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ARESIV

Join Date 05/2011

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How to buff TEC Loyalists?

It is no secret that the TEC Loyalists are quite out of favor on ICQ. What needs to be done to make them a competive choice again?

First let me point us the largest general issues at hand:

The TEC Loyalists are supposed to be the best defensive faction - however in reality they are not. Wail of the Sacrificed and jump capable starbases are much more useful in 99 % of all defensive situations. Vasari fleet with phase stabilizers make invading their territory extremely difficult.
There is very little, the TEC Loyalists do better than the TEC Rebels. Unfortunatly, most of those advantages are highly situational, making TEC Rebels a superior choice in any MP game with random starting positions - which is the case in 99%.
In the earlier stages of the game, it is all about expansion. As TEC Loyalist do actually expand less easy than TEC Rebels, the fewer planets they hold would need to be considerable more difficult to take away, which they are not.
TEC Rebel defense is only marginally weaker than TEC Loyalist defense, ruining the point of choosing Loyalists. Rebels Gaus upgrade actually improves their Titan, further adding to its already ruthless combat potential.
The Ankylon is not bad... but the Ragnarov is awesome.. and unlike the Ankylon it is powerful from level 1 to 10 and at any stage of the game. Due to its poor firepower and comparable low damaging AoE ability it also takes quite a while to rank up. And it cannot protect your planets. The enemy fleet will jump in, kill your fleet, bomb the planet into submission, recolonze it and then after all that is done they will deal with your Ankylon. Not before, that would be a waste of time as it is indeed quite durable. But is is no threat on its own and on lower levels its fleet supporting ability group shield is most unimpressive.
Twin starbases are wonderful in theory, but in practise even with the cost reducation they are quite costly structures. By the time you have enough money to build those your enemy will likely field a bomber fleet that will kill a fully upgraded starbase in 2 passes, ruining the entire point of building them in the first place. Yes, twin fortresses with an Ankylon on ultimate will vapourize anything in no time.... assuming that anything is stupid enough to get in range... which doesnt happen too often.

My ideas would be:

Generaly, we need to think about something that bring TEC Loyalist to the top when it comes to defense. Before Wail and before Vasari moving starbase.
Increased planet health: We are the turtle in faction, so lets turtle in. I suggest a 3 staged research for early game balancing. Stage 1 adds 750 hit points, stage 2 adds 1500 and stage 3 adds 2500 planet hitpoints. Lets make planet bombing more time consuming... the longer they need to stay close to our starbases, the better.
Change Milia Weapons and Milita armor from a slight disadvantage for the invader to something that makes fighting in a TEC Loyalists gravity well a very bad idea.

Change Milita weapons and armor into a single research and make it that way:
2 Military Labs: Research subject "Milita": Same as now Level 1 on both of Militia Armor and weapons ---> slight early game buff but not op in the early game.
3 Military Labs: Like current level 2 in both milita armor and weapons --> a notable effect, but nothing game changing.
4 Add a third level with similar armor and firepower increases to "Militia". So it gets a bit more powerful. Price it so that it cannot be reached to early.
5. Military Labs: Add a fourth level to it. Same increase as from 2 to 3 or perhaps even another 20 % extra. Make it costly.

Result: It gets more and more costly to fight an TEC Loyalist in his own gravity wells, compensating for his weaker expansion.
Trade upgrade: TEC Loyalist will have fewer planets than their Rebel counterpart. We need to compensate for that with an economy that can be just as strong with fewer planets. Simple solution: Add another level to development mandate - problem solved.
Give the TEC Loyal starbase the ability to deal with mass strikecraft (bombers): With bomber spam being the dominant late game strategy, there is little point in having a starbase instead of more carriers of your own. What about giving the TEC Loyalist Starbase an upgrade that makes bomber spamming it into dust a lot more harder? I thought about something like this:

"Magnetic Protection Field" Extremely powerful electro magnets project a area arround the starbase, making it impossible for any strike craft, allied or enemy to enter firing range to the starbase. Basically repulsion but just for strikecrafts. It comes with a price of course, the same electro magnets kill the target tracking sensors of all your missiles, so while this effect is active, the starbase cannot fire its missile batteries.

Numbers - up for further discussion:

Ability duration: 60 seconds
Ability cooldown: 70 seconds
Missile launch disabled for: 60 seconds
Antimatter cost: 100

Of course, this would be a quite powerful ability. But think about it, it would adress several issues in the current gameplay.

- Nobody uses anti structure cruisers, as bombers do their job, just better.

- Makes Twin Fortresses many times more powerful because know you actually have to engage them directly instead of sitting on the far side of the gravity well and waiting until your bomber have killed the starbases. Make no error, attacking the starbases with something they can actually retilate against is a very costly thing. And that is exactly what TEC Loyalist are about.

"The very notion of entering one of our gravity wells, spreads fear into the hearts of our enemies"

- The TEC Loyalist starbase is only slightly better than the TEC Rebel starbase, making the point of the faction moot at the moment. TEC Rebels are far better offensive wise with very little loss on the defensive front.

- NOTICE: This will not make the TEC Loyalist Starbase invulnerable to bomber spam. It will just drastically increase the time needed to destroy it by bombers alone. The bombers still can ravage anything else in the gravity well as the magnetic affect area would just protect the starbase.

- Big Red Button and starbase weapon upgrades actually useful as now the enemy will have to come into range to destroy the starbase in reasonable time.

- far less overal bomber spam in any game with at least one TEC Loyalist in it. IMHO good for the game overall.
Battlefield promotions: Actually I quite like the idea of this. It comes at Tech Level 2. Unfortunatly, at this tech level you usually will be on the offensive. What about moving it to Tech 4 with an increased effect? BTW, does it affect the Titan, too?
Ankylon Titan: In many ways the Ankylon is the new Kol as it in many ways it suffers from similar weaknesses.

- Lack of firepower and difficulty to use that firepower effectivly. Not only is the total damage output unimpressive for a ship this size but the broadside nature weakens it even further.

Due the the very limited arc of the beams weapons the Ankylon usually fires only a grand total of 8 Laser Cannons and a few low damage missiles most of the time. To be effective your enemies needs to totally surround it, something no human player will do for obvious reasons. But even if the other player is not using any fleet control, in most cases, formations end up the way that the Ankylon can only use one of its four weapon carrying sides. Moving it into the heart of the enemy formation takes time in which the ship has even less total DPS output and which can be easily countered.

- This lack of effective firepower make the rank up process slow and time consuming.... time you do not have in a multiplayer game.

- It is though.. very tough... but that alone is not enough to be a good warship. Due to its poor firepower, it can and will be easily ignored by any smart enemy.

You are not going to happily bomb a planet while there is a Ragnarov Titan in this gravity well pounding your fleet to pieces... the Ankylon on the other hand can be completly ignored as it has no huge damaging AoE ability and poor firepower.

- Naturally the Ankylon is compared to the Ragnarov and sadly it looses that comparsion most of the time.

For a forward facing giant gun, the Ragnarov Titan has an very large firing arc for its devastating gaus guns.... giving it better 360 degree coverage than the Ankylon. Forget the rail gun... the gaus guns are what make the Ragnarov deadly.. because against them there is no escape and they do only slightly less damage than the main rail gun. Not to mention that thanks to advanced maneuvering it is actually quite difficult to flank a Ragnarov.

For all this weaknesses, it needs to compensate.... and it should compensate for that with abilites... which sadly it doesnt until it reaches at least Level 6.

- Disruption Matrix: Poor damage output below Level 4 of the ability, short ability disable duration... not usefull below Level 3. Does not affect enemy Titans. EDIT: Since patch 1.4 it does affect enemy titans, too.

- Furios Defense: This is the ability that make the Ankylon so tough. It is quite fine... it is the other abilities that need to be changed as toughness alone is not enough.

- Group Shield: Worthless below Level 3... short duration... only makes a difference when used on starbases below maximum level, Cap ships wont survive much longer due to focus firing.

- Inspire and Impair: Powerful.. but try to get that Ankylon to Level 6 first... also it DOES NOT AFFECT enemy titans.... which drastically impairs it usefulness at this stage of the game. Coronata Surpression aura affects enemy titans... Ragnarovs Overcharge effects enemy titans.... Inspire and Impair does not. With the dissapointing result that that Level 6 Ragnarov will still kill your Level 6 Ankylon.... without any trouble.

My suggested Titan changes:

- Disruption Matrix: perhaps a slight increase in damage but more important, increase the ammount of time it disables enemy abilities.

- Furious Defense: For the sake of looks, it should "minorly" affect shields, too. I said minorly... it did affect the shields majorly in BETA... making it unkillable. However, right now the shields on the Ankylon are basically just for the looks... in 99 % of all combat situations the Ankylon shields are down.

- Group Shield: Increase the duration... so that in the world of focus fire it makes a difference.

- Inspire and Impair: Make it affect enemy and allied titans. Please. You can never go on the offensive against TEC Rebels when they can potshot your Titan like he is made out of paper. Please consider the average repair ability of a late game fleet... the Ankylon needs to be affected by it, otherwise it weapon hardly make a dent into a capital ship, let alone an enemy titan (with fleet, mind you).

I have mentioned it a few times before... give the beam damage of the TEC Rebels to the TEC Loyals. Rebels have no use for it, Loyals do. The Ankylon could certainly use more powerfull beams.

Those changes would imho bring the TEC Loyalists to competive level again.

Feel free to add your thoughts on the matter.

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GoaFan77

Join Date 10/2008

+629

Well they said disruption matrix not affecting titans was a bug, so that will get fixed. Novalith rushing is the only real strategy to use them for, though at least they can do that well.

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Great reading, good ideas.

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Maybe not all of those changes, but some of them would definitely make playing against a TEC loyalist a much more frightening proposition.

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To keep in flavor I think any such buffs should focus on boosting Border conflicts or mounting counteroffensives on enemies that attack you first. Perhaps something like:

Counter Deployment: In addition to current effects, when the last enemy leaves a friendly gravity well, all ships in that gavity well(but not structures) deal 15% increased damage for 10 minutes.

Battlefield Promotion: Increase effects to +10/20% experience gain Rate, additionally grants it's effects to ships in neutral & hostile gravity wells as you control an adjacent gravity well(so you can fight 1 well outside your borders and still level up fast).

Militia weapons/armor: Additionally grants 1/2 their bonus to ships in neutral & hostile gravity wells as you control an adjacent gravity well(likewise grants half of bonuses in border skirmishes just outside your territory).

Buffing Novalith Deregulation would also be an easy way to give the TEC loyals some counteroffensive capability.

Also, the TEC loyals have a few techs that I can't fathom why they are such a high tier. Hardened Defenses is a prime example- at only 2 tiers higher the Vasari Rebels get +25% hull & +5 armor to everything. Hardened Defenses only gives 2 armor and 30% hull to tactical structures alone- It could easily be put in the available T2 defense slot and still be balanced. This would make even early game TEC loyal defensive structures substantially more resilient then any other faction.

As for the Ankylon:

Disrution Matrix: I'm a bit Leery of increasing the Disable time, as that already has some massive combo potential with other AoE damage such as Missile Barrage(pretty much guarantees 13 seconds of no interruption). What about instead just adding "all effected ships suffer 200% slower ability cooldowns for duration" in addition to the current silence. This way any abilities that were on cooldown at the start of disruption matrix get 4-8 seconds added to their cooldown(which in many cases is similar to a longer disable). Not to mention this debuff could be applied to enemy titans unlike the disable.

Furious Defense: any buff here is welcome- this ability feels pathetic in comparison to the Kultorask's Nano-leech.

Area Group Shield: Not sure I really agree this needs a buff- It's very strong as is, and frankly pretty much all such large damage reductions have downtime between their duration and recast.

Inspire and Impair: Agreed. Titans are one of the largest sources of late rgame damage and this ability not effecting them is an oversight. That said, the percentages may need some adjustment +/- 50-100% firing rate is an enormous swing for a titan. Perhaps have the ability have different percentile bonuses for titans?

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It is no secret that the TEC Loyalists are quite out of favor on ICQ. What needs to be done to make them a competive choice again?

The post is very good and informative. I need to disagree with the central thesis, however. In fact, some excellent players do choose TEC Loyalists. I was surprised aboutey this, so I thought about it for a while. I prefer TEC rebels myself. But why do excellent players choose the Loyalists? It all comes down to the defensive titan. I watch their games and watch what they do with their titan. They make a great offensive fleet and then make it indestructible with the titan. They win a lot of battles and do very well in games. So we need to keep this in mind. Surely, TEC loyalist is not the highest priority for a fix, then. That dubious distinction would go to Vasari Rebel, which are not allowed in ICO. Next in line would be the Advent Loyalist --- talk about a race that NOBODY chooses. The Vasari Loyalist are allowed on ICO but of course are still OP'd. So those would be the first three fixes. Then we could get into the details, as outlined in this thread, about whether the TEC loyalists need a buff or not. I'd be hard pressed to say whether Advent Rebels or TEC Loyalists are better, though I'd say TEC Rebels are better than both --- notwithstanding that several well-known excellent players do great jobs with the Loyalist titan. Could it be that the Loyalists require a high skill level to play but that, with that skill, they are better than the Rebels?

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Quoting bilun,

reply 5

Some good ideas in here. Another thing I'd like to see is for the TEC loyals to be given *Some* offensive capability- they are the premier defensive faction, but let's face it: you need to attack to win.

To keep in flavor I think any such buffs should focus on boosting Border conflicts or mounting counteroffensives on enemies that attack you first. Perhaps something like:

Counter Deployment: In addition to current effects, when the last enemy leaves a friendly gravity well, all ships in that gavity well(but not structures) deal 15% increased damage for 10 minutes.

Battlefield Promotion: Increase effects to +10/20% experience gain Rate, additionally grants it's effects to ships in neutral & hostile gravity wells as you control an adjacent gravity well(so you can fight 1 well outside your borders and still level up fast).

Militia weapons/armor: Additionally grants 1/2 their bonus to ships in neutral & hostile gravity wells as you control an adjacent gravity well(likewise grants half of bonuses in border skirmishes just outside your territory).

Buffing Novalith Deregulation would also be an easy way to give the TEC loyals some counteroffensive capability.

Also, the TEC loyals have a few techs that I can't fathom why they are such a high tier. Hardened Defenses is a prime example- at only 2 tiers higher the Vasari Rebels get +25% hull & +5 armor to everything. Hardened Defenses only gives 2 armor and 30% hull to tactical structures alone- It could easily be put in the available T2 defense slot and still be balanced. This would make even early game TEC loyal defensive structures substantially more resilient then any other faction.

As for the Ankylon:

Disrution Matrix: I'm a bit Leery of increasing the Disable time, as that already has some massive combo potential with other AoE damage such as Missile Barrage(pretty much guarantees 13 seconds of no interruption). What about instead just adding "all effected ships suffer 200% slower ability cooldowns for duration" in addition to the current silence. This way any abilities that were on cooldown at the start of disruption matrix get 4-8 seconds added to their cooldown(which in many cases is similar to a longer disable). Not to mention this debuff could be applied to enemy titans unlike the disable.

Furious Defense: any buff here is welcome- this ability feels pathetic in comparison to the Kultorask's Nano-leech.

Area Group Shield: Not sure I really agree this needs a buff- It's very strong as is, and frankly pretty much all such large damage reductions have downtime between their duration and recast.

Inspire and Impair: Agreed. Titans are one of the largest sources of late rgame damage and this ability not effecting them is an oversight. That said, the percentages may need some adjustment +/- 50-100% firing rate is an enormous swing for a titan. Perhaps have the ability have different percentile bonuses for titans?

I like those ideas!

Disruption Matrix. Could be interesting and could compensate for its comparable low damage potential.

Furious Defense: We have to be careful about buffing it. Remember Beta 1? The Ankylon was invincible. Nothing could harm it back then. We should not forget that the ability itself is very powerful as it comes into effect after shields, shield mitigation and armor all have reduced incoming damage.

Ability User : Ankylon

Ability type : Active

Antimatter cost : 70 -> 65 -> 60 -> 55

Cooldown time : 90

Duration : 60

Own gravity well:

Hull repaired/sec : 30.0 -> 40.0 -> 50.0 -> 60.0

Damage output : 35% -> 45% -> 55% -> 65%

Not own gravity well:

Hull repaired/sec : 15.0 -> 20.0 -> 25.0 -> 30.0

Damage output : 25% -> 35% -> 45% -> 55%

Notice that the damage output doesnt change much when outside of an owned gravity well, what changes considerable is the amount of repaired hull. At maximum level even a level 10 Ragnarov will take ages to do more than superficial damage to an Ankylon with that upgrade and in its own gravity well. The amount of firepower that is needed to overcome those 60 hull repairs second is tremendous, thanks to the extremely heavy armor and shield mitigation.

So any buff here should be firepower only. Imho the values could be something like this:

Own gravity well:

Hull repaired/sec : 30.0 -> 40.0 -> 50.0 -> 60.0 - no changes

Damage output : 60% -> 70% -> 85% -> 100% - a major increase in firepower to make the Defense truely furios

Not own gravity well:

Hull repaired/sec : 15.0 -> 20.0 -> 25.0 -> 30.0 - no changes

Damage output : 35% -> 45% -> 55% -> 65% - the current in gravity well values for neutral wells. Would imho fix most of the firepower related issues.

The Ankylon has not a durability problem. Its problem is that besides being durable it hasnt much to offer, especially not on the lower levels.

Group Shield: No doubt it is powerful - but only on the higher levels. Main problem is:

Early game: Small effect, to short duration.... will rarely make a difference

Late game: Good effect, acceptable duration - But compared to the crushing firepower your enemy will field at this time.... not enough to make much of a difference on anything but high level capital ships or starbases. And that is to little for a effect that requires such an high level Titan.

Inspire and Impair: Totally agree. Also agree about the lower percentages.... what about:

Level 1 of I&I: 50 % fire rate reduction for everyting

Level 2 of I&I: 75 % fire rate reduction.... but only 60 % for an enemy Titan

Still the same increase in firerate for all own ships and all own Titans.

Now imagine an attack on an TEC Loyalist... First off Furios Defense buffs the Ankylon weapons damage and then I&I bring its firepower up to a level that truely make your enemy wish to run the other way. The stack effect would of course be weaker when outside your own gravity wells, but the Ankylon actually would have some teeth outside your territory.

Quoting candido-,

reply 6

It is no secret that the TEC Loyalists are quite out of favor on ICQ. What needs to be done to make them a competive choice again?

The post is very good and informative. I need to disagree with the central thesis, however. In fact, some excellent players do choose TEC Loyalists. I was surprised aboutey this, so I thought about it for a while. I prefer TEC rebels myself. But why do excellent players choose the Loyalists? It all comes down to the defensive titan. I watch their games and watch what they do with their titan. They make a great offensive fleet and then make it indestructible with the titan. They win a lot of battles and do very well in games. So we need to keep this in mind. Surely, TEC loyalist is not the highest priority for a fix, then. That dubious distinction would go to Vasari Rebel, which are not allowed in ICO. Next in line would be the Advent Loyalist --- talk about a race that NOBODY chooses. The Vasari Loyalist are allowed on ICO but of course are still OP'd. So those would be the first three fixes. Then we could get into the details, as outlined in this thread, about whether the TEC loyalists need a buff or not. I'd be hard pressed to say whether Advent Rebels or TEC Loyalists are better, though I'd say TEC Rebels are better than both --- notwithstanding that several well-known excellent players do great jobs with the Loyalist titan. Could it be that the Loyalists require a high skill level to play but that, with that skill, they are better than the Rebels?

Thank you.

Define excellent players? I have yet to see anyone with more than 20 games choosing TEC Loyals in competive Multiplayer. Some replays perhaps?

If a low level Ankylon decides a battle with its then low level group shield, the TEC Loyal would have won that battle without the Titan being there at all. He would have won that battle far better with a Ragnarov being there, too.

Actually I see more people playing Advent Loyalists then playing TEC Loyalists. Although most of them are quite new to the game.

Advent Rebels are better... alone by the Titan. Not to mention Wail makes up for a defense that puts fully upgraded twin starbases to shame. But I agree to something mentioned in another topic.... Advent in general need some major rethinking... it is just more visible in the Loyalists because they dont have tremendous powerful techs like Advent Rebels with Wail and Eradica.

About the skill level... you can win with any race... if your enemy has a lower skill than you or makes a serious error.

I dont think that any awesome TEC Loyalist player would do not awesome with TEC Rebels. That is the main issue... TEC Rebels have the Techs that are generally more useful... and they can dig in 99% as effective as TEC Loyalists... that is what makes them such a poor choice when playing competively. Need to defend yourself? Not much of a difference between TEC Rebels and Loyalists... Need to go offensive? Choose Rebels.

In the end it comes down to this:

Your Fleet + Ankylon VS the identical fleet with a Ragnarov.

I am certain that below Titan Level 6 this will be easily won by the Ragnarov. Above 6 its get closer and on Level 8 or above the Ankylon "MIGHT" win with both fleets totally lost. Which is somewhat dissapoining, because right now a lone Ankylon is not very dangerrous... a lone Ragnarov is.

More things to consider:

Rank up speed:

Many people will rush a Ragnarov... having it available earlier than suitable for the other races = valuable rank up time.

An hostile invasion of your empire has been sucessfully repelled... the invaders fleet is in full retreat.... guess who gets more XP destroying fleeing ships? The Ragnarow! Because the Ankylon even when under full Furious Defense needs ages to destroy ships.It needs even more time to move into broadside position.... another 5 seconds for the enemy to run like hell. Against the Ragnarov.... notice the huge range... notice the firepower and the excellent coverage of it.

In theory the Ragnarov has slower repair speed than the Ankylon. So what? 2 Hoshikos or a Dunow is all you need to compensate for that. So it can go hunting again quite soon, too.

The bottom line is: Few there, you can do with TEC Loyalists which you cannot do with TEC Rebels. However many things you can do with Rebels, that you cannot do with TEC Loyalists.

On a final note.... eternal defense will not win you any game. Novaliths will not help you against a human that is not totally stupid. A war of attrition favors the Rebels. Because as Loyalists you cant stop them from bombing your planets into dust if they mean it seriously. As you cannot counterattack with the necessary punching power they can and will just surround you and attack you so long until your defenses are overcome. It may take a while.. but the end is inevitable.

There are only two options to solve that.

1. Loyalist get a defense that makes it considerable more costly to attack them.

2. Loyalists get a way to strike back with enough power to overcome the - still impressive - defenses of a TEC Rebel.

Ideas from some Mods I saw used on the TEC Loyalists:

- more tactical slots in general

- Starbases come with Docking boons as a standard (no slot cost, repair and antimatter restore)

- E4X Mod: TEC Loyalists planets that are under your control for some time get more and more planetary missile launchers installed on the planet - so if you truely insist on attacking that planet you better expect half your fleet dying because of it. Not to mention it looks awesome when hundreds of missiles lash out into space... raining death and destruction on the invaders!

Ideas I have myself:

- General planetary shield for TEC Loyals: Similar like the earlier suggested general health upgrade, just better and more cool looking. At Tech Level 4 or 5 all TEC Loyalist planets get a shield ON the planet. Give it 4 minutes build time so that a new conquered world is not immediatly though as hell.

The planet shield is actually a awesome thing (although imho it would fit Advent more) but the easy to destroy building does ruin its point in 99 % of the cases.

More ideas please!

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I like a lot of the ideas in this thread for the Loyalists.

I'm not going to bother with titan abilities or other unit stats etc, but the ideas that come to mind for me are.

-Increased Tac slots, they are supposed to be the defensive faction give them the harder nut to crack, which could also apply to the starbases even more.(or make it so all their defensive structures cost only 1 Tac Point, except the superweapons and titan factories normal cost for them.)

-As others have mentioned give them a special defensive structure that they can only have that will make others think twice for attacking.

-Default planetary shielding like a few people have suggested. Nothing to major, just make it so it takes a little bit longer to crack a planet.

-ARESIV suggested planetary space weapons also something not too overpowered just a few missile silos, or maybe even some Beams like the Kol, or the TEC starbase that shoot up from the planet.

Not saying all of these should be added, just throw something in to make them even more unique from the Rebels. Theres very little that makes them different from the Rebels at the moment, don't get me wrong twin fortress is nice, but they just need something else to make them better than what they currently are.

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The good news is, patch 1.4 fixed the bug with Disruption matrix not affecting Titans.

The new max superweapon calculation method did also help the TEC Loyalists.

Still, imho there is still much needed until they are competivly.

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GoaFan77

Join Date 10/2008

+629

Quoting ARESIV,

reply 9

Still, imho there is still much needed until they are competivly.

I disagree. They are roughly competitively, I have seen people use them on ICO and I don't think all of them were noobs. They could use some minor buffing to their research, especially early since they are so backloaded on techs (that XP in friendly gravity wells maybe), and perhaps to the titan, but now that Novalith rushing is viable again they'll have a role.

Once the Advent and Vasari Rebels get knocked down a few more notches and the Advent Loyalists up a bit we'll have a decent balance I think.

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Seleuceia

Join Date 01/2008

+240

Quoting GoaFan77,

reply 10

Once the Advent and Vasari Rebels get knocked down a few more notches and the Advent Loyalists up a bit we'll have a decent balance I think.

Pretty much....issue isn't so much TL/AL as it is VR/VL...if Vasari get nerfed (SB mobilization and maw are the two killers right now) then the TL/AL situation won't be as bad...

If TL gets a buff, it should be to the ankylon (which is the worst titan of them all)...mainly, group shield needs a buff...I'd make it a fire and forget AoE with greater range than 4000....I'd also make it affect the titan itself...maybe even adjust the duration/cooldown time at lower levels (upper levels are okay if it became fire and forget AoE with greater range)...

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So I just had an interesting thought:

While it certainly has useful skills, the Ankylon really lacks any sort of wow-factor gamechanging capabilities.

So on to the point: What if disruption Matrix also disabled Strikecraft(both engines & weapons) in addition to it's current effects(perhaps with a slight duration reduction)? This would certainly give the Ankylon a completely unique gamechanging tool(no other titan has anyti-SC abilities)- and frankly would make sense as the Ankylon is supposed to protect it's fleets, and frankly bombers are one of the game's greatest threats to late game fleets.

Not to mention it gives the more defensive TEC faction something the TEC has always been wanting for: a means of keeping bombers off their caps long enough to be killed with flak burst & fighters,

Yes, Bombers are currently the premier "titan-counter," but frankly the Ankylon isn't like other titans. Failing to kill it fast enough doesn't guaratee a dead fleet and a fed Ankylon- as would be the case with other titans.... the Ankylong is a support titan, and is around first and foremost to protect it's allies.

It has at most 33% uptime(at max rank)- which over a long period translates to a 50% reduction in enemy strikecraft damage over time provided it casts Disruption Matrix immediately every cooldown.

Again, duration could very easily be adjusted if too strong- but it just struck me as a unique interesting way to give the defensive TEC faction a form of defense the TEC has always been wanting for(by contrast Advent/vasari have always had TK push/Disable Weapons).

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GoaFan77

Join Date 10/2008

+629

Quoting bilun,

reply 12

I like the idea of the Ankylon having something to disable strikecraft with, I just wish it didn't have to be disruption vortex. As the only titan disable ability in the game its already its best ability and quite unique, but all the other ones are of course defensive.

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I would also like for Group Shield to not be a targeted ability.... this seems totally pointless to me and is very aggravating in the middle of a heated fight, why not just have it affect every ship within the radius?

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Quoting Senza32,

reply 14

Well to be fair, if the Akylon is far away from the ships it wants to shield, the current implementation does allow it to shield it's allies from further away(since the shield is applied in a radius around the target)- so for example it can actually shield allies outside the range of the ability by targeting a closer ally that is at the edge of the ability's range.

That said I could see an argument for changing it for convenience's sake as the above described advantage is fairly small and circumstantial.

But then again, having 1 targeted ability really isn't so bad- some titans have 2-3 targeted abilities.

Well then I suppose I don't really have a huge feeling one way or the other.

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I suppose, I just don't think it makes a whole lot of sense . I usually just quickly right click to put it on autocast then turn it off when I'm in a hurry

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Quoting Senza32,

reply 16

I suppose, I just don't think it makes a whole lot of sense . I usually just quickly right click to put it on autocast then turn it off when I'm in a hurry

Aye, regardless don't take anything I said to heart much- I realized part way through my post I wasn't even sure what I was arguing- I was more just musing on your suggestion and recording my train of thought in post-form....It's been that kind of day.

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Seleuceia

Join Date 01/2008

+240

Quoting bilun,

reply 15

The range of the ability is 4000m...the AoE that is spawned from the target has a range of 4000m....

Making it a fire and forget AoE with range 8000m won't weaken the ability....

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Quoting Seleuceia,

reply 18

Quoting bilun, reply 15Well to be fair, if the Akylon is far away from the ships it wants to shield, the current implementation does allow it to shield it's allies from further away(since the shield is applied in a radius around the target)- so for example it can actually shield allies outside the range of the ability by targeting a closer ally that is at the edge of the ability's range.

The range of the ability is 4000m...the AoE that is spawned from the target has a range of 4000m....

Making it a fire and forget AoE with range 8000m won't weaken the ability....

Ah well there we go, I didn't realize the area around the target was quite so large compared to the kill use range.

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Actually, it would make it stronger by a range of 8000 2000. 4000 range to fire it, with a 4000 range centered at its max range, would mean only half of the AoE goes outside its initial range.

-Twi

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I have to agree, I think even Advent are better at defending systems with there tactical structures getting shields(and all the mitigation/additional regen that adds) and there starbase having Aoe CC and Meteorites and 2 strike craft as standard. TEC starbase always seems like an easy kill

IMO defending systems is all about Range so add 50/100% range bonus to Militia Weaponry, and Tech loyalist can create some serious Fortress systems by forcing fleets to engage defenses rather than camp on the edge of a system and bomb.

I would also Drop the cost of compartmentalization to 50% from 20% and add a 50% upgrade speed bonus (so 2 starbases = 1 cost wise)

But Tec Loyalist synergies really well with another aggressive player, supporting fleets / economy and dropping 2 starbases in there key systems. the loyalist titan really shines in this role, with 4 points in ability cooldown and 4 points in group shield you can maintain a 82% damage reduction on a friendly titan / fleet(3 second drop), and the 50-75% rof doesn't hurt, and force them do deal with this Brick.

it just sucks if your on your own

could change twin forts to.... quad forts... giggle or... 10!! muchahahaha

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A 'counterstrike' upgrade to the phase lane disruptors could add a debuff to fleeing ships, and/or a buff to owned/allied ships, for a good chase after retreating fleets.

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Basically what I am saying is instead of making it be a targeted ability that then spreads from the target, just make it apply to all ships within the range of the ability, but with no spreading from ship to ship, basically like the Ankylon temporarily increases its shield "bubble" size uniformly to cover friendly ships.

I was also thinking maybe a slight buff to group shield power would be nice, BUT, to compensate, let's say that the Ankylon's shields become "stressed" by being so stretched out, reducing the Ankylon's shield mitigation for the duration, which would encourage focus firing on it while group shield is up, since a high level Ankylon is notorious for being almost impossible to destroy. Thoughts?

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