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Are There Different Paths to the Same God?

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Are There Different Paths to the Same God?

from JoeUser Forums
While reading Christmas-Why do we celebrate it like we do on KarmaGirl's blog, I noticed that the comment section turned into a partial discussion on pathways to God. Some bloggers believed only through "Jesus" could someone reach salvation or God. Others thought multiple pathways lead to the same end result of God .

I am currently reading a book titled, The History of God by Karen Armstrong. Her writing and study is challenging, but highly pertinent and fascinating. This discussion reminded me of an insightful paragraph in Armstrong's book. As a precursor to a hopefully interesting and lively discussion, I will post the excerpt here.



"The human idea of God has a history, since it has always meant something slightly different to each group of people who have used it at various points of time. The idea of God formed in one generation by one set of human beings could be meaningless in another. Indeed, the statement 'I believe in God' has no objective meaning, as such, but like any other statement only means something in context, when proclaimed by a particular community. Consequently there is no one unchanging idea contained in the word 'God'; instead, the word contains a whole spectrum of meanings, some of which are contradictory or even mutually exclusive. Had the notion of God not had this flexibility, it would not have survived to become one of the great human ideas.

When one conception of God has ceased to have meaning or relevance, it has been quietly discarded and replaced by a new theology. A fundamentalist would deny this, since fundamentalism is antihistorical: it believes that Abraham, Moses and the later prophets all experienced their God in exactly the same way as people do today. Yet if we look at our three religions [Judaism, Christianity, and Islam], it becomes clear that there is no objective view of 'God': each generation has to create the image of God that works for it.

The same is true of atheism. The statement 'I do not believe in God' has meant something slightly different at each period of history. The people who have been dubbed 'atheists' over the years have always denied a particular conception of the divine. Is the 'God' who is rejected by atheists today, the God of the patriarchs, the God of the prophets, the God of the philosophers, the God of the mystics or the God of the eighteenth-centurey deists? All these deities have been venerated as the God of the Bible and the Koran by Jews, Christians and Muslims at various points of their history. We shall see that they are very different from one another.

Atheism has often been a transitional state: thus Jews, Christians and Muslims were all called 'atheists' by their pagan contemporaries because they had adopted a revolutionary notion of divinity and transcendence. Is modern atheism a similar denial of a 'God' which is no longer adequate to the problems of our time?"

*note the paragraph breaks are my own, added for ease of reading on this blog. In the book, this is one paragraph.
philosophy
27,807 views 70 replies
Reply #51 from JoeUser Forums Top

NO!


There is but one God...the all knowing, all seing Kuppajhoe! You must all bow before him or be smote (smited? smit?) in his all consuming fiery wrath! That, or buy a weekly double redeye at Starbucks for penance!

Reply #52 from JoeUser Forums Top

Guy - If I seem that narrow minded to you, that I would 'denigrate that which does not fit into my philosophy', then one of two things has happened. Either I have not done a good job of representing my belief systems, or I'm not the one who's narrow minded. I've had a couple minor disagreements with you in the past, and so far I haven't gotten the impression that you're open to suggestion. You strike me as the kind of person that is in your 40s or 50s, and very much 'set in your ways' in how you think and act... I always thought of knowledge as something that's more fluid than that.

Learning is a life long vocation.  I know a lot more now than I did when I graduated from College.  I think our disagreement is when you take statements out of context and then argue against them, often just re-iterating what was said.  That comes across as arrogant and that only your opinion is valid, due to your education.  If that is not the case, then I offer my apology.  I was only commenting on what you wrote, not on what you think, since the latter only you know.

I may be old, but that does not mean I am close minded.  It does mean experience has taught me a lot, and that is more valuable then book learning in many cases

Galactic Civilizations III
Reply #53 from JoeUser Forums Top
There is but one God...the all knowing, all seing Kuppajhoe! You must all bow before him or be smote (smited? smit?) in his all consuming fiery wrath! That, or buy a weekly double redeye at Starbucks for penance!


I worship the Kuppajhoe all day. In fact, I am singing his praises now between gulps.
Reply #54 from JoeUser Forums Top
It does mean experience has taught me a lot, and that is more valuable then book learning in many cases


Wisdom is much more valuable than any education.

What if Christians led by example? What if they were out in the community making a difference, thus causing people to want to find out what 'the secret' is?


"A good example is the best sermon." ~Ben Franklin
Reply #55 from JoeUser Forums Top

When Christianity first appeared on the scene, it existed in a polytheistic culture. The 'Way' had to compete against all sorts of occult religions, Greek philosophies, and your bread and butter polytheists. I remember a temple of Aphrodite(?) getting upset at Paul for cutting into their profits. Apparently, religion was big business back then and even as it is now. However, all through European history and the early parts of American history, the Christian Church has created and maintained a theological monopoly. There was only one God and one Church. But now the theological landscape has changed back towards polytheism and Christianity finds itself facing a swarm of Eastern religions, occult practices, and various philosophies that are vying for the souls of Americans. It's Rome all over again. But is this necessarily a bad thing? I think the arrogance of Christianity that imajinit is referring to, is a relic from the days of the Church's former dominance. It is the arrogance of the righteous, the elite, and most importantly, the powerful. It is the power to impose Spanish Inquisitions. The power to order and encourage the Crusades. The power to declare someone a heretic, excommunicated forever, a soul damned to hell. It is the power to take religion and humbly "shove it down people's throats" as you so eloquently put it. But it is not their intentions I disagree with. Most Christians I've met are actually nice, decent people. Their hearts are in the right place, but they do not see that the times have changed and they must change as well if they wish to communicate with the world around them. Perhaps they don't want to. Perhaps that is why I am seeing so many Christian pop bands, and Christian private schools, and Christian movies popping up. Christians in America are forming their own subculture, one that is sheltering itself from the decadent, immoral influences of MTV and the dreaded F-word. Yet if I am polytheistic in my outlook and your religion dictactes that you at least make a passing gesture of trying to show me "the joys of knowing Jesus", how will you convince me to convert? If we were living in medieval Europe, we could both begin with the assumption that there was a god, but these days we cannot even begin with that.
I am Japanese, Okinawan actually, and my people worshipped the spirits of our ancestors. I respect my people's history, but I do not want to worship a god of the dead. I wish to serve a living god, one who would fight alongside me and deliver me from my enemies. I must say, the person of Jesus intrigues me. I have served many fools in my time, but he is a captain I could respect, the kind who would bend over backwards for his men. Those leaders are rare in my experience, and if you're ever fortunate enough to find a boss like that, you stick with him even if he gets the crazy notion to go and save the world.
But Evangelical Christians have no notion of tribes or a people, these are some of the most splintered and divided people I've ever met. Baptists hate the Church of Christ. Church of Christ want nothing to do with the Assemblies of God. And of course, everybody hates the Catholics. Perhaps hate is too strong a word. They've learned to 'tolerate' each other. Yet this is supposed to be the body of Christ! Jesus must be in a lot of pain because his right leg just tore itself off from the rest of the body. Yep, there goes another church split over some doctrinal issue like clapping hands in church. Hmm. Poor guy. They wish to persuade me with arguments and creeds, mere words, which betray their salesmanship and marketing skills. These are American Churches after all, and Americans are reknown for their dexterity with words. You'd think salvation would be an easier sell.
What are they offering me? What is this salvation they speak of? Sadly, when I look at most Christians I see broken people. Their marriages are in trouble, some struggle with depression, eating disorders, and alcohol; they are arrogant, afraid, and narrowminded just like me. Yet if what Jesus taught was true, then even the most horrifying, humiliating, and hurtful experience of our lives can be turned into salvation for another person. I know I've got a few of sekletons locked away in my closet somewhere. But even monsters can be redeemed. If grace is true.
I seek a tribe of wounded healers who would have the courage to bring their sin and shame forward so that it could be used to heal and encourage others, instead I find a tribe on an ideological warpath, seeking to dominate the theological landscape and reclaim their monotheistic throne. Christianity is everywhere these days, and by god they are right! Pounding their message of one faith in one god, and we heathens must be converted. Every time I engage in a theological conversation with fundamental Christians, I get the sinking feeling that I am being hunted and cornered until I am just another notch in a headhunter's belt. They do not want to hear about my pain, or listen to my story, nor can they teach me the craft of forming my sorrows into a song that will mend the broken hearts of others. They cannot show me how to carry my cross, nor the Alchemist's secret of turning a hardened heart of lead into a heart of gold. They are barely getting by themselves.
Christians need to wake up. The good old days were never that good. They will never go back to being the reigning religious superpower like when they had the patronage of Rome, or the full backing of the Medieval fuedal system, or tacit support of the American colonial system. They can finally return to the Early Church model they so desperately want. Because the Church of the New Testament was a religion among religions. Rome was a polytheistic enviroment then, just as it is in America now. Christians are once again a tribe among tribes. But they hold an ace card in that their god Jesus is actually a very cool deity, and the tribe he was raising would've been the thirteenth tribe of Israel, who's name meant, "He who struggles with God". Imagine a tribe of seekers, wounded strugglers trying to survive in a spiritual warzone being lead by the only man to face death and live to tell the tale. Why everyone with broken hearts and psychological wounds would flock to such a tribe! It would've been a tribe of medics, not Crusaders. I could at least respect such a religion. And what if it were true? What if such a god did exist? One who spilled the same blood in the same mud with the rest of us grunts? Such a god would be worthy of my respect and praise. But I cannot say he is the god of Christians. Sadly, I see more "Moral Majority" and right-wing conservatism in Christians than Jesus. To any Christians out there reading this, do not take this as an attack, but instead take it as a challenge. In a polytheistic world filled every kind of god imaginable, I am rooting for your god, the wounded healer. Call me sentimental, but I'd like that such a god exists. Such a god would be worthy of my respect.
Reply #56 from JoeUser Forums Top
Sadly, when I look at most Christians I see broken people. Their marriages are in trouble, some struggle with depression, eating disorders, and alcohol; they are arrogant, afraid, and narrowminded just like me.


What you see are mortal human beings. Being a Christian does not mean you will not commit a sin or feel pain or struggle. It does not mean you will not cry, hurt, or become sick. We are fallable. That is what makes Jesus so amazing to Christians. He was both God and man in the flesh. He was tempted and prevailed. He shed his perfect blood to wash away the sins we have committed and will commit. He comforts, forgives, and heals.

They do not want to hear about my pain, or listen to my story, nor can they teach me the craft of forming my sorrows into a song that will mend the broken hearts of others. They cannot show me how to carry my cross, nor the Alchemist's secret of turning a hardened heart of lead into a heart of gold. They are barely getting by themselves.


I am so sorry that you have not met Christians who wanted to reach out, listen, and comfort you.

Sadly, I see more "Moral Majority" and right-wing conservatism in Christians than Jesus.


Jesus is not mutually exclusive from "moral majority" or conservatism. Moral majority and conservatism are political offspring of Christianity and thus Jesus. The political aspects exist more for protection of the belief in Jesus.
Reply #57 from JoeUser Forums Top
Imajinit -- dude, I respect your response; it is very gentlemanly. (You're right -- we hear a whole lot about historical and some about theological, citical only by few, and even rarer, I believe do we get the exegetical. I get a lot of that from studying with Hank Hanegraaf. You probably have heard of him.)

I once had a Japanese friend ask me, "why do missionaries always have to tell you about what they believe?" in a very exasperated tone. I told him it was because it is a command by Jesus to do this. He said, "Oh, so it's HIS fault!" Quite candid -- not ordinary for a Japanese student -- but it really helped me to understand many people's viewpoint. (Not trolling... I swear I'll swing it back around!)

It's a two-parter. Not ONLY am I comanded to tell people the gospel message (the part you've noticed, as many have!) but I'm commanded to live as he has instructed. "If you love me, obey me." That's going back to 1 Cor. 13, a deeper explanation for what it means to love your neighbor as yourself (indeed, as Christ loved you and gave himself for you) and God above all else. That's reality daily and I have to live it. What good is one without the other????? it's useless, thin, void, shallow... the adjectives go on.

Bottom line: I believe Christ when he said "I am the way," and when he said, "No one gets to the Father except through me." For me to pick and chose what I beleive on basis of convenience is hypocrisy and vulgar; I think you can respect that. In turn, I take very literally that WE are the body of Christ. What happens if His feet don't go, if His arms don't reach, if His body doesn't reach out to others? Yeah, it's diseased right now because Christians are the best at glorifying him on one hand and then NEVER putting themselves in a predicament where they actually have to be caught trusting in Him. They never actually give more than they can bear because they feel Him telling them to and because they trust Him. They pray for His daily intervention and blessings and believe He freely gives it and will tell everyone they meet including you--- but they dont' try it out themselves.

I'm not perfect and I don't live a perfect life. I screw up all the time. But I don't give up. Others are depending on me because I am part of His body. I love others; I don't judge others motives; I trust God; give more than I can quite often; I tell others about Him; and I live in such a way that people ask me "why are you so happy all the time??"

Which religion would people want to join? The happy buddhist who still doesn't know what to do with the shame and guilt one can still feel after years of wrong doing or the happy Christian who can give an answer for why that shame and guilt is no longer applicable? And if I were to take your question and toy with it: Which one would they want: a religion that waffles on what the truth really is and can't really offer any hope or a religion that can bear witness to the truth in their lives, played out on a daily, supernatural basis? The supernatural intervention of God is the key and I agree with you, as long as Christians aren't willing to let God intervene in their lives supernaturally, in instances when there is just NO WAY it could be explained by any human action, people are going to say there is nothing special to Christianity.

Oh, and I'm not your stepmom. I've only got one child and she's five! I didn't get the impression you were trying to do evil things with psychology as your toy -- I just thought you were a little snappy and quick to judge. It's cool. We all do it. Part of the machine.... For another blog on another day -- you'll have to give your thoughts on cognitive science. I'm fascinated by the subject -- linguistics (Noah Choam, Steven Pinker, et al._ and metacognition. Everytime I think about metacognition, I wonder if I've suddenly stepped into a third dimesion on the topic, maybe a metacognition to the 3rd power! (Thinking about me thinking about how I think.)
Reply #58 from JoeUser Forums Top
iamheather - I am so sorry that you have not met Christians who wanted to reach out, listen, and comfort you.

This is not true. I have met you and can sense you have a kind heart. I have met others in the Church like you. But this war is between me and God. Deep down, I've always known Jesus was my god. I cannot say He is everyone's God, but I swore an oath to him. My word bound my soul to him. But I was the one who rebelled and broke ranks. I am like Judas in that I followed Jesus for three years yet betrayed him at the end with a kiss. He was not the messiah I imagined him to be. I've been trained in all your ways and have read the same books you have. I know how to speak "Christianese". But in my hour of need, he did not come. That disappointment lead to a deep bitterness fiercer than any sinner's unbelief. Unbelievers don't care if God exists or not, I care to the point of hatred. I chose to make war against god out of vengance. I live to kill him over and over again and can only assume that he lives to do the same. We are enemies now. I know I can't win, but I would rather die fighting than serve a liar. If prophecies are to come true, somebody has to be Judas right? Perhaps it is my role to hate God with all my heart, all my strength, and all my soul.
Ah such angst! Such pain! Reminds me of high school all over again. Who am I to complain? Others have got it a lot worse than me. It's not that I don't believe in Jesus. It's just that I don't trust him. I just go about my life, staying out of trouble, working hard so that when he decides to get angry and decimate my life yet again, I'll be ready for him. He's done it before. He'll do it again. But that stupid oath haunts me, binds me to him and his religion even when I don't want to be. I volunteer at a local church and help with their soundboard and I'm not even sure why. They're a small Methodist church and need all the help they can get, and they're all decent people. It's good to feel needed. And the songs they sing sound nice. It's paradoxical that I hate God so much, yet help his followers. Don't ask me, my brain is fried and I'm not making any sense anymore. My oath lives through me even when my faith has died.
Reply #59 from JoeUser Forums Top

But in my hour of need, he did not come

How do you know? Maybe He came, but not like you expected or wanted.

Did you allow Him to come? Were you truly open to Him?

I think you are more at war with your own self than with God. He is still there, waiting for you, His child. Faith is a gift, but you must be open to receive the gift.

Reply #60 from JoeUser Forums Top
iamheather - I think you are more at war with your own self than with God. He is still there, waiting for you, His child. Faith is a gift, but you must be open to receive the gift.

Perhaps you are right. Perhaps God is all around us, weeping with us, laughing alongside us. The ghost of Jesus haunts this world even when we have forgotten him. I once heard an old story about a fourth magi. He saw the star, reasoned its meaning and set off to find the newborn king but arrived too late. Mary and Joseph fled to Egypt and Herod ordered the slaughter of all newborn males under the age of two. In the midst of this slaughter of innocence that his tale begins. It is the story of my life, ever chasing rumors of god's birth, yet only finding pain and death when I finally 'arrive'. I'm always one step behind.
Did I allow Him to come? Was I truly open to Him? No. I was not. From the very first moment I realized what Jesus had done, I felt this deep resentment. Who was this man to come and die like this? Who asked him to do this to me? It's horrifying to realize that someone loves you and you don't know how to love them in return. It's like recieving a gift and having no one to give it to. Don't take away my rage. The existence of love would render me a sad, little man who became angry because he was too afraid to open up and love. It's easier to disbelieve. It's easier to be cold and angry.
I think you are right when you say that I am war with my own self. The battle is being fought over my heart. On the one hand I can sense this terrifying hatred that would have me burn this entire world out of sheer spite. It whispers for vengance for the hurt of the past. Yet on the other hand, is the image of a single man hanging there watching me. Curse his eyes! It's one thing to have faith in God. It's another thing entirely when God has faith in you. He looks at me and believes I can be better than this. He believes I can be stronger and wiser. He believes I am capable of great sacrifice and even great love. He sees the wings of an angel where I see none. And why? Because we were brothers? Both sons of the same father? Because the same blood flows through both of our veins? Even as I kill him, as Cain killed Abel, he forgives me with his dying breath. What does he see in me? His brother? Is this love? Can he see through the curse, to the child I used to be? Can he see through this monstrous mask I've created to hide myself from others, to the child I still am? Can he see through the werewolf within, to the child I will always be? If he could, the spell would be broken and I would become a normal boy once again.
I'm sorry that they did away with confession, because this sounds awfully like one. Even though you didn't ask to, thanks for taking mine. You say that faith is a gift and we must be open to recieve it. But perhaps we are the gift that must be opened in order to recieve it. These words have been boiling and festering within me for seven years. I don't know why I opened up to you (and everyone with access to this website), but once I was opened, only then was I able to receive back my own words. Reading it over a second time now, it all becomes clear and there is meaning where before there was only confusion and anger. So thanks for listening and allowing me this opportunity to voice my blog/confession.
Reply #61 from JoeUser Forums Top

Echo_December

Who was this man to come and die like this? Who asked him to do this to me? It's horrifying to realize that someone loves you and you don't know how to love them in return. It's like recieving a gift and having no one to give it to

This man is your Creator. Your Father in the flesh full of unconditional love for his children. Do you have any children? If so, would you need them to ask you for help? Would you wait to intervene until they were suffering? No, you would do anything for them. Must a parent receive love to love? Absolutely not.

 

It's another thing entirely when God has faith in you. He looks at me and believes I can be better than this. He believes I can be stronger and wiser. He believes I am capable of great sacrifice and even great love. He sees the wings of an angel where I see none. And why? Because we were brothers? Both sons of the same father? Because the same blood flows through both of our veins? Even as I kill him, as Cain killed Abel, he forgives me with his dying breath. What does he see in me? His brother? Is this love? Can he see through the curse, to the child I used to be? Can he see through this monstrous mask I've created to hide myself from others, to the child I still am? Can he see through the werewolf within, to the child I will always be? If he could, the spell would be broken and I would become a normal boy once again.

God doesn't believe....he knows. He is your Author, your Creator, your Parent. We cause him pain with every sin we commit because he knows we are only hurting ourselves. He knows all that encompasses who we are. He knows the number of hairs on your head. There is no myth to dispell. He sees all that you are, and loves you anyway.

I'm sorry that they did away with confession

So thanks for listening and allowing me this opportunity to voice my blog/confession

Not all churches in Christianity have done away with confession. Even those that do not have formal confessions, still encourage fellowship with other believers and fervent prayer of confession and repentance.

I am honored that you have shared your feelings with me and others. Thank you for letting us carry some of your burden. Thank you for listening to us with an open heart. Thank you for your honesty and self reflection.

Reply #62 from JoeUser Forums Top

Obviously, if you have read my thread, then you know that I believe that there are many paths to God.

People who have never read a bible or learned to read or write have a sense of a "divine" spirit.  Christians think that the only way to God is through Jesus, but how can that be?  How could an all knowing God devise a plan that would make it impossible for people who live in an area that has never seen a bible, or for mentally handicapped people who can not understand, to make it to heaven?

After reading about many religions, it seems quite clear to me that it all points to the same belief- only the names are changed.  All organized religions, even those who have multiple divinities, have one God that is more powerful than the others.  Heck, even Earth religions have a powerful God- the Sun (they name the sun different things) and, for all we know, the sun *is* God and that is why it is so powerful.  But, we don't know, and there is no way to prove any of it.

I also can't believe that "God" could possibly want us to fight with each other over who is "right" in religion.  God would have made many paths for different people to be able to make it to heaven.  And, why not?  Why should there be only one way?  Why would that make sense at all?  And, why would a powerful God need to have one name?

I could be convinced that there is a "God".  Heaven is a different story.  In the end, I end up describing myself as a Buddhist with a Transcendental twist.  I believe in the life teachings of Buddhism (btw, "philosophy" is the word that is typically used when describing Buddhism) but I also have an easier time believing in an oversoul than in "heaven".  If you are not familiar with the "oversoul" theory, it's basically that when you die your energy returns to the oversoul to be distributed among living things.  Energy can neither be created nor destroyed, so it makes a bit of sense to me.  However, i am far from reaching the end of my path to enlightenment, so that can change.

The great thing about Buddhism is that you can follow it and still believe in whatever organized religion you crave.  It has a bunch of great teachings on truths in life, and how to connect with your inner spirit. 

Reply #63 from JoeUser Forums Top
Echo, Hi. It's interesting reading your comments. I certainly see the battle raging. Its very human and on another side, divine. As humans we tend to be extra critical of ourselves. I've often said to those who doubt Christianity, that the miss out on the its greatest blessing, forgiveness. I don't know what happened to you, when you feel God disappointed you or didn't answer. It must have been very sad. I love the depth you've contemplated your postion and the degree you've examined your own heart. I don't pretend to have all the answers to yours aor anyone else's problems, I can only share my thoughts. Yours thoughts are not different that many who have been through a climatic battle and feel they lost the war, instead of the battle. But, I still see the Lord working in you. I think that is your battle. I sense that you sense He still extends His grace to you, but you keep witholding you move toward Him.

Unanswered prayer has always bothered me. I'm never sure if its just answered prayer or an answer that I didn't like even when my parents gave it to me, "No'". I see I have no need to quote scripture to you, you likely know them better than I . But, I would like to share this one thought. I have found there are ways in which one can be drawn to the Lord. The closer you get to him, the more difficult a trial can be on the soul of the person. The great mystics of our and previous days in both the Jewish and Christian religions, and in other faiths religions all agree on this one issue. That is it is through the dark night of the soul, that God makes His closest friends. Many of the prophets of old and the new testament have experienced these same trials. How they deal with them, determines our ultimate relationship with God. In all the cases God waits patiently and examines the heart with His hands full of mercy for those enduring the trial to receive. In the contemplation of the cross, one find the ultimate unanswered prayer even, from God's own Son, "If it be thy will take this cup from me" thrice. Then came the dark night of the soul for our Lord, the suffering at the hands of men, the rejection as a human from the Father and His own death and shame before the people He came to save. Surely, the Lord wrestled his whole life knowing His hour would come and the answer He would receive to His thrice most fervent petition. And at last when the Hour did come, still He hoped for what did not come and committed himself to the Lord.

My point is this, when God so sheds more of His grace upon one that He desires to bring him closer, it is through difficult times that he instructs the soul. King David of old, spoke of his soul panting after the Lord. Often He cried out , where are you? The pulling away only deepened the desire for David to beg God to show His salvation once again and restore His soul. What I see in your posts, is the panting and the longing that the Lord knows is in your heart . And you, struggling to open your heart to the Grace , you know awaits you. When you give yourself to the Him and put the past away, the flood of tears that swells up in you, like a son who as returned to see his father once again after war, will overflow your heart . The manifold grace of having come through the battles, a bit wounded by home will bring you to a place that you could have never been without experiencing what is known as the dark night of the soul and the heavenly bliss on the other side. My prayers are with you.
Reply #64 from JoeUser Forums Top
Despite modernity, Zeus still commands Olympus.
Reply #65 from JoeUser Forums Top
I wrote a very nice respose to all this including my opinions of the four ways we study the Bible, I told you I didn't think you were trying to poison anyone's mind but some people do it (knowingly and unknowingly -- see Lewis's "Abolition of Man") and I thanked you for your kind and thoughtful reply.

I said something about your comment on "happy" Buddhists & "happy" Christians and all that. It was rather marvelous, but I can't seem to remember the point now. (This was at least a week ago.) I know I focused in on your idea of the repulsion of the religion that insists it is the way. I think it was, "I'd rather be with a doctor who can tell me for sure what is wrong rather than with a doctor who can only tell me maybe. I'd also like to see his patients cured, not just 'happy.'" And it wouldn't be okay for them to just insist that their way is the best either. I agree. I'd have to see some kind of proof. A certificate on the wall is good, but I need the word of some other patients who tried the operation. (I'm currently considering surgery and all of this is important to me!) I also need to see how well the problem was corrected indeed. So I'd have to know just what I'm looking for rather than use my superficial onset expectations of what post-operative condititions are. After all, some can look pretty messy unless I know for sure what is good and what is not and how long it should be before certain results. After all this, If I'm satisfied, I'd have the surgery if it means I don't have to take medication all my life or just deal with the pain. Right?

SMO when a person walks into my church for most everyone there: 1. "Hi, My name is _______." (First get a name and REMEMBER IT!) 2. Ask about the person about themselves. (And remember it!) 3. Ask how you can pray for them. That's it. Why do we do this? Because our first priority is to care for the other person, not to "show" we care or to achieve any other goal. I'm the way I am because of God. Not anything to do with me. I'm a pretty icky person when I stop caring about Him and obeying those two main commandments.

By the way, THANK YOU for serving our country and for making us proud. We pray for our troops corporately (as a church) in groups (in Sunday school) and as a family and individually on my way to work or other places in my car. Thank you so much for all your sacrifice, honor, your sense of duty, and your accomplishments for our country. It may not mean anything to you, but I believe only good can come of it, so: God bless you.
Reply #66 from JoeUser Forums Top
I know I'm late to the party, but I want to throw my 2 cents in

Is there only one path to God? I certainly hope not. In fact I find the idea of only one correct path to salvation to fly directly in the face of everything every faith (I use the term instead of religion, because religion by it's nature is limited by human imperfections) tells us about God. God is supposedly infinite, all-loving, limitless in his wisdom, charity, and acceptance. In the example of Christianity, to limit his infinite being to one extremely narrow path which has morphed and changed over time to not even resemble what it supposedly started with (the Gospels) just doesn't make sense. An approximation of it would be to take all the sand on the planet, wrap it up in one giant ball and have it as a physical representation of God. Then arbitrarily pick a single grain of sand out of that massive ball, and say that this single grain is the ONLY valid one for us to pay attention to.

True, there are some core tennants that I think everyone has to go along with in order to reach God (i.e. Don't be an ass... do good things in your life... don't kill others... never wear pink socks with plaid pants etc...), but everything beyond those very basic and simple rules (why would God make it overly difficult to be a "good" person? You'd think he'd leave us with the natural disposition to try that way, no need to have a laundry list a mile long of rules and regulations) is an unnecessary muddying of the essence of God. Back to Christianity... look at the Gospels. What's the basic message they all put forth? Love. Love thy neighbor, enemy, family... EVERYONE. Christ never won anyone over by talking their ear off, he won people over through his actions. People looked at him and said "Ya know what? This guy is OBVIOUSLY onto something here... I mean just look at how he acts" GREAT message that I think holds try across every single faith there is out there. Then we go and muddy it all up with rules, regulations, institutions, government etc...

Just hearing that the entire message and path to God is "love" is too simple. For such an infinitely complex universe as we live in, and how complex everything we as humans create ends up being, we can't accept something so simple. There HAS to be more to it. Therefore there has to be something everyone else missed, the ONE TRUE PATH that is hidden to all but the select few true believers. We want God to be complex, distant, difficult to reach, so we put a whole ton of constraints on him. We limit the essence of God to fit within the very tiny limitations of our meager understanding. If we can't figure out the limited world of genetics (limited by comparison), how can we even scratch the surface of God, who by definition has no limits?
Reply #67 from JoeUser Forums Top
iamheather - This man is your Creator. Your Father in the flesh full of unconditional love for his children. Do you have any children? If so, would you need them to ask you for help? Would you wait to intervene until they were suffering? No, you would do anything for them. Must a parent receive love to love? Absolutely not.

Sabbatimus - That is it is through the dark night of the soul, that God makes His closest friends.

Thank you both for your kind words. In a forum like this, it is easy for debates to get out of hand. It's easy to hit a nerve and open wounds that are best left closed. I have considered what you said. Iamheather, no I don't have any children. I've never been real close with my earthly father so while I can understand what you're trying to say, you're example does nothing for me. Perhaps that is why i find it so difficult to relate with God as my father. I don't really know what that means. Sabbatimus, I am familiar with this concept of the dark night of the soul. Within the Greek Orthodox tradition, it is known as a time of contemplation in which the pilgrim must pass through a period of alienation from God. You are right in saying that I am experiencing the dark night. Jesus said, "My God, my God why have you forsaken me?" as he died on the cross. He was echoing psalm 22, a terrible song of lament and alienation that is right before the more popular Psalm 23, the psalm of the good sheperd. Perhaps he was trying to tell us we must walk through the valley through the shadow of death before we can fear no evil. You used extensive battle allegories, but inorder to battle you must first be alive. You assume I live when really I am dead spiritually. You can't kill someone who's already dead. You can only destroy their entire worldview by resurrecting them. And this is my hope. All other things I can disregard or doubt, but either this man Jesus came back to life or he didn't. If he did, well that's a neat trick I'd like to learn. If he didn't, then Christians are the most pathetic specimens of self-induced dementia in the entire history of world religions. The Apostle Paul even says so in one of his letters. I have always seen the cross as the fundamental doctrine of Christianity, but now I see I was wrong. The cross ends with the death of God, the triumph of death and sin over all that is good and noble. It is a terribly depressing theology yet one I sincerely believed in. No wonder I hated Christianity so much. It has no power, only endless repentance and begging for mercy that's already been granted. What a spineless and cowardly way to live one's life! Never to embrace life, or live passionately, or challenging injustice for fear of breaking a law or nulifying one's salvation. That's how I lived and rejected instinctively in the Church. If the resurrection is true, then death is the beginning, not the end of life. We've been mistaken in believing that the cross is good news. The cross is not good news. Only a sadist would take pleasure in the death and torture of an innocent man. The good news comes in the resurrection.
Reply #68 from JoeUser Forums Top
Echo_December, I appreciate your reply. Christians are generally not spineless or cowardly. The hope in Christians makes them fighers and noble, self-less and giving. As Christians we are taught to embrace both life and death, not one or the other. Life in the flesh is the glorifying of Christ and death, the hope of eternal life. Death is the gate to eternal life, whether we live or we die, we glorify God. Christians do not take pleasure in the torture and death of the innocent. As Christians we mourn the death and torture of the innocent. We celebrate the victory and the things won for us, through the sacrifice of our Lord. In the same way, we Americans all mourn the suffering of our soldiers in World War 1 and 2, while we also celebrate the freedom that is made so much more precious to us by their sacrifice, yes even torture and death. So much more, if the earthly celebrate those things which are materially and earthly won for them, we, Christians celebrate the more lasting things of eternal life and the victory over sin gained for us, through Christ.

I can empathize with you not having a close relationship with your earthly father, it was much the same for me. I've traveled through my own dark night of the soul, I do know in some way what you are going through. Yes, the struggle is very difficult. The mercies that are granted are given value by the repentance. Our heart is prepared to recieve the mercies through repentance. It is not that mercy is earned through repentance but that Grace and Mercy brings us to repentance. Rom.2 shows that it is the goodness and kindness of God which leads us to repentance. Which Grace and Mercy calls you to this day, through His Son, Christ Jesus. Echo_December, your situation reminds me of Davids when he tried to hide from God. Ps 32: "1 Blessed is he whose transgression is forgiven, whose sin is covered. 2Blessed is the man unto whom the LORD imputeth not iniquity, and in whose spirit there is no guile. 3When I kept silence, my bones waxed old through my roaring all the day long. 4For day and night thy hand was heavy upon me: my moisture is turned into the drought of summer. Selah. If you insist, you may keep silence and run from God. It doesn't appear to be all that satisfying to you as it wasn't for David. Bu,t far better it be for you as it was David after he confessed, ". 5I acknowledged my sin unto thee, and mine iniquity have I not hid. I said, I will confess my transgressions unto the LORD; and thou forgavest the iniquity of my sin. Selah. 6For this shall every one that is godly pray unto thee in a time when thou mayest be found: surely in the floods of great waters they shall not come nigh unto him.
Reply #69 from JoeUser Forums Top
It is not that mercy is earned through repentance but that Grace and Mercy brings us to repentance. Rom.2 shows that it is the goodness and kindness of God which leads us to repentance. Which Grace and Mercy calls you to this day, through His Son, Christ Jesus. Echo_December, your situation reminds me of Davids when he tried to hide from God. Ps 32: "1 Blessed is he whose transgression is forgiven, whose sin is covered. 2Blessed is the man unto whom the LORD imputeth not iniquity, and in whose spirit there is no guile. 3When I kept silence, my bones waxed old through my roaring all the day long. 4For day and night thy hand was heavy upon me: my moisture is turned into the drought of summer. Selah. If you insist, you may keep silence and run from God. It doesn't appear to be all that satisfying to you as it wasn't for David. Bu,t far better it be for you as it was David after he confessed, ". 5I acknowledged my sin unto thee, and mine iniquity have I not hid. I said, I will confess my transgressions unto the LORD; and thou forgavest the iniquity of my sin. Selah. 6For this shall every one that is godly pray unto thee in a time when thou mayest be found: surely in the floods of great waters they shall not come nigh unto him.


Excellent advice Sabbatismus

Oh what love..... That a man would lay down His life.......... No greater love hath a man that he would die for those that were at enmity with Him.

God Bless
preacherman
Reply #70 from JoeUser Forums Top
If you insist, you may keep silence and run from God. It doesn't appear to be all that satisfying to you as it wasn't for David. Bu,t far better it be for you as it was David after he confessed,


The only sin I ever committed was wasting my life for fear of becoming my father. There is tremendous power inside me, and a murderous thirst for more. My psychological make up predisposes me towards ruling others. I don't care about making friends and I don't care about knowledge for its own sake. I want power and it is all I can do to hold the dogs of war back before they engulf this entire world into a hell I have created. I am disgusted by men like Stalin and Hitler, but the true horror is that I can understand and think like them. I would rather die before becoming that monster. I would rather flunk out of school and destroy my life than take that chance. And you see, this is the power of unrepentance. It demonizes another and imprisons you to the one you hate. You can no longer see reality. I lost my father because I made him out to be a demon and was unwilling to see the good times we shared. I lost years of my own life playing out a war that had been over for years because of my unrepentance. You see it in the Balkans where Serbs and Muslims are playing out a war that has been over for a thousand years. You become trapped, a prisoner to your own hate and rage.
You are right in saying Grace and Mercy are the key. Grace is the only force in the universe strong enough to counter this horrifying spirit within me. It's not that I don't believe there are multiple religions. It's that I know my spirit is powerful enough and cunning enough to subvert and manipulate all religions to my will. The desire for power will corrupt and twist even the most noble and altruistic faiths. Grace, forgiveness, mercy these are the only forces strong enough to combat this desire within me. For a while, I can forget the rage and feel at peace. Perhaps Marx is right in saying that religion is the opiate of the masses. The comfort I feel is akin to a drug-induced haze of warmth and bliss, but perhaps we are confusing what is reality and what is dream. Perhaps the nightmare I see around me is the dream. Horrifying visions of hatred and violence, apathy and distrust slowly emerging from my TV set like a creepy dead girl coming to steal my soul. Perhaps this 'opiate' is the reality, a place where I can call home and no longer be alone.