Quoting ARESIV, reply 15Imho we have to think about generally nerfing phase missiles sooner or later. Advent are way to vulnerable to them, giving them only poor changes in late game.
Phase missiles where nerfed when rebellion came out
1. Max upgra
Quoting ARESIV, reply 15Imho we have to think about generally nerfing phase missiles sooner or later. Advent are way to vulnerable to them, giving them only poor changes in late game.
Phase missiles where nerfed when rebellion came out
Really? Well, if they were, clearly not enough. Vasari Rebels have one extra damage upgrade.... making the deadliest weapon in Sins even more deadly. Still only Tech 6 for them.
1. Max upgraded phase missiles did decreased damage or take additional techs to upgrade (depending on reb or loy)
It still a level 5 military upgrade (which is btw quite cheap) that makes any other weapon upgrade in the game look like nothing. Forget TEC Rebels upgrade, forget Plasma + Energy Aura, Phase Missiles own everything. I dont know a single Vasari player that resarches any other weapon upgrade before finishing PM tech... and rightfully so. It should also be noted that this single research tree makes the entire advent shield upgrade tree absolutly worthless.
2. Fighters ceased to use phase missiles resulting in teching it benefiting less one less type of unit
Indeed and rightfully so. That still leaves bombers that massacre about anything in no time. The usual Advent VS Vasari late game battle goes the following way: Advent fleet has a high level Titan, several high level Capital ships and of course a large frigate fleet coming with it. Vasari have the same. Now, what happens? Within 1 minute of the battle the Advent Titan dies to Phase Missiles..... sometimes with over 10000 shield points remaining... within 2 minutes ALL Advent capital ships are dead.... and within 2 minutes and 10 seconds all Advent support units are dead too. The rest of the Advent fleet can only withdraw, suffering further heavy losses.
The Vasari fleet might have taken some losses to, but only in the first battle those are going to be reasonably high. After the first battle, it is an uphill battle for Advent. Advent have not only to replace more ships with the worse economic to do that. (Economic wise the Vasari can built 150 ships for Advent 100 and TEC 200, estimated late game values) Also Vasari will have surviving capital ships that rank up even further while Advent NEVER ever again is fielding any capital ship above level 4... simple because they die in no time at the first enemy contact. And dont think that even a level 10 Titan is going to change that, it never did, no matter how powerful it was.
3. There are more things that give phase missile block (advent culture for example)
Leaving the Kol aside, that btw nobody builds for this purpose there is nothing but Advent culture upgrades to block phase missiles. And the culture block sadly has several major flaws:
- It is pathetic! Please see this topic: https://forums.sinsofasolarempire.com/429069
- It does only work in your own culture (This requires total cultural domination, something Advent, not even the Loyalist will have on any remotly frontline planet. Start a game with Advent Loyalists.... resarch the 20 % damage bonus in culture..... watch your ships when it is done. Then move your ships to a frontline planet.... you have be happy if you have 10 % of that power buff from 20 %.
- Advent increased Shield mitigation in culture is simple said worthless against an Vasari opponent. By the time the Vasari has even shot down your unupgraded shields, your ships died 3 minutes ago to hull damage from phase missiles.
- Vasari have highly useful damage bonus in culture..... that means 6 % additional phase missile damages.... so your ships die 6 % faster.... which isnt more than a few seconds difference as they die very quickly already.
- With luck, highly superior economic (with Advent, nearly impossible lol) you MIGHT be capable of holding the line against an Vasari. Any attack however, it pointless. Advent have nothing to deal with a digged in Vasari thanks to:
-- Holy OP Disuptor Nanintes - see https://forums.sinsofasolarempire.com/430445
-- Best Hangar defense in the game, the one that actually stops bombers
-- Orkulus..... https://forums.sinsofasolarempire.com/431811
-- and of course a nice phase tunnel which makes sure that no matter where you attack his entire fleet will be there to defend within 2 minutes, destroying you totally. (Not to mention that at this stage of the game he likely will have the highest sensor upgrade and as such knows for half an hour that your fleet is coming.)
For your information... in my third ever Vasari MP game I hold the line against an Advent player which had over 100 games more than me. He threw everything he had at me. He lost nearly his entire fleet including is Level 6 Titan in each attack.... I lost at most 2 capital ships, some frigates and a few phase missile turrets which I placed direct in harms way to make use ofn OP Disruptor Nanites. That should not happen. I saw how well he used his fleet. Under any other circumstances he would have crushed me like a bug. In this case I was slowly killing him.... on a large map there is nothing more deadly than Kostura with a VL Titan and - even the now balanced version - of Stripped to the core.
It should be noted that Disruptor Nanites do not stop once the ship has left the range or the gravity well. Thanks to gravity tolerance research, you can actually fly right behind him and overturn his fleeing fleet after 3 jumps..... Nothing like killing a non regenerating Titan that way.
Of course I was lucky to some extent.... not only was the map large but until he killed one of my teammates he was quite busy on the other front, leaving me time to tech up. Still, it is imho not balanced when a fully teched Vasari can deal with Advent like all those warships are little more than toys. https://forums.sinsofasolarempire.com/431121
4. Other weapon types in general have additional tech levels without decreasing the strength of preexisting techs.
aded phase missiles did decreased damage or take additional techs to upgrade (depending on reb or loy)
I am sorry, I dont understand what you mean. Could you please explain?
4. Other weapon types in general have additional tech levels without decreasing the strength of preexisting techs.
I am sorry, I dont understand what you mean. Could you please explain?
I hereby recommend the following possible nerfs to phase missiles:
IDEA 1: The brutal way:
--- NERF Phase missiles hard, and I mean so hard that you can hear the Vasari scream in agony all the way back to Kron.
Question to the developers: What was your intention with the phase missile tech? Was it meant to be the bane of any Advent fleet? Or was it what I think/hope meant more as a bonus? Right now most ships die with shields close to full power. Was that your intention? Or was your intention to have some hull damage as a bonus before the shields fail? Basically the ship is damaged with active shields, but in most cases the shields of the ship have to be brought down before it can be destroyed. For example:(values simplyfied)
Normal attack to a ship with 2000 shield points and 1000 hull points.
2000 damage done, shield are down, no hull damage.... yet.
Phase Missile attack to the same ship:
2000 Phase Missile damage done, shields are down but due to shield piercing the ship has already taken 200 hull damage.
The current implementations seems to be arround 1500 shield points remaining when the hull dies to shield piercing missiles.
Change the piercing values such that its a bonus, nothing more nothing less.
Advantages of Idea 1: That would nearly certain fix the problem and is easy to implement. Values can be easily changed in the future, should they prove to weak one day.
Disadvantage of Idea 1: Might have negative influence on Vasari TEC Balancing.... although I think Vasari are very deadly even without any phase missile tech.
IDEA 2: The medium hard way:
The most OP form of the phase missiles are the bombers. 30 Vasari Bomber wings are capable of doing damage superior to 80 TEC/Advent bomber wings.... for much lower cost. Now, I dont suggest giving phase weapons to fighters again... it is the same problem. So... either
a: Make bomber phase missiles have NO shield piercing effect at all
or
b: Make bombers have shield piercing phase missiles, BUT with CONSIDERABLE lower values than frigates and capital ships. Something like 4 stages:
Titan PM: Like now
Capital Ships PM: Slightly weaker
Orkulus PM: Like capital
Frigates PM: Slightly weaker than capital
Bomber PM: HARD NERF
Advantages of Idea 2: Vasari still have their high tech toy, but now at least their bombers are balanced.
Disadvantages of Idea 2: Lot of work to implement, cap ships + Titan + Orky might still kill anything with Advent markings way to quickly. Lots of work to balance all those values.
IDEA 3: Increase Phase Missile protection of Advent
1. Slight nerf to phase missiles to perfect TEC/Vasari Balancing
2. Give Advent a far higher phase missile block change. Spread it across the resarch tree to make it timely and costly.... punishing an Advent for not resarching them in time. Maximum block values should be:
Maximum phase missile block values:
Advent Loyalists without culture: 75 %
Advent Loyalists with culture: 95 %
Advent Rebels without culture: 65 %
Advent Rebels with culture: 85 %
(in the unlikely case those values are too high, they can be adjusted later. Keep in mind that you have to research a lot of stuff to have such high values. )
Research tree locations: Advent General:
General phase missile block - works always
No research = no phase missile block
Basic Shield Projection Level 1: no phase missile block
Basic Shield Projection Level 2: 5 % block
PsiTech Shield Emitters Level 1: 10 % block
PsiTech Shield Emitters Level 2: 15 % block
Potent Shield Generation Level 1: 25 % block
Potent Shield Generation Level 2: 35 % block
Raised Shield Harmonics Level 1: 50 % block
Raised Shield Harmonics Level 2: 65 % block - Possible Maximum for Advent Rebels without culture
This phase missile block works in culture only:
Unity Indoctrination = No phase missile block
Zealous Worship Level 1: 67.5 % (65 % general block + 2.5 % in culture block)
Zealous Worship Level 2: 70 %
Unwavering Belief Level 1: 55 % block72.5 % block55 % block 55 % block
Unwavering Belief Level 2: 75 % block
Total Assimilation Level 1: 77.5 % block
Total Assimilation Level 2: 80 % block
Wall of Faith(culture resistance tech): Level 1: 82.5 % block
Wall of Faith(culture resistance tech): Level 2: 85 % block = Possible maximum for Advent Rebels in culture
Deliverance engine: No block for technology but what about giving the Deliverance engine a buff that gives 100 % phase missile block for 5 minutes in the gravity well that was hit? Would no doubt sell any Advent player I know to build the thing for a change.
Advent Loyalists Techs that further increase general Phase missile block:
Ancient Retribution: 90 % block (5 % block increase)
Advent Loyalists Techs that further increase Phase missile block in culturein culture:
Global Unity Level 1: 92.5 % block (2.5 block increase)(2.5 % block increase) (2.5 % block increase)
Global Unity Level 2: 95 % block (2.5 block increase)
(2.5 % block increase)
Advantages of Idea 3:
Better gameplay.... right now it is 100 % certain that the Vasari has all phase missile upgrades. That makes having the anti tech an absolute necessity. Now if phase missiles werent so impressive anymore against fully researched block, the Vasari might consider other ways of teching up. Which in turn will make the Advent become overconfident until the Vasari can severerly punish that overconfidence again. It would add depth... you have to anticipate what your enemies is doing a bit more. Makes bomber spam a bit less viable, giving the other factions more breathing room to build something different instead of hoping on a miracle that those 60 fighter wings will stop those 40 phase missile bomber wings before they destroy everything.
Makes the culture resarch more viable.... the current phase missile block implemantation is not worth the money.
Makes "Raised Shield Harmonics" useful against Vasari..... instead of being mildy annoying to TEC or Advent only.
Makes the Motherships "Restore Shields" Ability actually useful against the Vasari. Right now, it is a total waste of XP points on it if you face an Vasari opponent.
Disadvantages of Idea 3: Lots of work to implement, Vasari bomber wing still very deadly against TEC. Adjusting of the values probably means that every mentioned research file has to be modified.
That values are of course up for further discussion... but please keep in mind that Advent
-- have less ships than Vasari
-- donts stand a remote change in late game when all your synergies are killed within 30 seconds
-- need to be capable of attacking a digged in Vasari with acceptable losses... high... but acceptable
If phase missiles are nerfed, and they surely need it, balancing would be vastly improved imho. Right now if the Vasari manages to survive to very late game Advent are simple screwed.
