Pacts are underestimated I think...

from Sins Forums

I will explain why.

 

In my recent game I am Vasari Loyalist, having an Advent Rebel ally, and a Tec Loyalist and a Vasari Loyalist opponent, all AI. I have a good economy, have some nice planets on random medium large (my favourite map, it gives some breathing space). So, the problem is, the unfair AI's both have all the fancy stuff from TEC and Vasari pacts, and it is shockingly strong.. without a full fleet they are very dangerous.. With a Vorastra and 2-3 level5+ capitalships the Vasari could easily!! destroy my almost fully upgraded orkulus, no matter I had serevuns, they were shot down very soon by the Vorastra.. And I lost 3-4 capital ships defending a choke point, and they were level4-5 kortuls.. I managed my empire for like a minute and they were so badly damaged I could do nothing to save them.. I almost lost my Vorastra too.. But finally, after getting a real advantage in numbers.. I had a fleet 6 times larger than he had.. I managed tpo destroy his level4 Vorastra, mine was level5, but his ship was clearly superior.. Obviously unfair AI has some advantage from his research benefits, but before this wasn't really a problem for me.. Bombers solved every problem :D

 

As Vasari Loyalist I never had problems (if I survived early game and managed to get 1-2 orkuli up on chokepoints), I always had the strongest fleets, impenetrable defenses, a strong titan, but now all these are questioned by the opponent having the effects of pacts.. I only have Vasari pacts (so my pastc), my ally, I don't really now what she is doing.. stupid AI :D

 

TEC armor pact and Vasari firerate pact combo is lethal.. I think they have the supply pact that is a huge asset if you have huge fleets.. Their capital ships are superior, their everything is superior due to their pacts..

 

So people (who play online), aren't these benefits worth their prize? I guess Advent pacts are much weaker, this is what is causing problems in my game, nowhere as good as Vasari or TEC pacts.. TEC armor pact basically makes smaller ships 50% stronger, corvettes too, while making harder objects live longer. Vasari has some good stuff for firepower, making their titan very dangerous, and his capital ships also.. and decreases the cost of metal and crystal (after some time it can spare you a nice amount of credits), and the best pact in the game, TEC supply pact basically gives you a free fleet supply upgrade, late game it can be several times 10 credits per sec, and some metal and crystal.

 

I know, the slow start (expensive envoys, the time they reach destination, time till relationship bonus goes up) and the mutual relationships that are causing problems.. both people need to send envoys, wait till relationship level rises, research pacts, research envoy abilities for some nice bonuses to give your ally and to accelerate relationship point increase. So it is a very long investment, maybe something could be done to decrease the time needed for some things.

 

Conclusion: I think there are huge possibilities in diplomacy, it would really be a nice thing to have this as a possibility for a strong empire, and not just trade everywhere, fleet consisting of only bombers and a titan... so monotonic, though specializations may have changed it, haven't played much games online with the DLC yet..

 

I think it would worth another DLC or a major patch, most players would be happy to have another possible winning strategy, and not having an entire expansion that's features are almost useless now.. (Diplomacy) I feel there are great possibilities in this field.

 

Sorry if this topic was mentioned before, I couldn't really find a recent one on google, I just wanted to tell you my thoughts on this :)

13,996 views 6 replies
Reply #1 from Sins Forums Top

It is just a psychological thing, really. There is nothing wrong with diplomacy as it is, it could be indeed slightly easier to access, but perhaps that would make it OP then... the issue anyway is IMHO people related here. 

I believe the PvP players tend to approach the game in a most pragmatic manner, win as fast as you can. Therefore they naturally focus on military and economy, first and foremost.. you certainly need those. The culture and even moreso diplomacy are luxury then, they can give you some nice bonuses, but that will take time, which they cant and perhaps dont want to afford. After all, if you invest into group of Envoys now, it can help you to win later. But if you are attacked in the meantime, you can miss the money you spent on envoys and actually lose a battle cause of that, and in turn entire game. Why take such risks if you are safer to just build another ship, tradeport or research stronger lasers.

So as i alluded in the other thread, just moments before, i think most people tend to play it safe. It is the same mindset as the players of StarCraft have, now can you imagine diplomacy in StarCraft? :D  I certainly cant. I like it as an option in Sins, but IMHO its option only for compstomps/Hamachi games with friends, not competitive multiplayer, and nothing is going to change about that, no matter what. It is not the game, which would have to change, it is about people.

 

Reply #2 from Sins Forums Top

Quoting Timmaigh, reply 1
I like it as an option in Sins, but IMHO its option only for compstomps/Hamachi games with friends, not competitive multiplayer, and nothing is going to change about that, no matter what. It is not the game, which would have to change, it is about people.
End of Timmaigh's quote

 

well, you make risks when you build trade.. If you are attacked while your trade ports were only built, you lost the front.. But they can also give a huge advantage if they can pay their cost back.

 

Many pacts are the same, for 3-4 ships you can have huge advantages, and you don't have to immediately research all the stuff, you may do it when you feel it is time, maybe the moment you reach the prerequisite relationship level..

 

I am just disappointed online this part of the game is hardly ever touched.. all other research trees are in constant use, but this is never.. Even when playing with noobs they don't build envoys and dont even think about diplomac and pacts..

 

I think it could be changed in a reasonable way, but the problem is, they don't really want to do it. (Developers). it wasnt really touched in a meaningful way for a long time, only ruined with the rebel-loyalist factions and the mutual relationship numbers that I fail to understand what was the reason for that.. Basically as TEC Rebel I cannot play a ffa with random factions because my faction hates everyone, no matter how they like me, I hate everyone with a -10 penalty or so.. and only allying with the other TEC Rebel is not much fun, and not many choices can be made..

DeskScapes - Bring your desktop background to life.
Reply #3 from Sins Forums Top

Pacts were used in multiplayer back when only the offering player needed to send envoy cruisers. This meant that econ players, who could afford the extra distraction of the diplomacy "minigame", could do all the work and give some powerful bonuses to any player on his team he choose, and player engaged on the front lines, who are indeed likely to be fighting an all out battle, just needed to accept.

 

Now I'm not saying that I don't like the change that both player relationships matter, it certainly makes more sense. However, if the goal is to get pacts used in multiplayer then this is the thing that needs to change. Maybe when envoy cruiser's fleet supply get halved it may change, but I don't think it deals with the main problem.

Reply #4 from Sins Forums Top

Quoting GoaFan77, reply 3
Pacts were used in multiplayer back when only the offering player needed to send envoy cruisers.
End of GoaFan77's quote

 

well it was before I got to play online and I have never seen this in action :(

 

Quoting GoaFan77, reply 3
Maybe when envoy cruiser's fleet supply get halved it may change, but I don't think it deals with the main problem.
End of GoaFan77's quote

 

true, I think their cost should also be decreased, and maybe the pact researches could be 1 level earlier on the diplomacy tech tree.

Reply #6 from Sins Forums Top

Quoting ZombiesRus5, reply 5
Been discussed...
End of ZombiesRus5's quote

 

yes, I remembered there was something, but I was too tired to search for it..