The thing is, appeasing the 15 % will only help to improve the game for the 85%.

If you look at steam's # of players that played steam and the ICO's online count at peak hours, it would suggust that more than 15% of the playerbase play multiplayer... and that doesnt include lan.

Id be willing to wager that 50% ish or of the people that start up rebellion these days are playing ICO or private games.

Id expect that number to drop when sins is officially released, as scores of new people start learning the game... but right now the number of players playing online and number of players playing... not a small slice.

The finer strategies in MP? LOL you mean spamming LRMs and corvettes?

Driving a wedge in the community? The OP does an excellent job at that, same with the comp stomps are for losers thread. I don't have to do anything the overly competitive MP'ers do that just fine thank you. I will never play multiplayer here unless its with friends, the overall community IS rude, arrogant and lacks tact. There are a few VERY few MP players out there that are generally fun to play with, because they are out for a good time and don't beat their chests staing how great MP is or try to force people from a game because to them its already over despite the fact the other side can still put up a fight or even turn the tables.

Also there is the issue of the treatment of people new to the game, noobs seem to get thrashed rather heavily and bashed, it takes one bad experince to drive someone who would probably liked MP away.

 Like it or not there is an us vs them simply due to the fact that if one side gets more rescources then the other side will suffer, single player vs multiplayer, which one to fund more? This is more pronounced in companies that don't have a huge budget to work with. And also due to the attitude of some of the more prominent posters here.

As for units, every unit is effective in its own way, and if its used properly. You know this. The KOL can be nasty in the right situation, the trick in these game is to determine what the proper situation is or is not.

Another issue you brought up is the quick start feature... seriously I NEVER play with that, why do things always have to go at such a fast pace these days? I hate it what happened to the games that take hours or days. I have never been in a muliplayer game that lasted over 50 minutes... seriously? Come on lets have some fun.

And that is my last point, too few people here seem to simply want to have fun, it seems its all about winning the most games in the shortest amount of time. And if its going to be that way I don't want to see my single player experinced ruined for people like this. This is meant to be an epic game that take hours or days to finish, where long term thinking and planning is supposed to matter over the short term actions taken.

LAWL!!!! There is no long term thinking in SP. Its main strategy is MAKE BIG FLEET AND ROFL AS YOU STEAM ROLL AI.

Going from last to first.

Whats the strategy is LRF and vette spam? Why are games like Cod and SCII so popular? Why are games like Sins not so popular? It should be obvious because a majority of people don't like to focus one a single task for long periods of time. Why is everyone wanting this game to go faster? There was a term for it I saw here "twitch gaming" I think it was.

I have never seen in the MP games I have played a long term strategy by anyone, it was rush your opponent the fastest with one or two types of unit. Where is the strategy in that? Its no different that C&C3 and 4 or SCII And over in a similar amount of time.

On the opposite side of that why is Sins popular with its player base? Because its different, or supposed to be different from the clickfest gaming that is so prevalent in todays market. It caters to the more indepth player who in theory would enjoy a more drawn out and indepth game. And I am assuming that there are some MP players that feel that way as well.

As for the titans Yes you should be able to steamroll an Ai with a ship that costs 9500 credits 1200 metal and 750 crystal not to mention the investment for the foundry and the time it takes you to build it. (Its certainly not something I would invest in for multiplayer)

As for my tolerance to the current state of the game, I am playing it to have fun and take the game for what it is. And whats wrong with that?

And finally you continue to harp on my "inexperienced" while not knowing how long I have been playing this game at all. If you really care about such things I have been playing since sins vanilla and bought each expansion as they came out. I registered on the forums in 2008 but was playing several months before that and have sunk hundreds of hours into each of them, for the beta I have 226 hours of game play so I am not "inexperienced" by any means. However I do not play MP as you stated and don't care about it and the way the community portrays itself does not help their cause at all either. Seriously saying someone who plays MP is more valuable feedback wise than some one who has played SP for the same amount of time, don't you think that is arrogant in and of itself?

As for my multiplayer experince its being generous if I say that I have played six hours in legit matches. I have played more with friends in compstomps, but hey those don't count right?

Now that is a nicely thought out post. Qood work on explaining the spamming thing too.

@ polistes

I play SOASE online, and it's far less  "twitchy" then other online RTS games. That's actually what drew me to playing online. There really isn't a "dumbing" down at all; I actually think it's more thoughtful than playing against the A.I! The pace of a multiplayer round is faster, I will say, but it's still far slower than say, Age of Empires or Starcraft. The average match in SOASE can last 1-2 hours, compared to say 5-30 minutes of other games. That's the appeal that has kept me playing SOASE all these years; it takes a lot more thinking instead of just a 'battle of clicks'.

Either way, it's pretty obvious that the players who are on ICO generally know more about the mechanics of the game than the exclusively single-player guys. This is because the mechanics ultimately mean more if it comes between victory and defeat. It's a lot harder to 'game' another person than the A.I in SOASE, so you get a far bigger view of the problems of the game. The developers should ultimately listen to who has the most experience with mechanics problems first-hand, the ICO players.

In this way, better balance in the game can be had, which benefits everybody. I do think you should try a couple good games on ICO; it's a heck of a lot different than what you'd think.

I'll bring the cookies!

Some of you here know that nightraider is trolling and saying unnecessary things but at the same time want to play the neutral role where hes both right an wrong for the sake of karma i guess. You remind me of some the politicians in this world.

I understand that its difficult for you to endure such pain when playing but be aware that there is a mini-dump folder and saved game folder to help the devs find the problem. Also update any graphics drivers. This game cost you but its not released yet and the nature of the problems we are facing now are not going to be solved if we give up on sending feedback. Software developtment can be frustrating and human error is prawn to happen in coding.  

Nightraid3r its with my deepest condolences that you suffered that many minidumps and i know you enjoy playing this game but the best thing we can all do is zip the mini-dump files, saved files ,attach them and send them to  rebellionbeta@stardock.com with a description of what you were doing. 

The game is being produced by a skeleton crew so you are very important in  the development stage. 

It will pass. The only thing you can do is picture your self in a situation where if you open the game then your essentially at Starclads studios about to start a day of debuggin specifically looking for mini-dumps and sending the files. The problem your all saying is the beta is now unplayable but its best to send your mini-dump results for the greater good.

Further more-as you can see in this Q&A at gamespy with Chris Bray:

http://pc.gamespy.com/pc/sins-of-a-solar-empire-rebellion/1224813p1.html

Bray

: The Vasari Rebel and Loyalist factions were just introduced in Beta 3, so we've definitely uncovered some balance issues with a few of their abilities. One of the new capabilities of the Vasari Rebels allows them to phase jump their starbases between planets. This gives their starbases excellent strategic flexibility, but is admittedly a bit over-powered in competitive multiplayer. It's something we're definitely addressing.

" as you can see they are aware of the balance problems"

@ sinperium

Na its not like that at all, its a public display of the morale of the player base.  There is a very real anger stirring on the beta, people are just getting fed up.  Its a regular practice to shoot a warning shot across a ships bow before you sink it during peacetime, this is that shot.  We don't want to sink the ship, we want her to change her course. 

Your casual aloof apathy says more about you the it does about anyone on this thread.  I pity you.

No it's a public display of a minority of immature people rudely acting out--whether they are right or not. 

Some people are angry and fed up...the ones acting out here are the ones who feel their opinions are the most important and are demanding that they be acknowledged as such.

This sounds more like a lynch mob wanting a pound of flesh a lot more than they want change.

This is the third beta by a company I have been in where I've seen angry testers demanding subservience by the developers and threatening to bash their product if they didn't get an apology and all the changes they wanted, "Now!".

In the previous two, I saw the developers just say, "Screw it" and ditch the product and delete the forums and move on to a new project.

When  you get invited to beta test, it isn't an invitation to dump rage, rant and threaten--it's a chance to contribute constructive criticism with clear and thoughtful responses and to make observations--not demands.

If I came into your house, called you a moron and told you to study harder for school or I was going to go around and tell everyone what an idiot you were--how would you respond?

Your chance to actually bash the product is when it is pronounced finished by the company and you don't buy it or when you buy the finished product and it doesn't provide what was offered by the seller.

You might not recognize that the mindset and response represented here is less than 5% of the total players going by the previous polls and comments on the forums...but from the tone of these posts, you'd think they were the 90%... they certainly are in their own minds.

Screaming, angry, ranting school kids aren't going to provoke a lot of real change--you're just going to make the developers feel there's no point in trying to please you and then move on to something else.  Unlike you, they won't post angry rants--they'll just be doing new projects if you really want to tear down the house all the time.

I'm not apathetic.  Try PMing key people on the development team.  Try getting with your friends and crafting well thought out, clear and constructive suggestions and keep the thread up front and active.  Of course you can keep screaming insults--I'm sure that's going to work.

The person who does get paid to yell and scream and lean on the developers is the head developer and company head.  Try sending a private message, email or even an online petition to them.  If you make your case, they'll do the effective yelling and screaming for you.

Really? You shouldn't.  There are starving kids in Africa and ones being gunned down in Syria and people unjustly imprisoned for crimes they didn't commit--pity them. This is a game and a business--it isn't going to be perfection incarnate or meet all of your needs.

When the game is settled and finished, I'll be posting right along with everyone about what I think was or wasn't delivered.  But I'll sure as heck do it smart and not like someone who failed anger management.

I don't disagree with everything said here--nor do I agree with all of it.  I think constructive critiques should be presented but not emotional tirades...that's all.

You might think "they work" but I guarantee you that they don't.

On a final note...I think it would be wonderful if the developers culled through the active player-poster base and selected ones they feel can offer balanced and insightful opinions and actually asked them to give a "no holds barred" evaluation of the project--at the point they feel that it would be helpful.

I don't think they'll be asking you with this attitude.

I'm not going to repeat every opinion I have stated in other threads. I just want to say that like many other ICO veterans I'm considering just giving up on Sins. I love this game, I have played it regularly for past 3 years and I'm one of last people to whine because there are few things in beta that need patching. Unfortunately, it's more than that. Continuous neglect of MP aspect of the game, MDs and abysmal state of balance have taken most of the fun out of this game. If things don't improve in coming months, I'm out of here.

[Edit] it was 5 in the morning when i wrote this because my cats were jerks, so have some compassion b4 shredding my grammar or punctuation [/Edit]

As someone who plays both scII and sins, let me be the first here to clarify something: SCII is far from a click fest rush in 5 minutes and win/lose game. Anyone who claims that SCII is about rushing obviously has no grasp of the game or its mechanics. SCII is at its very core and in its very design an economy style of rts. Is it true that SCII games are far shorter than sins games? yes of course the games are shorter and the pace is much faster, but that does not make the game "cookie cutter" or a "click fest" I have a very low apm (actions per minute) style of play and yet i am able to consistently find myself getting ranked in diamond league (second highest tier if you ignore the grandmaster tier which includes only 200 players/accounts per region) on the matchmaking ladder in SCII because i have a decent grasp of mechanics tactics and strategies. if you want a better indication of SCII's true nature take a visit to http://day9.tv/ and watch some of his videos. they very from very serious discussions to funny shenanigans.

Now on to the sins part. Sins is great because it is a longer game, and sometimes the longer game can be a bit more relaxing. I will give people that compared to most other rts it is a lot less stressful specifically because it is slower and more relaxed. It is a game with a ton of potential and it does seem to be wasted by developers that appear to lack consistency in their product.

Just to start, the minidumps are aweful. I have played my fair share of computer games of all types and styles and i have never ever seen a game that crashed or desynced like sins does. I dont profess to be a programmer of any degree, but i find it a bit embarrassing that in my own sins experience, there is not a game that i play just about in MP where at least one person didn't minidump or desync. This is an issue that should have taken priority over even releasing the advent for the beta.

Secondly, it has ALWAYS confused me why sins has such a lack of focus on multiplayer when the game has no storyline. I can understand a huge portion of the community likes to rts vs the AI and whatnot and i spend a fair chunk of my time doing the same for the rolaplay factor of it all, but to have no storyline should automatically suggest a focus on multiplayer, and its just not there. Lets cover a few of the issues i notice:

-- poor multiplayer environment in general from the way the game lobby is organized and operated to the very un-engaging chat system.

-- no matchmaking of any kind

-- Difficult to differentiate player skill level in game lobby resulting in an average game setup time of 15-30 minutes (no joke check your watches) (keep in mind most other rts games u can already have played a full game in that time) (no one likes to sit around NOT playing the game for hours on end)

-- arguments about balance (i lack the experience playing to make my own assessments, but these arguments are there and they are heated and have some merit i think)

-- poor standardization of maps (this is my biggest argument. When the only map people play is random, strategies seem to fly out the window. People try to claim that randomizing the maps enhances strategies, but what do we always see? diplo saw 99% lrf spam, and rebellion now sees early corvette spam transitioning into flac spam. Its all very intellectually uninspiring. Games like starcraft 2 for example standardize their ladder maps for a very good reason. When you know your playing field you can exploit its features and plan ahead. When you dont know your playing field, you are forced to compromise and try to cover all of your bases at once. This is the biggest reason why MP becomes rather monotonous. The irony of it all is that the majority of the community tries to argue that sins as a game is less monotonous then games like SCII when in reality the opposite is true. The same style of play in sins is always being used and has been for as long as ive played, and when talking to veteran players has always existed. Track SCII over its history and notice an ever changing arena of styles strategies and tactics.

I realize that i have glorified SCII here in my topic but for good reason. Its a game that is amazingly successful and for very good reasons, however ALL OF THE THINGS THAT MAKES SCII SO SUCCESSFUL ARE THINGS THAT COULD BE INCORPORATED IN SINS. From a more engaging chat-room environment, to a matchmaking system that speeds up game creation, to stability fixes that make the game last, and the victories more meaningful (then roflstomping 5v1 cuz the poor guy's allies got minidumped)

I started playing sins diplomacy a few months ago because i wanted something new that involved spaceships and space combat. I had originally intended to find a game that involved tactics as opposed to strategy but there really aren't any out there of any real quality imo. What drew me to sins was the scale of combats. Something about large fleet fights is entertaining. I go back and forth between SCII and sins because the change in environment keeps them both fresh for me.