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Seleuceia
Seleuceia
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How to Make Planetary Defense Vessels

April 11, 2012 12:55:11 PM from Sins of a Solar Empire ForumsSins of a Solar Empire Forums

The goal here is to make ships that stay in a gravity well and only defend that one planet...

Disabling the phase drives works great for humans, but the AI in its infinite wisdom still tries to phase jump those units (which results in not only those ships, but entire fleets just sitting indefinitely)....it would be really great if such units could be used by the AI intelligently...

I am hoping someone has tried this before and may know of a good system for making it work...I've tried messing with the stat and role types but so far nothing has worked very well...

I've used various combinations of the role type and stat type given to other deployed "frigates" such as the Sova's combat turrets or the new Vasari Battleship's nanite "frigates", but at some point the AI still merges these things with its fleet and tries to jump them....

Changing the stat type to the same as a planet constructor keeps the ship from ever trying to leave the gravity well unless enemy ships enter it, which sort of defeats the entire point of these things....having a roletype of planet constructor is even worse as the ships will also try to build modules (which of course, they obviously can't)...

Any help or suggestions would be much appreciated...

And as a side note, using a squadron instead I don't think is going to work unless someone knows how to make frigate sized SC that don't crash the game (I myself have tried and have not had any luck)....

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Seleuceia
GoaFan77
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Reply #1 April 11, 2012 3:29:18 PM
from Sins of a Solar Empire ForumsSins of a Solar Empire Forums

I didn't think there were actual size limits to fighter... interesting. Are you sure it wasn't something else?

Well here's a crazy one for you... remove them entirely and replace with a tactical structure that has an ability that uses them as particle effects.

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Seleuceia
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Reply #2 April 11, 2012 5:52:30 PM
from Sins of a Solar Empire ForumsSins of a Solar Empire Forums

Quoting GoaFan77,
reply 1
Are you sure it wasn't something else?

Seconding this; having abilities on the squadron or SC entity might be causing crashes.

Quoting GoaFan77,
reply 1
Well here's a crazy one for you... remove them entirely and replace with a tactical structure that has an ability that uses them as particle effects.

Or better, flat out make it a regular tactical structure, but give it a variant of the Vasari's micro-phase jumps, one which has less range, so it takes a certain number of "steps" to reach a medium distance location.

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Seleuceia
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Reply #3 April 11, 2012 8:50:24 PM
from Sins of a Solar Empire ForumsSins of a Solar Empire Forums

So Lavo, I'm guessing you tried to make Corvettes SC as well?  I get some "vector" error or whatever about a second or two after they launch...

Tried launching them from a sova, a percheron, and a hangar...neither worked...haven't tried spawning a squad from a planet though I'm going to guess that won't work either...

Haven't tried turning off the abilities though...

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Seleuceia
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Reply #4 April 11, 2012 8:55:47 PM
from Sins of a Solar Empire ForumsSins of a Solar Empire Forums

Fighters are notoriously picky entities. They'll crash with shields, most abilities, or in what sounds more likely with that error, certain speed/acceleration values. Try copy/pasting fighter speeds/turn values/mass first, and see if that fixed it, then you can start the painful process of adjusting the numbers one by one and seeing what causes the crash.

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Seleuceia
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Reply #5 April 11, 2012 8:56:38 PM
from Sins of a Solar Empire ForumsSins of a Solar Empire Forums

Dammit...now I have to do work....

I forgot about the numerical "pickiness" of SC though, good catch...though, I did use the TEC fighter as a template, copying only the weapons and meshes (and some other graphical/string things)...maybe SC can't have multiple weapons??? Now that I think of it, I don't think I even copied over the abilities...

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Seleuceia
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Reply #6 April 11, 2012 9:05:53 PM
from Sins of a Solar Empire ForumsSins of a Solar Empire Forums

Quoting Seleuceia,
reply 5
I forgot about the numerical "pickiness" of SC though, good catch...though, I did use the TEC fighter as a template, copying only the weapons and meshes (and some other graphical/string things)...maybe SC can't have multiple weapons??? Now that I think of it, I don't think I even copied over the abilities...

They can, I have a fighter with three weapons... and come to think of it, at first it was larger than a corvette too (before I scaled down the meshes they tend to be frigate sized).

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Seleuceia
Sinperium
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Reply #7 April 11, 2012 9:26:56 PM
from Sins of a Solar Empire ForumsSins of a Solar Empire Forums

I've had frigate-sized fighters with multiple weapons firing from different banks and no issues.  The acceleration values do seem to be assigned fairly static slots--best to use values already seen on strike craft or other ships as a base--rather than engineering all new random ones.

I've been running a mini-mod with a corvette like bomber in it for some time with the caveat being the abilities have to be passive AoE's.

As to a native, non jumping ship that doesn't confuse the AI--try turret values in as many places as possible--including the role type.  My Threshold mod has non-jumping units in it but I haven't really tweaked on the AI roles for it yet.

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Seleuceia
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Reply #8 April 11, 2012 10:59:10 PM
from Sins of a Solar Empire ForumsSins of a Solar Empire Forums

If I try to make a squadron of corvettes, as soon as the ship spawns I get this error several times:

Assert @ C:\Projects\P4\SinsRebellion\SteamPublicBeta\CodeSource\Engine/DataStructures/FixedVector.h(157)

m_CurrentSize < MAX_SIZE

Folowed by this error:

Assert @ C:\Projects\P4\SinsRebellion\SteamPublicBeta\CodeSource\GS/Render/Effect/ExplosionEffect.cpp(123)

owner == NULL

Don't know what to do here...

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Seleuceia
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Reply #9 April 11, 2012 11:05:19 PM
from Sins of a Solar Empire ForumsSins of a Solar Empire Forums

Quoting Seleuceia,
reply 8
Don't know what to do here...

And that's only by changing the mesh? Try gutting out the mesh points so that only a single engine is left.

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Seleuceia
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Reply #10 April 11, 2012 11:35:22 PM
from Sins of a Solar Empire ForumsSins of a Solar Empire Forums

I have tried changing only the mesh, and I'll get even more errors than that...the obvious ones (like the index issues with weapons) can be easily fixed, but I don't know how to deal with those two errors...

I have no idea how to "gut the mesh points"...while I understand the principle of what you mean, I myself have no 3D program or experience with meshes...

Quoting Sinperium,
reply 7
I've been running a mini-mod with a corvette like bomber in it for some time with the caveat being the abilities have to be passive AoE's.

When you say this, do you mean you are actually using the corvette mesh from rebellion?  Or you are just mimicking the "essence" of corvettes with abilities?

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Seleuceia
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Reply #11 April 11, 2012 11:41:37 PM
from Sins of a Solar Empire ForumsSins of a Solar Empire Forums

Quoting Seleuceia,
reply 10
I have no idea how to "gut the mesh points"...while I understand the principle of what you mean, I myself have no 3D program or experience with meshes...

Convert the mesh to text like an entity file and make a copy of it. In the mesh file, there's a section listing the position of all the main points. Delete them all and see if that helps anything. If it does, begin adding them back one at a time until you find out which one caused the problem, and hopefully it won't be too important.

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Seleuceia
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Reply #12 April 11, 2012 11:48:35 PM
from Sins of a Solar Empire ForumsSins of a Solar Empire Forums

If they have the abilities that corvettes currently posses--unmodified--they will crash.  The abilities don't work with squadrons as provided.

There are also changes between Rebellion and stock Sins so entities modified from one and transferred to the other may be a problem and the same with meshes.

Your best bet is to make a strike craft in the game version of your choice into a corvette and modify the abilities to work with strike craft limitations.

I think you know this--it just isn't clear to me what you have and haven't done fully.

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Seleuceia
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Reply #13 April 12, 2012 12:09:26 AM
from Sins of a Solar Empire ForumsSins of a Solar Empire Forums

Quoting GoaFan77,
reply 11
Convert the mesh to text like an entity file and make a copy of it.

WOW...I feel like a complete moron...I never knew those were just text files...

Anyway, I deleted all of them except the weapons, and the game didn't crash (yet)...so, I'll add them back one at a time and see how it goes...thanks for your help Goa!

Quoting Sinperium,
reply 7
As to a native, non jumping ship that doesn't confuse the AI--try turret values in as many places as possible--including the role type.  My Threshold mod has non-jumping units in it but I haven't really tweaked on the AI roles for it yet.

I tried using the turret stat count type but it didn't help...the ships still try to run away as soon as an enemy ship enters the gravity well...obviously, putting in "WEAPONDEFENSE" for the roletype didn't work either...if you manage to find a combination of stat and/or role types that work, please let me know!

 

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Seleuceia
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Reply #14 April 12, 2012 1:06:55 AM
from Sins of a Solar Empire ForumsSins of a Solar Empire Forums

Well I figured out part of the problem...

As you may recall, the TEC corvette has 8 thrusters....the 4 smaller ones, if enabled in the mesh file, each throw an error (for a total of four "vector" errors)...however, that 5th error in regards to the explosion doesn't occur if you only have one of the 4 thrusters enabled...strange...

Aesthetically, what also bothers me is that the "Corvette" uses that lame SC exhaust trail instead of the nicer frigate corvette one...

exhaustTrailTextureName "ExhaustTrail"

Not sure what I could change this line to, but I feel it's the key...

Changing this line:

exhaustParticleSystemName "Exhaust_TechCorvette"

Doesn't seem to do anything, at least not that I can tell....

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Reply #15 April 12, 2012 1:19:54 AM
from Sins of a Solar Empire ForumsSins of a Solar Empire Forums

Quoting Seleuceia,
reply 13
WOW...I feel like a complete moron...I never knew those were just text files...

Anyway, I deleted all of them except the weapons, and the game didn't crash (yet)...so, I'll add them back one at a time and see how it goes...thanks for your help Goa!

I'm glad the pain I suffered of figuring out how to change mesh points with only the .mesh files is of use to some people. The real fun part is adding entirely new points or changing positions...

Quoting Seleuceia,
reply 14
As you may recall, the TEC corvette has 8 thrusters....the 4 smaller ones, if enabled in the mesh file, each through an error (for a total of four "vector" errors)...however, that 5th error in regards to the explosion doesn't occur if you only have one of the 4 thrusters enabled...strange...

Yeah, I suspected it was a mesh point limit of some kind...

Quoting Seleuceia,
reply 14
Aesthetically, what also bothers me is that the "Corvette" uses that lame SC exhaust trail instead of the nicer frigate corvette one...

Indeed it would. For everything I've done with strikecraft when I just deleted all the engine points if I didn't like it, but that wouldn't work with TEC corvettes. Maybe convert the engine points to ability points and give it an ability that plays a persistent effect?

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Reply #16 April 12, 2012 1:55:14 AM
from Sins of a Solar Empire ForumsSins of a Solar Empire Forums

Quoting GoaFan77,
reply 15
Maybe convert the engine points to ability points and give it an ability that plays a persistent effect?

Or maybe give it a particle effect or two?

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Seleuceia
Sinperium
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Reply #17 April 12, 2012 2:30:21 AM
from Sins of a Solar Empire ForumsSins of a Solar Empire Forums

@GoaFan

Until you told me about hand editing meshes, I had no hope of modelling in Sins.  What's astounding is in the dozens of questions I asked every few months it took over a year for someone to say it.

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Reply #18 April 12, 2012 2:14:14 PM
from Sins of a Solar Empire ForumsSins of a Solar Empire Forums

spawn them as temporary frigates from something like a hangar bay and use the module constructor role type which will keep them from trying to phase jump out.

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Reply #19 April 12, 2012 2:49:01 PM
from Sins of a Solar Empire ForumsSins of a Solar Empire Forums

Quoting ZombiesRus5,
reply 18
use the module constructor role type which will keep them from trying to phase jump out.

I tried this....if you set the roletype to module constructor, your 2nd and 3rd ability slots are automatically filled by the purple logistic/tactical build buttons...additionally, the ships will continually try and construct structures independent of what their first ability is, which is about as crippling as them indefinitely sitting at the edge of a gravity well...

In general, either the ships try to join fleets and jump or whenever an enemy enters the gravity well, they go to "hold formation" and try to phase jump away (I guess to retreat?)...the "combat" roletypes like "light" or "heavy" exhibit the former behavior while the non-combat exhibit the latter...

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Reply #20 April 12, 2012 4:01:50 PM
from Sins of a Solar Empire ForumsSins of a Solar Empire Forums

Quoting Seleuceia,
reply 19

Quoting ZombiesRus5, reply 18use the module constructor role type which will keep them from trying to phase jump out.

I tried this....if you set the roletype to module constructor, your 2nd and 3rd ability slots are automatically filled by the purple logistic/tactical build buttons...additionally, the ships will continually try and construct structures independent of what their first ability is, which is about as crippling as them indefinitely sitting at the edge of a gravity well...

In general, either the ships try to join fleets and jump or whenever an enemy enters the gravity well, they go to "hold formation" and try to phase jump away (I guess to retreat?)...the "combat" roletypes like "light" or "heavy" exhibit the former behavior while the non-combat exhibit the latter...

That's odd. I would have assumed without the build ability they wouldn't build 

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Reply #21 April 12, 2012 4:12:51 PM
from Sins of a Solar Empire ForumsSins of a Solar Empire Forums

If the ship has an ability in slot one, it will try to do that ability on any structure in need of constructing...if it doesn't have an ability, it crashes as soon as it is in the hands of the AI...

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Reply #22 April 12, 2012 4:20:40 PM
from Sins of a Solar Empire ForumsSins of a Solar Empire Forums

Quoting Seleuceia,
reply 21
If the ship has an ability in slot one, it will try to do that ability on any structure in need of constructing...if it doesn't have an ability, it crashes as soon as it is in the hands of the AI...

I guess I'm not to surprised. Lots of hard coded AI nuances like this...

Though now I want to make the game mini-dump to see it first hand

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Reply #23 April 12, 2012 4:42:26 PM
from Sins of a Solar Empire ForumsSins of a Solar Empire Forums

ERRRRR....this is frustrating...

I can do this via squadrons, but then I have shitty exhaust trails and limited ability usage (and possibly memory leaks)...

I can do this via frigates, but then the AI can't use them at all...

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Reply #24 April 12, 2012 5:02:10 PM
from Sins of a Solar Empire ForumsSins of a Solar Empire Forums

Quoting Seleuceia,
reply 23
ERRRRR....this is frustrating...

I can do this via squadrons, but then I have shitty exhaust trails and limited ability usage (and possibly memory leaks)...

I can do this via frigates, but then the AI can't use them at all...

I gave up on moving turrets because of the AI not understanding disabled phase jump.

I was already looking at putting weapons on some factions constructors for planetary defense. I don't mind if they're given a build order and break off for this personally.

 

There is one other way this could be done, though of course it has it's downsides too. Deploying the moveable planetary defense as a starbase. You can deploy as many of these as you want by spawning the constructor with a passive deploy, but you obviously won't be able to deploy your factions starbase while these guys are around. Would need a timer ability on it to make them dead so you don't clutter things up. (I'm doing something similar with 2-3 capturable moon bases on planets).

 

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