This is all very interesting, Amish, and it's great there's finally a counter to the rather boring LRF spamtastic battles, but...

doesn't that leave this diagram look rather faulty?

I could see supports countering with their abilities.  That is after all what was implied with arcovas.  They wouldn't stand a chance against Gauss Guns without Timed Explosives.

DING DING DING DING DING

Well, the Scout Cavalry (Or should I say Mini-Cavalry? ) is essentially the Feudal age Knight. Scout frigates as a combat unit are pretty similar to AOK Scouts.

Also, I've never seen Vasari use a Scout/LF spam. You may want to remove their pictures.

Excellent point.  Illuminators specifically i think should have been higher in the tech tree for what they do. (Not that i want them higher, they're just tough, not mentioning the latest bug...I'm talking about the fact that they seem to target multiple enemies at once with each of their 3 batteries.  And at 17 average damage per attack, that's saying something to their power.)

I once concidered fielding nothing but TEC Javelis', back before i saw these forums and started ICO, because they had a lower supply cost, did more damage, and cost less creds/metal, using a little crystal instead.  But i'm more of a fleet-diversifier and couldn't bring myself to do it.  And back then i didn't realize their strengths/weaknesses against different units.

I do think LRFs should be one of the stronger units in the game, as their primary purpose was to take out defense platforms (Actually, buildings in general) from outside of their firing range.  Maybe if they were made a little easier to kill, like losing some hull or armor...

But we're here discussing Scout/LF Spam, not necessarily the Illuminator so...

The spam in question WAS created by another spam, so logically, there has to be a start to it all.  What we need to do is find out what the FIRST popular spam was, what people did commonly to counter it, and why the next popular spam was introduced.  Repeat untill we reach scout/lf.  A Timeline like this would do more to figure this problem out than one might think.  (And maybe give some insight as to what may be next...)

I disagree with Amish' views on Fighters, i generally make about half my squadrons or more into them, mostly to counter enemy strikecraft, but also because there is a descent number of units weak to them.  LRF, Bomber, Fighters themselves, siege, scout, and i think i'm forgetting 1...

I'd also like to see an updated chart like the one Apheirox posted.

BTW, Amish, i gave you karma for this after my last post.

Two things popped into my head when I read this.

1. I actually don't use this tactic all that often, or at least past the first tier. I fight it more than I use it. My first fleet is just about always 1/2 light frig, 1/2 scouts (on a small scale, like 6 lf and 10 scouts).I find it to be a poor investment to make them in masse, and I will keep smurfing the users of this tactic until they stop.

2. I get a skirantra when Vasari, so that means the Evacuator won't die. Health cloud helps it too (and a repair bay, heals at 40 hps overall, not too shabby in the very early stages on one military lab). The Marza could potentially die, though I like to run it or sit in a repair bay. I tend to move it around too. Scouts/lfs's suck at hitting moving targets. I don't mind losing a low level cap if it means I'm going to rape his fleet. Obviously the Marza will rule the day if it hits level 6, but provided the Marza was your first pick for a capital ship, it should get to a high enough level that it can make it to and sustain in a repair bay, OR if it is a low level cap, that means your first cap was either an Akkan or a Sova. If it's a sova you're set. Those missile turrets are gold against this tactic. If it's an Akkan, you'd best rely on hitting the Progen with Ion bolt to stop shield regen.

P.S. One of my favorite things to do is to just get rid of the scouts. They are dead weight, so I buy the tier 3 ability Martydon for the seekers and run them all into the enemy cap. That is fun, though a risk, because after that you have little to no fleet.

P.S.S. If the scouts/lf's are in masse, where the hell's your fleet? If your enemy invests in a fleet, you have to invest in one too. And I feel this further cements that the users of this tactic are the users of the Illum spam: Going after the cap is something we saw a lot of when LRF was god, but now there's another tactic that's trying to do the same thing at the same stage of the game (first 30 min), and is actually doing it slower so as to allow the cap to make it to a repair bay, so I'm actually happy this strategy has come about. The old days of "mass more lrfs than your opponent, target enemy cap, chase enemy cap, kill enemy cap, finish off enemy fleet, win rush" are gone.

You think this tactic is mindless? It's the lrf spam that I thought was mindless. You just ran on auto-pilot after you did it enough times. Now there's a counter to it, so poeple have moved to the next strategy that requires the least amount of effort (though this time it's......wait for it.....COUNTERABLE).

Cykur you got some good points in there, but I also play primarily Vasari, and while this strat has caught me off guard a few times, theres a few things I personally do to fight it back. And while I certainly feel that with the weakness of both the skirms and navigators make it particularly tough to manage an opposing army of similar units, watching how guys like JJ, Howthe and Fortune manage those types of fleets has taught me some important stuff.

First, going on the defensive that early doesn't mean game over. Watching replays with JJ has taught me that its nearly impossible to stop him from expanding and attack his key planets at the same time, which is often how he stays alive and kicking against the crazy odds people throw at him. He rarely uses his colonizer cap for battle, but would rather send it off to nab asteroids, terrans and deserts towards the center of the map (understanding the behavior of militia AI is certainly important). More logistics in safer places. As long as theres money coming in, it doesnt matter what kinda structures you lose. I'm not saying that everyone should do this always, I'm just saying what I usually do. 9 times out of 10 it pays off. Wathing a couple of replays with fortune and Kl3mz, I learned the benefit of scuttling. When my structures are under attack (with a little practice) Ive learned to time when to hit the scuttle button to try and get the refund just before its destroyed, the benefit of which I use to rebuild that structure somewhere else (eggs build bonus helps A LOT). And lemme tell you how worth it the investment in a few turrets can be if you see scouts/lfs coming.

I usually head straight for Carriers as vasari, because lets face it, Vasari bombers are good against everything (flak included, fighters of course excluded), plus with the recent jump in popularity of carrier caps, a carrier or two with fighters can slap down the early game advantage they offer. Sometimes though I'll get rushed before I can get enough to do much, specifically by the strat in question. Lfs are dangerous to my strat yes, but with a litte fancy micro, I can usually keep (most of) my carriers alive. Long enough to drive off or kill their cap, which means my HW is safe. If I do run into this strategy I usually do the one Vasari thing that will absolutely best it, Starbase.

It can be tricky to starbase, especially without feed. I usually pump out two or three migrators, which my opponent will chase down immediately because well, if they dont they get screwed. I'll jump them in, out, move em around until I get the cash i need to sb, then lure them away from one with another or my carriers, then deploy. Unless those troops are right on top of it, chances are they won't be able to kill it before it pops up. I focus on the lfs while its building iwth my carriers, which are usually safe because hes either trying to kill the SB or running away, and without sufficient lfs, he doesnt stand a chance of killing the sb. I've done this upwards of 10 times, and most of the time it works. The times it hasnt were because crappyness of my spot on the map, and honestly theres not much you can do against any rush in a bad spot on the map. Beyond the first attack with this rush, its pretty easy to beat a fleet consisting of only scouts and lfs, as RA has pointed out above. This isn't the ONLY thing one could possibly do, but seeign as this is a thread to discuss strategies to counter lfs/scouts, thought I'd put across how I handle em.

About fighters, I agree that they have never been balanced correctly.  First, they were far too weak, and thus lrm was uncounterable except with one's own lrm.  Then with the "carriers rule" patch of the game, fighers (or carriers?) were way too strong.  They were completely uncounterable except with one's own fighters.  Well, Cykur knows that I never employ the "current spam of the day" - I'd honestly rather lose.  I don't think he ever saw me build a single carrier back in the days of uber-carriers.  I lost a lot, but at least I did it... *my* way.

Then more changes were made to the game, and carriers/fighters were dethroned off of their lofty perch, and lrm spam was back in vogue.  Fighters were once again too weak to counter lrm spam.  But now we have something that will - the scout.  Some people are unhappy about that.

Just personal preference - I found lrm (and carrier) spam in the past to be completely asinine.  Thus my personal preference is for a counter to lrm spam in scout spam.  I think most people complaining about scout spam are lrm/illum spammers who are pissed that their age old tactic doesn't automatically work anymore.

I don't include Cykur in that category by any means - he could win most games with any unit, and I think he has legitimate concerns about tier 0 units being in such a stong position to dictate the flow of the game, blah blah.  And he has different personal preferences (as does anyone) about which flavor of spam offends his taste buds the most.  For me, it was the absurd carrier spam that makes me want to projectile vomit when I think about it even to this day... but truth be told lrm/illum spam has been a far greater problem in this game's history, and I want to hurl when I recall it as well.  If I have to choose my flavor of spam, it's scout spam every day, and twice on sundays.

This is not a shot at the devs (it really isn't), but I think they lack the tools, resources, abilities, etc. to truly balance this game.  There are probably good reasons for such lack of tools, resoures, etc., i.e. my intuition tells me that there are too many mathematical variables at play in this game, and one is confronted by a "combinatorial explosion" (as we say in computer science) when trying to balance them all.  In other words, it may require a supercomputer, or several, to balance this game, along with a team of programmers with ph.d.'s in mathematics.  So the game will always be coarse-balanced for SP, probably never fine-balanced for MP.

So, since fine-balance will never be forthcoming, we have to pick a poison.  Naturally, the picking of poison for most people will be a subjective thing.  Subjectively for me, scout spam agitates my projectile vomit reflex less than carrier spam or lrm spam.  When subjected to scout spam, I can hold back the geyser of pressurized puke for a longer period of time before it inevitably explodes out of most of my facial orifices (mouth, nose, etc).  And I have actually on occasion enjoyed watching an illum spammer get their ass handed to them by a scout spammer.  I never enjoyed seeing a carrier spammer get raped back in the day, except by another carrier spammer, and I never saw an illum spammer get raped back in the day, except by another illum spammer.  I've never seen a damn Marza abuser get what's coming to him (man, I STILL can't believe the devs have left MB essentially unchanged).  But at least with the current balance, I have had occasion, however small and fleeting, to throw my head back and belch out a good laugh.

The folks who want to move away from scout spam should explain what will happen to the game if we adjust the scout, and why such a modified game will be better than what we have currently.  For instance, will we move back to illum spam again?  If so, this is better WHY?  Since Cykur is both extremely knowledgeable and quite well-spoken (as well as being the nicest player I've ever had the pleasure of being face-raped by), perhaps he can take a crack at this?

(The real truth is, I think this "1 unit at a time" mode of balancing the game is just a perpetual game of "whack a mole."  One unit is too strong?  Nerf it.  Then another unit becomes too strong.  So nerf it.  Then another imbalance occurs, ad nauseum.  We need a more wholistic approach to game balancing.  Can anyone donate a supercomputer to the project?)

EDITS:  Just corrected a misspelling and a stray parenthesis.

Somehaw i fail to see the problem of spammer... utill he get bugged stinking 50 lums.

But until then (thx Tyr u restored my faith in me and vasari)    i usualy rush rushers

A case very-well stated.  Thanks.

Im not saying lums cant be coutered. I just say that 50 lums need  a fleet of 1,5 costsize of advent 50 lusm + progen. Try to counter an equal advent player without great neutrals advantage .And if they r properly upgraded they will melt everything. Sure u can use several tactiks, but all of them requires eco and fleet advantage.

The main problem with lums is  every stinking little bug makes extra 40 dmg. Devs admited it when JJ made all the testing job for them but still didnt do shit to fix it. All i heard is "next hotfix" and "i have a glith in my chip lums r too powerfull"

very proffesional behaviour.

Idea about increasing and equaling scouts costs look nice

Well go let Deceiver know if you want to change your votes around on his poll.    When you adjust for metal cost, a Vasari Navigator costs about 337.5 credits, so I don't feel bad at all if Seekers & Scouts cost 250 cr and also took 3 supply.

I'm hoping when the Illuminator bug that JJ found is fixed, Illuminators will be a lot more in line.  They are still going to be tough because of their instant damage / strafing strategies, but hopefully not as bad as they are now.  That said, I still think there needs to be a progression of ships that are effective as you move up the tech tree.  So if you like the Scout balancing idea, go vote on Deceiver's poll thread.  

I finally got into a game with some "pro-ish types" (my connection has been so horrible it has been impossible for a long time).  I'll be damned if I wasn't lrm spammed by a TEC.  I was playing Advent, no less.  I saw him building his lrm fleet, so I started building seekers, but I kept them at my home planet, in reserve.  I kept thinking that as long as he didn't actually "bring it" and spam me directly, I wouldn't spam him back, but of course he did roll into my planets with that shit as soon as he possibly could.  So I hit him with the seekers and he screamed "scout spammer!"

It's like "WHAT?!"  So eff'ing typical, I guess.  A damn lrm spammer calling someone else a spammer who only spammed him back in self defense!  I have far too much of a sense of fairness and fair play with these games, I guess.  It's like, why did I ever hold back to begin with?  I think I'm just going to start taking a totally cutthroat, no holes barred approach to online gaming from now on, just like everyone else does.

At any rate, that story was simply to say, lrm spam is still there, even from pro-ish types who know about the scout.  Even though the "cat is out of the bag" with the scout, the lrm spammers are just chomping at the bit at a chance to spam lrm again, unmolested.  If the scout is nerfed this crap will come back so fast and so hard your head will spin.

I say no adjustments to scouts should even be considered until there is a decent way to deal with lrm spam waiting in the wings.  And right now, there isn't.