Right, we ALL know the glaring late game weaknesses of TEC Darvin. Insurgency in it's current form is just about worthless, which is why I said buff it, if the frequency of the attacks and the strength of the rebels was increased... say by spawning a low level random TEC capital ship, it would be a very nasty ability.

I also think that the Hoshinko needs to be buffed with Demolition Bots doing damage and having a longer effect, that would increase it's scaling into the late game. The Cielo needs to be able to break the Subverter lock...

You also didn't comment on my other suggestion to give the TEC the ability to flip remaining structures and use the enemies tech against them. Imagine the TEC being able to utilize PS... and not having to completely demolish a grav-well to build there. The ground work is already in place for such an ability to work and be implemented well since when you take a planet the logistic and tactical slots are still tied up with the remaining structures.

There are several small things that could be done to help the TEC...no longer requiring the hoshiko to face its target when using demolition bots, embolden providing a higher buff, flak burst being more viable, etc....

The problem, however, is not just that the TEC are too weak...the bottom line is, the Vasari are too strong late game...you cannot simply buff a few aspects of the TEC and suddenly have a balanced late game...ultimately, giving the TEC a better late game inherently requires changing the Vasari...

Some things, like scramble bombers and kosturas, are grossly and obviously overpowered...nerfing these two things alone would make dramatic improvements to the game...but, if you really are looking for a truly good late game for the TEC, it is going to get a lot more complicated than simply making 1 or 2 tweaks...

Insurgency isn't that great, but it's not really a weak point of the TEC as all 3 factions have technologies that severely under-perform in most games...TEC need a stronger military more than anything else...they need stronger capital ships (mostly buffs to Kol and Dunov), stronger support ships (mainly cielo), and a more powerful superweapon...

In general, I'd say these are the three most important types of abilities:

1) Ability disrupt (Magnetize, Ion bolt, Reverie, Detonate Antimatter, Disruptive Strikes, Phase out hull)

2) AM drainer (EMP, Detonate antimatter, Disruptive strikes)

3) Anti-SC (flak burst, TK push, Jam weapons)

I'm not saying these are the most powerful abilities, but conceptually they are the most useful and provide the best flexibility...

Advent have detonate antimatter that single-handedly carries the Radiance...this ability is both an excellent ability disrupt and AM drainer...Advent also have TK, arguable the best anti-SC ability in the game as it not only disrupts any bombing run, but it also damages the ships...

Vasari have disruptive strikes which, like detonate antimatter, provides two roles at once...they also have JW, which is a guaranteed method to disrupt any bombing run...

TEC have flak burst which is pathetic...not only is it hard to use a lot because of the AM cost, but it does nothing to disrupt bombing runs...ion bolt is an excellent ability disrupt, but it does nothing to drain anti-matter and is not a long term solution like disruptive strikes or detonate antimatter...while EMP is good at what it does, it isn't an interrupt...ultimately, TEC are weak in all 3 of the most important abilities to have...

Both the hoshiko and cielo need to be buffed...for the hoshiko, simply don't require it to face its target when it uses dem bots (make it a fire and forget ability, basically)...for the cielo, embolden simply needs to have higher stats...if you actually build cielos, it is real easy to get the majority of your ships under the influence of embolden...change the weapon cooldown to say 25%, and suddenly you have something comparable to lvl 3 energy aura...a buff to the shield regen wouldn't be bad either...

The problem with the novalith is that it has no tactical value...the kostura disables structures for 3 minutes making offensive actions a lot easier, and the deliverance engine gives you a temporary damage boost while in that well...the novalith however does nothing to aid your fleet in any way...kosturas can make complete kills on structures and ships, and deliverance engines can eventually guarantee the enemy loses the planet...with the destruction of structures or the drop in allegiance, both advent and Vasari are making huge dents in the enemy's economy in the long run...meanwhile, novaliths can be easily countered and doesn't affect resource or trade income...if you want to make the novalith useful, have it affect trade in addition to tax income...

Sorry, but this is completely inaccurate. If you have been playing the game lately you should notice that any full TEC team or any TEC player on a large map is just so hopelessly outmatched that it is impossible for any TEC players to win.

Which only counts in the early game since in the mid-late game they are outmatched in EVERY WAY. Having money doesn't matter if all you are spending it on is garbage.

One word... Subverter. It completely shuts down spamming by counter spamming this single unit.

Which is shutdown and locked out by the most powerful combat ship in the game the Kortul and Disruptive Strikes, a counter to any focused ability. IF there was no charge time on it then I would agree but as is if I am playing Vasari and I see a Marza I am going to assign a Kortul or two to chain "strike" it until it has no antimatter then lay down a Subverter lock.

Again, that doesn't matter when some of the best Vasari players will leave a few Subverters in each gravwell and then chain stun them and let the strike craft take care of them.

Sounds like he was a pocket player on a team of Vasari and Advent hardhitters.

Actually if you were up to date on the current strategies for TEC you should know that TEC players that play on teams play with other races and they are the economy that supports the team... not the muscle.

I've heard different and seen different. Advent are JUST not as good at rushing as they used to be, they still have all their late game power and will outclass TEC in the late game. Still.

I agree.

I only agree somewhat. I don't think nerfing the Vasari late game is the best option. Right now I like Vasari vs Advent games as they are very interesting and can go either way.

This isn't supposed to be a whine thread on Vasari power, which all the things the Vasari have make them a fun faction to play. What you are suggesting is instead of buffing a faction to a competitive level you are suggesting nerfing the fun out of the other faction. Which was done to the Advent and now you see people "bitching" about that. So obviously nerfing is NOT the answer.

I seriously see potential in Insurgency. I don't know why but I have been playing games for a long time (25 years) and when I see a mechanic that strikes me as strong potentially I am not usually wrong. Just something about it... anyway I agree that the Kol needs to be buffed with it's Flak ability and that god awful Railgun. The way I would buff flak is a very short cooldown, and drop the AM cost. How much needs testing, but in my opinion it needs to be as useful as Push. The Novalith needs a damage boost...  and that's it really, perhaps a "gravity slug" effect that slows down production and enemy ship speed/phase jumping.

I agree. In fact I think that the Kortul is semi OP. Disruptive Strikes is amazingly effective (it's supposed to be) it's the self buff with shield regen AND weapon cooldown that makes it an unstoppable war machine. That's what the Kol should be, as is I only field them mid game for Flak and even that is so hopelessly underpowered that I feel like I should be fielding Garda's instead.

Trust me, the Radiance is a great ship and D/AM is not the only thing that carries it. The fact that Progenitors are also heavily played on and the Radiance's great synergy with Cleansing Brilliance and Malice combo makes for a very effective area nuke combo.

I wanted to "end quote" at TEC have flak burst, to be honest. That would have said numbers on the complete underperformance and lack luster scaling that they have.

Everyone agrees that TEC is fine in the pocket; it's in front-line or stand-alone scenarios that they're lacking.  You can still pull it off early-mid game, but once it hits late and the other factions reach maturity, TEC is grossly outclassed.

I want to make this clear: TEC is a powerful faction in the early-game and often is capable of carrying this advantage into the late-game.  This is how skilled TEC players pull it off; get a leg up on the opponent early, and never fall behind.  But let's be clear; this is actually TEC's early-game strength that we're pointing to.  You can always win by leaving the enemy in your dust and advancing to much higher development levels, but that has more to do with out-playing the enemy with a long-term strategy than the faction you're using.

If you do not carry a significant advantage from the early-game, TEC's economic edge is not nearly sufficient to allow them to match what Vasari and Advent can do later on.

I'd agree with this, but I feel the point about TEC still stands.  This issue has been around forever whereas Advent has only just swung into the "underpowered" range for the first time in many versions after sitting at the top of the pack.  Their fundamentals are still good, it's just their phase missile vulnerability in the late-game and non-existant selection of openers in the early-game that hurt them.

Advent has some mid-game push options if they play very well, but their early-game vulnerabilities mean they have a hard time lining up for this brief window, and late-game phase missiles become a nightmare.

Not unwinnable, but I'd say Advent vs Vasari is not much better off than TEC vs Vasari once we reach the subverter or (oooh boy...) kostura stage

The Kortul is a battleship that manages to perform effectively despite the game grossly favouring carriers.  As the game stands right now, this is fine since it's a battleship in a carrier's world and it needs to overperform to compete.  If battleships get their time to shine, this guy could indeed be over the top.

CB is nice, but it requires you to reach level 6 and since t5he malice target cap nerf this combo has been less effective.  Overall detonate antimatter is still the selling point of this capital ship, and while you may aspire to cleansing brilliance it comes so late you can't count on it.

Advent need to abandon their shield tactics with Vasari, but this does not leave them with a one-trick pony.

The Rapture will probably be your favourite capital ship in this matchup (I never leave home without one in the late-game, and against Vasari it's often my second or third cap).  Vertigo, at level 3, will cut the damage output of affected units by more than HALF, and since its independent of your shield tech the phase missiles have no particular advantage against it.  Furthermore, vengeance is a great way to punish focus-fire, though sadly you really don't have the AM to juggle both abilities.  While vengeance is nice, Vertigo is definitely the more important ability of the two.

For the mothership, you probably want malice instead of SR.  While SR is still servicable, once PM's are fully upgraded it's not going to be a big deal and certainly not worth lugging around the relatively sluggish and easily killed Progenitor.  Malice, on the other hand, pushes your damage output up, which is critical in fast-paced battles against Vasari's typical heavy-hitter late-game fleets. 

Your biggest problem are the subverters, of course.  They're not unbeatable, but you're going to have to work to break the stun-lock.  If you can get out of it before they deal too many casualties, Advent can definitely pull it off.  All things considered, though, this is a downright masochistic matchup currently.  You need to outplay the opponent just to reach the stage of the game where you both have mature fleets, and then you have to make the kill before he gets Kosturas online which will end it.  All said, Advent have a very narrow window of opportunity to win this matchup, and it takes immense care to pull it off.

This is my concern, too.  I think the best we can do is take away the XP from killing insurgents.  Right now those HC it spawns in are just free tickets to level 6 capital ships.

@ Darvin

I agree...Vertigo and Malice are your two best abilities other than TK push, but I don't think they're enough to beat a well managed Vasari fleet...problem with malice is that the target cap really hurts you (especially for non HC fleets), and I'd much rather have multiple halcyons than try and lug around multiple progenitors...

My problem with vengeance is, as you said, that it's hard to use with vertigo at the same time...also, it requires you to constantly pay attention to what the enemy is targetting and when the duration of the effect has timed out...while that isn't too bad, trying to do that constantly while also managing repulsion, bombing runs, and microing to avoid subverters is not easy, especially on fast and faster speed...though, maybe that's just me being a poor micro player...

Now, the rapture is a good ship to have because you also can get concentration aura...Vasari SC + repair cloud are very difficult to kill and concentration aura certainly helps (plus you get better bombing runs)...however, vertigo won't do you any good against Vasari bombers, and to actually reach the assailants, you are going to have to put your rapture right in the middle of that battle...

Malice and vertigo are probably Advent's best options other than TK push (I'd consider detonate antimatter depending on the cap choices of the Vasari), but there not very good options...in the end, you're either going to need a sizeable advantage in numbers or cap XP, or you're going to need to be a much better tactical player than your opponent...

@XxTaLoNxX

Here are all the changes to the Kol...I would note that the speed change was given to all 3 battleships...

Kol Battleship

• Max linear speed increased from 525 to 600
• Gauss Rail Gun
  • Antimatter cost decreased from 75 to 40
  • Damage increased from 325/650/975 to 600/900/1200
  • Now decreases target's weapon cooldown by 33%
  • Duration increased from 10s to 10/15/20
• Flak Burst
  • Range increased from 2400/3000/3600 to 3000/3300/3600
  • Cooldown decreased from 12/10/8 to 10/9/8
  • Damage increased from 30/45/60 to 40/50/60
• Adaptive Forcefield
  • Changed to passive ability
• Finest Hour
  • Antimatter regeneration decreased from 5 per second to 3 per second
  • Hull regeneration increased from 10 per second to 15 per second
  • AI use time changed from only when enemy fleet will prevail to only in combat

GRG now reduces the damage output of the target in addition to slowing it down (text says it now hits the target's power supply, not engines)...GRG is particulary useful against SBs, and the weapon cooldown debuff makes this ability still useful even in the late game...I would note that this ability requires the Kol to face it's target still, which I'd say easily prevents this from being OP...

Flak burst is more viable at earlier levels (greater range, more damage), but the same at level 3...AM cost I'd say is fine given that GRG is cheaper and adaptive forcefield is passive...

Finest hour does not provide quite the AM regen it used to...this is because the Kol actually can use all 3 of its abilities given the AM changes...instead, finest hour provides a slightly better hull boost, giving it some more tanking power (which is crucial considering that TEC have nothing to compete with overseers and repulsion for protecting caps)...

I will say from experience that the Kol is not a bad lead for the TEC, though I'd still prefer a Sova or Akkan...GRG is very useful early on for killing kiting carriers (remember that battleships are faster now)...flak burst is pretty handy if you can use it 2 or 3 times (which is very viable now)...2 Kols with flak burst can really dent the enemy's SC, and with adaptive forcefield being passive, Kols are very resilient ships even before lvl 6...

TEC should be able to feed a new faction with their credits after they research "insurgency".  This would be the "freedom fighters".  The TEC would send credits to an enemy planet that is below 50% allegiance (new ability) and would foster an insurgency there.  The simplicity and addition to strategy would become a mean new ability, and quite worth it imo. 

How can an empire defend itself if it is being eaten from within?  This would also 'feel' like it was supposed to.

The more credits they feed to the enemy, the bigger the wave of enemy units.  This would wreak havoc on fast expansion and give more use to current defensive structures.

The problem with paying pirates or insurgents or whoever to do your dirty work is that you can sit there with very little fleet maintenance while the other faction not only has more fleet maintenance, but has to invest heavily in replenishing losses and building defenses on every planet...

Pocket TEC players are fine as is...I don't think we need to increase their economic potential anymore, and making insurgents liked paid pirate raids would do just that...

This wouldn't be difficult to implement at all.  The TEC player would select an enemy planet below 50% allegiance to the enemy. The player could then buy certain "gift packages" of units at that planet; the more they spend on the planet the bigger the spawn.  Since so many other races are good at controlling the TEC and destroying their fleet cohesion in the late game, this would be a way for the TEC to spawn fleets almost anywhere.  When used in conjunction with an advent player spamming their cannon this could also work well as a late game combo.   

Opening up a capable fleet in the end game into the heart of enemy territory can be really devastating.  TEC usually has a TON of credits to blow, so why not blow them on a second, third, and fourth front?  This can draw an players attention to the trouble locations and it will suck enemy resources and time to clean this up. 

The player could open up a second front which can be really really useful in the late game.  The units produced would be NORMAL non pirate units.  The faction would be unique to each and every planet.  So the TEC player doesn't need to have a special drop down menu if they only need to select the enemy planet to invest their resources.  Naturally the enemy won't get any of these resources.

This also fits with the TEC, as this is a "gang up" tactic and inciting multiple insurgencies across the map would be really beneficial.  As to the details, insurgency ship costs should be balanced with the end game and in my opinion be a bit cheaper depending upon how disloyal the enemy planet is.  Say the enemy planet is 25% loyal to the enemy.  The TEC would get a 50% discount on unit production (a 50% loyalty would make unit costs normal).

Play testing can get rid of any OP ability.

as advent, if the TEC are 3 jumps away (with a competent player, Efe comes to mind) you are dead, just that simple.  bum rush cobalts and sovas and your goose is cooked.

You're looking at 3 military labs, but I'm talking early than that, before Hoshikos and Illuminators are involved...if you're looking at a 4v4 or 5v5, there are good odds major engagements and rushes will be going on before Hoshikos and illuminators are really out there...

At this point, a frontline TEC or Vasari player will easily have LRMs or Kanraks...whether a frontline player has 3 military labs or not is dependent on whether they needed to colonize volcanic/ice planets...the advantage Vasari have here is that they only need on military lab to get kanraks, so they can get by with 2 civ and 1 mil lab early on while TEC may need 2 of each...

If you're a frontline Advent player and your closest enemy is only 3 jumps away, they'll be knocking on your door before you have illuminators and before they have hoshikos...the only reason I'd see anyone having 3 military labs this early is if they're suicide and rushing non-vasari SBs or they have a ton of asteroids that require little upfront investment to colonize...

A TEC Sova or Marza rush can be devastating, but I'd much rather face that early on than a double skirantra rush or skirantra + space egg...the key difference between the TEC and the Vasari is that scramble bombers and PM upgrades (which I see Vasari frontliners research immediately all the time) are more devastating to Advent capital ships...sure, so are LRMs, but you can at least kill LRMs...trying to kill 2 kiting skirantras or one skirantra and one space egg using nano-disassemblers is an absolute bitch...even with halcyons, there are good odds you'll have to pull them out lest you lose them...

In my experience, the military assets of a front-liner are more valuable than their economy...embargo is devastating but it doesn't force your capital ships to immediately run and if someone does happen to feed you, you have at least a chance in an early Advent vs. TEC match up...if you face Vasari early on, you will almost always have to retreat immediately just to save your first (and maybe 2nd) capital ship...

If you got the impression that I thought TEC vs Advent early on was a fair match, my apologies for the misunderstanding...TEC obviously are much better off early on than Advent but at least Advent have something late game to hang over their head assuming they survive that long...ultimately, I'd rather face an early TEC rush than an early Vasari rush if I am advent...