big team match.

For Example:

For TEC:

=====

Hoshikos -> Demolition Bots

Kodiaks -> Intercept

Pervasive economy if you can swing it, it is huge ...

If Eco pocket player, logisistic buff (I forget name) and the labor negotiations (when transitioning to ships / warfare) and pervasive economy is then a must.

Advent:

=====

Repulse!!!!

Some improved reactor buffs for antimatter recharging can be useful for Advent ... (Advent fleets are devastating if the y have antimatter)

Some beam enhancements can be great for your bombers and if you crunch the numbers are more efficient than loading up on proportionally more drone hosts plus it buffs illuminators also! Remember SoaSE is heavily slanted towards. If I can I go pretty far down this line the illuminator buff is gravy, the meat and potatoes are the bombers. With this branch, I can skip using fighters (use telekinetic push + flak to thwart enemy strikecraft) almost entirely (beware Jam Weapons though).

Hangars + Shield Bestowal (forget the strikecraft; save the antimatter for the shields). Shield Bestowal works amazing with a starbase + repair bays. If done right Advent defensive positions are impregnable (i.e. all the opponent can do is go around).

Also the first couple culture updates and especially the evangelization node on starbases. These often force the other player to lay down multiple broadcast centers / media hubs per border world and chews up their logistic slots. Probably more efficacious the larger the map gets.

Lastly don't forget the Mass Disorientation for starbases, it is the ultimate fleet killer when supported by an advent fleet.

Also the tactics slot upgrade can be cost effective if you have to go more into defense until your fleet builds up.

Vasari:

=====

Phase missiles!!!

First couple of armor upgrades (in addition to normal hull upgrades)

Skirantras!!!

Hangars + Phasic trap (good night strikecraft)

Slave labor (especially on larger maps)!

Assault Deployment if you like parking an Orkulus in enemy territory

Some antimatter reactor enhancements are nice (think Skirantras)

Lastly did I mention phase missiles?

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Note I am ignoring the paths to end game super weapons like Novaliths, Kostura Cannons, etc. That is a personal choice and can be effective but can also be argued to be overkill. The exception being a Vasari pocket player who is fed to RA, which if played well is lights out.

Still in the end 3/4 of the full research trees are a waste unless you are in some huge drawn out game with nasty AI in a large map and even then you probably would have won anyways a lot earlier if you had built more ships instead of the extra research anyways.

I routinely am in last place in research when I play the AI (at almost any level). When in multiplayer I often see things the opposition has researched something vestigial and scratch my head saying "why did he waste resources on that"?

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(skip other planet types unless you have a crazy map)

Desert ones are okay because they're cheap. If the map's crazy, ice can work. Forget about volcanic; you need at least 10 volcanics to even consider this, and if your empire is large enough to contain that you should probably be trade spamming instead...

logisistic buff (I forget name)

Development Mandate.

This is one of the few techs that's actually worthwhile for smaller empires. The reason is that at a certain point you just can't get more logistic space, so it literally becomes invaluable to get +1 slot per planet. Also if you need to build a trade port on a dead asteroid, it's actually cheaper to research this technology than putting up a starbase on purely economic grounds.

Very good tech, one of the few purely economic technologies I'd actually be willing to put down labs in order to get. Definitely one of your top picks if it looks like the game is going late and you need to develop that economy, because this tech really does live up to its name.

Repulse!!!!

Absolutely; an Advent player without repulsion is a player who shouldn't be playing Advent.

Lastly did I mention phase missiles?

Can't overemphasize these guys. Absolutely scary weaponry.

Note I am ignoring the paths to end game super weapons like Novaliths, Kostura Cannons, etc. That is a personal choice and can be effective but can also be argued to be overkill. The exception being a Vasari pocket player who is fed to RA, which if played well is lights out.

Kostura is the only high-end technology that can be seriously called a "game-ender". This thing is crazy powerful, and if you can get an array of them online, the enemy is royally screwed.

Otherwise, you can usually match most of these "game-enders" just by fielding a bigger fleet.

I routinely am in last place in research when I play the AI (at almost any level)

This is normal; the AI grossly over-expends on technology. The highest level AI's will literally research everything available the moment a new lab goes online.

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Hmmm.

Someone mentioned shield bestoval and am. I don't think they are related. I don't think you need AM to have shield bestoval.

It is completely different for vasari phasic hangars though....

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"Otherwise, you can usually match most of these "game-enders" just by fielding a bigger fleet."

Agreed, but if the opponent has RA you will have a hard time having the bigger fleet in my experience. My calculations show a person with RA is getting a little less than 2.2x the logistics points / credit spent (I am including the 4.5 : 1 metal / crystal to credit conversion), and if the player has multiple phase stabilizers (which is likely) they can field a large fleet quickly. Granted they have to pay regular for cap ships and some support vessels but still it seems pretty devastating to me. But 2500 credits + 150 metal + 500 crystal for 78 logistic points (on average) is an amazing return (i.e. one RA buy is slightly more than 3 enforcers in cost). Hard to keep up with a player who has 4-5 phase stabilizers feeding a choke point. Granted their risk was in getting to RA though in the first place.

On the other hand you make a good case for Kostura cannons. Timed right you can bypass the enemy choke points and crumple their key worlds quickly. All in all the tactical possibilities with phase stabilizers and then on top of that Kostura cannons is amazing.

It seems pretty clear if you can't hamstring the Vasari player(s) early you are screwed unless they are ignorant of how to use their tactical advantages. On the other hand if an Advent player can get to a large enough fleet and micros well they can seriously wreck your day. Novaliths may be devastating en masse but then I would argue you should have won anyways. Though a pain a colony can be rebuilt from scratch in a few minutes. The true superweapon of the TEC is their econ talents (cargo holds + pervasive) imo.

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@ DBKITA

if you can get 6-8 kosutras and fire them at same planet you don't need to worry about choke point because all structures and fleet minus sb and caps on that planet is dead. Thats why kosutras are so devastating. In addition to that they open phase lane to any planet you want so if you cannot get 6-8 to build you can go rape his inner planets and force him on defense.

And RA IMO at least in mp is thing of the past. Investment is too high and while you are investing and researching RA enemy is building fleet so its high chance that he will destroy those phase stabilizers u build for RA

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@Greg30007:

Thanks for the info. I never conceived of using Kosturas on such a mass scale (though I doubt I will get a chance to in MP any time soon). I knew of their phase lane ability as I alluded to above regarding their devastating ability to snipe HWs and such.

My comments on RA in regards to MP were largely theoretical since I only obtained it once (in a 3v3 but I wiped out the remaining two enemies with it after my two allies bit the dust). Some of its utility might depend on the map and hence the ease with which the enemy can get to your non-border phase stabilizers. In my case it was sort of weird chain of events that led to it (long story).

I will try your suggestion against the AI some time to have fun with it, since in MP getting to Kosturas ain't cheap, let alone building 6-8.

Thanks for the tips

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I don't think you need AM to have shield bestoval.

No you don't; and thankfully, too, the Advent hanger has serious AM problems.

Agreed, but if the opponent has RA you will have a hard time having the bigger fleet in my experience.

The expense of bringing RA on to the field is absolutely enormous. It's not just the techs, it's also putting up a network of phase stabilizers. Even then it's not free, and it'll be a while before it pays for itself. That's a pretty big window of opportunity in which the enemy will be doing his own thing. I'm not saying RA is bad, I'm just saying you can match it in most cases by spending on fleet. As Greg explains, if you have a huge amount of money to spend, 6-8 Kosturas are probably your best bet. A concentrated blast is game-ending.

It seems pretty clear if you can't hamstring the Vasari player(s) early you are screwed unless they are ignorant of how to use their tactical advantages.

Definitely; if it goes late-game Vasari are definitely the strongest faction. Advent might have a fair shot at beating them, between their excellent caps and repulsion, but TEC can just forget about it.

since in MP getting to Kosturas ain't cheap, let alone building 6-8.

Not unheardof in a 5v5 scenario where a pocket player gets to develop and become large. You'll almost never see it in 3v3 or smaller, though.

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Thanks for the advice guys I will give Kosturas a shot next time I am a pocket Vasari.

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thanks for the advice all. I am absolutely sure that I've been researching too much now. by game end on a small map i have 8 hostility temples and 5-6 harmony. I research every military tech and defense tech with a few exceptions. Most of my civil tech goes to trade and culture.

my usual start is to drop 2 harmony temples, grab the ice and volcanic tech, then scrap the temples. Once I get hostility temples up, my primary goal is illuminators followed by guardians. Repulsion is nice, but I dont think im too good with it and it requires 2 more labs than I can usually afford at that point. At the same time as the illuminators, I'm usually grabbing SB tech to seal up choke points. Now is when I grab trade ports which gives me enough cash to go nuts on all other techs.

I'm not sure I can go without the trade ports, but since I see now that it is what allows me to go nuts; I think I'll try a game without them. I think my start is pretty solid, maybe with the exception of needing carriers sooner than I think I grab them (usually put them off a bit because of high cost).

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In every war good economy is engine for war machine.

So i think its better to rush trade at start. It will let you build those labs for iluminators much quicker and afterwards more ships in less time as well. Keep in mind to develop trade line (longest possible chain of neighboring planets with trade ports on them) So build ports wisely and on rest of the planets build labs.

And build only as many labs as you need.

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Quoting Greg30007,

reply 13

So i think its better to rush trade at start.

I did this. my research was trade->carriers->illuminators->SB->gaurdians. I did end up with culture at some point, but that was to battle his, pop upgrades (which i could have done without), and hull upgrades (I was worried my SBs would come under anti-module attacks).

Overall, the game went pretty well. There was a spot I was highly vulnerable though, so that and streamlining the whole process is what I need to work on. I will say that I did use to go trade first before, and got smacked down by some kind of rush, which is why I've been going combat. The local planets have been forcing me to drop civil labs for the ice colonization however. Which is probably why I had a confused mix of the 2.

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For advent race especially because it needs only 2 labs and mitigation increase culture is very important and it gives you boost of 10% quite early on start actually i build 1 center on my hw before i even place 1 st trade port. That is if i play advent....

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Quoting Greg30007,

reply 6

Hmmm.

Someone mentioned shield bestoval and am. I don't think they are related. I don't think you need AM to have shield bestoval.

It is completely different for vasari phasic hangars though....

you reaaly DO NOT need AM for that. +1

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The trick is to know when you stop rushing trade and develop economy and switch to either build fleet and continue expanding at slower pace or go pure military.

I think this point defines skilled player and of course be wise enough to retreat at right moment and fight another day

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Speaking of Kosturas ... I have had some recent fun vs 5-6 AIs on random, large maps where (at the advice of others in this forum) I built 8-10 Kosturas and fire them synchronized on heavy fortified gravity wells or snipe attacks vs undefended homeworlds.The stun effect alone is amazing, especially vs hangars with phasic trap. The phase stabilizing is awesome and the cumulative damage isn't bad. Very fun to jump into a TEC grav well where all the Kodiaks are at 300 health, all the percheron's are 30% hull and the LRM is gone.

Ironically while expensive at first, they 'allow' you to stay at a lower fleet supply setting (or two) and thus help to pay for their construction sooner than one might think.

I see now that Kosturas are the one true end game weapon. Nothing else compares.

Anyways wanted to say thanks who espoused Kosturas graces. You were dead on.

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The phase stabilizing is awesome and the cumulative damage isn't bad. Very fun to jump into a TEC grav well where all the Kodiaks are at 300 health, all the percheron's are 30% hull and the LRM is gone.

If you'd hit with 1 or 2 more blasts, you would have killed all the frigates and cruisers, including the kodiaks and carriers. As concentrated kostura blasts go, that's pretty devastating, but it gets even worse than that.

Anyways wanted to say thanks who espoused Kosturas graces. You were dead on.

I learned about the Kostura the hard way, by having a concentrated blast tear my fleet apart and leave me with kodiaks on the brink of death and all my smaller units reduced to debris. Utterly devastating...

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well, now im having a different issue related to research. To get more rapid expansion, I've been throwing down civ labs for ice/volcanic colonys first, then military labs to grab carriers, then guardians/SB/illuminatators as necessary. the issue now is that when im researching/just researched the military upgrade, i seem to end up waiting around... either for the upgrade or the ships from the upgrade. It seems like:

I'm low on cash due to my recently aquired planets not making good money yet
I'm low on cash due to research/ships purchased
I'm low on ships due to first contact.
The ships I do have are spread out do to expansion.
The enemy strength nearby is great enough that I must stop expanding to gather my fleet (and this is often pretty weak, but I've been fortunate to barely come out alive).
If I grab trade ports first it doesnt seem to solve the money problem quick enough to re-apply it to military tech.

So, is this normal? I hear people say advent is good defensively; are they forced to go pure defense at a certain point?

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What level of AI are you playing Sith? Also what map sizes? Reason I ask is that it is hard to give an answer to something like this (at least for me) without some context.

At a fundamental level, if you are playing cruel (or god forbid vicious) then every faction has to get defensive at start with very rare exceptions. At unfair, unless you have a tough map / conditions you don't need to go overly defensive. But on the other hand until you get high enough mil tech you can't rush like TEC nor can you scramble bomber your way out of thorny situations. Personally I don't build a star base playing unfair AI, until I have seen my neighbors basing up and even then only if I have more than one choke getting hammered at the same time and I can't be in two places at once. At unfair, it is rare I have more than one SB that actually fights (the others might be for trade network). On cruel I starbase right away and start laying down repair bays like crazy.

An Advent disciple rush (while possible in MP) is suicide at higher AI levels. On the other hand illuminators are underwhelming until you tech up high enough (and even then they are a pale shadow of high tech assailants). Advent can only get offensive at higher AI levels when they 1) have guardians w/ repulse, 2) destras (since illuminators need a buff imo), 3) lots of bombers, and/or 4) Halcyon + Halcyon or Halcyon + Mothership combo. Defense vessels are ok (nowhere near as good as junsaraks) but you have TK push with your Halcyon(s). At unfair you won't need all these to get going. At cruel I suggest you at least have these otherwise you won't do serious damage. Some might argue with destras but I really find that the more I stretch to get them early the better off I always am vs the AI. MP is totally different of course.

As far as running out of ships / money. it would be helpful to know again what level AI and what map sizes. Then it might be easier to dissect. Also over-expansion (within limits) is a great problem to have at unfair, but can be majorly deadly at cruel. Beware the chokes at cruel and vicious. Don't go past them unless you are prepared to suffer.

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So, is this normal? I hear people say advent is good defensively; are they forced to go pure defense at a certain point?

Yes, being tight on money is very normal. In fact, it means you're doing things right. Spending every penny practically the second it comes in is actually a sign of high efficiency.

Going trade first is a viable approach on medium scenarios, and probably your best approach on larger scenarios where it will pay off before contact.

As for Advent, they're weak early on but they get stronger later once their better units come onto the field and their capital ships level up a bit. Defensively I'd say that Vasari has the best defenses due to phasic traps, but otherwise the factions are roughly even.

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So, is this normal? I hear people say advent is good defensively; are they forced to go pure defense at a certain point?

Yes, being tight on money is very normal. In fact, it means you're doing things right. Spending every penny practically the second it comes in is actually a sign of high efficiency.

Darvin is a great player but i do have to somewhat disagree with that statement.

After watching replays of some of the best players in SINS I noticed there is a thing they all do. They save money and don't purchase fleet till last minute. Another thing is they are constantly scouting enemy and when they see what enemy is building they build counters to their fleet. With 3 factories you got plenty of production power to do so. after they have enough counters and they filled fleet supply they save again..... That is if they still play defensive or they have fleet big enough to crush opponents.

I embraced this strategy and at least on MP it works very well. The thing is only to time it and scout right. If you see 40 lrms 1 jump away you do need to have some of fleet already build....

I rarely play SP anymore and if i do I play 5v5 vicious matches where being defensive at start and support your allies AI with sb is very important. They are fighting 4v5 until you can develop economy.... So i cannot tell if above strat works for SP but i would say it does because with less fleet supply u get more money and resources.

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Quoting Greg30007,

reply 23

After watching replays of some of the best players in SINS I noticed there is a thing they all do. They save money and don't purchase fleet till last minute.

I embraced this strategy and at least on MP it works very well.

That sounds like a MP counter to scouting. I'll keep it in mind when I progress to MP (which will probably be awhile as my aptitude in this game has gone backwards over the years).

And I am starting to get a grip on scouting and countering, as last night the AI built a huge fleet of LFs, which I saw with my scouts, so I countered with illuminators (which I wasnt planning to do). After building some up, I just couldn't take standing around waiting anymore and launched an assault with alot less ships than opponent, but built a SB /w mass disorient during the fight. Halfway through, I had taken out all of his LFs and capital, but he had taken out most of my illuminators. Then a fleet of about 10-15 LRMs jumped in (which I hadn't noticed building up because I was so focused on the fight), but I had 3 carriers and my Halcyon, so I switched all strikecraft to fighters, and flew in more guardians (I had a few up to this point, but they kept dying due to the LFs) to protect my capital. There was a break in the fight before the LRMs which allowed me to take the asteroid we were fighting over and setup repair bays. This last push was all the AI could muster, and the rest was a walk in the park.

I am wondering though: I've been spending alot of time trying to keep my scouts alive in enemy territory. I've been wondering if it might be better to just buy the scout upgrade and stop wasting time queing their movement (which, tbh, I think should be an ability of theirs: Avoid Contact which flies them around the grav well). Obviously, if I had time it would be okay to do, but the catch is that the time I need to be careful about how much time I spend is the early game; which is too early to get the remote view upgrade. Also, in the past I've had a scout at an opponent's planet where I'm about to launch an assault, and I go to check out the layout, and in that exact instant my scout dies. It's happened so many times, it's frustrating.

I do want to make a suggestion for new players: start a game (probably on lower speed settings), immediately save, then do your best to expand rapidly. once you get in a real fight with the enemy, start over from the save. repeat until you have worked out all the kinks in your startup. then do a match to the end. then repeat this process on a different map.

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Yes to some degree it is counter to scouting but if opponent is passive you go and attack him..... and they do save to a degree when they feel they can buy relevant research and ships they attack and with pros that is very soon. lol

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