Let's rewind to these 2 Entrenchment Previews.

Gamespy:

http://pc.gamespy.com/pc/sins-of-a-solar-empire-expansion-box/919968p2.html

Gamespot:

http://www.gamespot.com/pc/strategy/sinsofasolarempireentrenchment/news.html?sid=6199356&tag=topslot;thumb;1

 

and now a few snippets of interview from each of these....

Gamespy:

 

Star bases are hideously expensive space stations that can be placed anywhere within the orbital radius of a star. Unlike other facilities, they can orbit gas giants and circle asteroids or plasma storms or other space phenomena and get universal bonuses for doing so. They can also be parked in gravity wells belonging to other players. Fraser himself seems giddy at the strategic possibilities inherent in that feature. "There are definitely going to be sun-squatters," he says, referring to a new tactic in which players will now find value in placing star bases in otherwise empty star systems to get particular bonuses or to cut off key phase lanes.

 

While not as big a change as the addition of star bases, the team has also gone through every production facility and ship in the game and made some serious tweaks that Fraser feels will come as a surprise to long-time Sins fans. "When you're building a base, where do you put your hangers" he asks, referring to the orbital that produces small fighters. When we answer that we really don't have any one place, Fraser nods in satisfaction. "Exactly! No one does" According to Fraser, one of the development team's goals for Entrenchment was that everything on the screen needs to have a tactical function. If a logistics structure was merely a production facility, it needed to have some tactical utility added or have its functions rolled into a different structure. That led to thing like the addition of flak cannons to hangers and a meson laser and short-range missiles to gauss cannons. The flak cannons are a radius bomber defense and the additions to the gauss cannons are used against heavy vessels and zippy little ships that used to steamroll over the basic gauss. "We're giving reasons to not sit back and let the computer handle individual battles," Fraser said. "We want tactical skill to mean something."

 

The Ironclad development team is also looking at Entrenchment to deepen the game's strategy without making a tough learning curve even tougher. One of the ways the team found was actually to correct a mistake in the original game. "We never want to do what we did with capital ships again," Fraser said. He was referring to the possibility of eventually getting every upgrade for a capital ship. This lengthened an already long-running game by encouraging players to hold out for maxed-out flagships. Entrenchment's star bases, on the other hand, will not be able to be maxed out. Instead, players will have to decide exactly what functions they want their base to fulfill and level it accordingly. "We want players to make hard choices about what improvements they add to their star base," Fraser said. Apparently the ultimate idea is to not only makes it more fun for the base builder, but to deepen the strategy for their opponents by offering enemy units with varying capabilities to respond to.

 

and Gamespot

Each of the three faction's star bases will be very expensive, far and away the most costly unit in the game. To put it into perspective, a star base will cost roughly the same as five capital ships, the most expensive unit in the original Sins, and Iron Clad estimates you won't even have enough resources for such a unit until mid-to-late into a game. But it's worth the wait. Once constructed, a star base can be placed anywhere on the map, including the previously inaccessible gravity wells of stars. A star base will allow you to attack and defend at two key points on the map. Once constructed, your fleet will be available to make key offensive attacks, while the base can manufacture frigates, as well as defend your own planetary systems with its formative attack power and range. Star bases are massive in size--a typical fighter is about 10 meters long, while a base is more than 1,000 meters long. They are not invincible, but eliminating an enemy star base would be extremely costly, requiring several capital ships and super weapons.

A problem with Sins, notes Iron Clad, is that once you took your massive fleet on the offensive, this would allow a weaker enemy to circumvent your fleet and attack a poorly defended homeworld. It was very difficult to wage wars on multiple fronts, so the star base will allow you to move the battle lines in your favor. Should you choose to go on the offensive with a star base, you could, for example, construct it in an enemy's gravity wells. All of your enemy's resources would be devoted to destroying your star base, and you would be free to mobilize your fleet.

Like capital ships, star bases will be upgradeable and able to level up. However, you will have to pick the specialization of your upgrades among military, manufacturing, and trading, so you'll have to choose your deployment location and specializations wisely.

 Now, notice how the first line in each one says something to the fact that SB's will be VERY< VERY EXPENSIVE?????????????????

They are not that way right now and not being used in the way they were initially intended.

14,063 views 19 replies
Reply #1 Top

Well, to play devil's advocate, those were a while ago. Things change in development. Maybe they wanted them to be accessible early so people who play shorter MP games could still have a chance to toy around with starbases, rather than leaving them as an exclusive "big map long game" toy, you know? :P

Reply #2 Top

too true...this could be exactly what happened.  Still I was hoping for things to remain as I read originally...one can always hope, right?!?

Reply #3 Top

Well, the beta process is just starting. Historically, Ironclad isn't too shy about tweaking and re-tweaking things. We all need to put a good chunk of time into playing with them and form well rounded opinions and thoughts. A lot of the posts now are mostly twitch-reactions, so I imagine IC is treating them with a bit of grain of salt ;)

Reply #4 Top

I'm not so sad at the loss of cost as I am at the loss of these "bonuses" you get for building a base near a sun, or in a magnetic cloud, or around a gas giant, etc.

That sounds like it would've been fun.

Reply #5 Top

Yeah that is right, anything posted for the next week or so I'd say is mostly twitch reaction. Bugs will be a big exception, but balancing is hard after only playing a few rounds with one or two factions.

 

I just wanna point out too, just because they originally had this idea, doesn't mean we should continue on that path. If it turns out it's not working, then change it.

 

Lots of time to work it out though. Keep up the discussions!

Reply #6 Top

Yes, I have the utmost confidence that the final version of this will be sweeter than ever and alot of these little *gripes* will be gone with the wind.:grin:

Reply #7 Top

And if it doesnt...Codders FTW! We'll buff all those values in no time ;)

Reply #8 Top

Codders
End of quote

Am not a he-fish!

Reply #9 Top

lol... codders.

 

you like dem der fish eh by'e?

Reply #10 Top

Those previews are more in line with what I was expecting. I expected to be able to drop a Starbase at a planet and have it be really strong defensively. What we have right now isn't that, since you can fly around it and even a pretty small fleet can take out a maxed Starbase.

 

If a Starbase is now intended to be a bigger turret, that's one thing. But if the intention is still for what was discussed, they need buffs to turn into that.

Reply #11 Top

um those previews are pretty accurate to the game as is

what are you people on about?

You can deploy starbases anywhere, defenses all have a greater tactical significance owing to abilities, an upgraded starbase costs 3x (if not more) as much as a capital ship and such a starbase requires 'several capitals' (at least) to defeat...

the only thing i see that's misleading is that starbases would be able to 'level up' like capital ships. which is a mistaken impression at best, and correct only in the way that upgrades are like leveling. and the only thing that's flat out wrong is the bonuses for orbiting gas giants etc., but this is an incomplete beta - there's still time to add that.

Reply #12 Top

It would be helpful if the DEVS told us what was possible and whats not, this way we know whats pie in the sky and whats not.

Reply #13 Top

It really doesn't. Sure you can build it anywhere. But the enemy can simply ignore it and fly around it (or through it if it's in a star) with no real problem. It certainly doesn't take a big fleet to kill one. I built an Advent one, maxed out the weapons/defensive upgrades, and a fairly early fleet of 2 caps, a couple of carriers, and a few other ships was beating it in a fight until I brought my fleet in to help out.

Reply #14 Top

I was under the impression that starbase prices at the moment were more placeholders while they see how much people think they should cost than final values. Can't remember where I saw it though. 

Reply #15 Top

Weird, the quote button didn't work

 

"It really doesn't. Sure you can build it anywhere. But the enemy can simply ignore it and fly around it (or through it if it's in a star) with no real problem. It certainly doesn't take a big fleet to kill one. I built an Advent one, maxed out the weapons/defensive upgrades, and a fairly early fleet of 2 caps, a couple of carriers, and a few other ships was beating it in a fight until I brought my fleet in to help out."

I think this is how it should be, minus the range. As in, they shouldn't be able to fly around it as easily as now, but theys houldn't be able to take on more than medium size fleets by themselves.

 

If Starbases become fleet killers, how will we ever take over a planet? All someone needs to do is put a starbase on everyplanet and nothing can kill it!

 

They should be used to fend off small attacks completely. But anything larger than a capital ship or two with support fleet should be taking down starbases (just after a long period of time). These star bases should be used to stop people from sneaking in small fleets behind enemy lines and destroying a homeworld, and supporting a defending fleet. If we make them too powerful, the game is going to stalemate.

Some people have said, oh just use a novalith, well, novaliths only kill planets, if the starbase has the government ability, novaliths will do nothing!

Reply #16 Top

Quoting ShadowOTE, reply 14
I was under the impression that starbase prices at the moment were more placeholders while they see how much people think they should cost than final values. Can't remember where I saw it though. 
End of ShadowOTE's quote

you are correct in that...that's why we are having all of these discussions about what the final pricing structure should look like.

My whole point in all of this, is that the initial impression given to us all was that the SB's were gonna be massive and cost lots and be damn near impenetrable if set up correctly in a DEF manner...with other supporting DEF structures as well.

Reply #17 Top

Quoting Tkins, reply 15
I think this is how it should be, minus the range. As in, they shouldn't be able to fly around it as easily as now, but theys houldn't be able to take on more than medium size fleets by themselves.

If Starbases become fleet killers, how will we ever take over a planet? All someone needs to do is put a starbase on everyplanet and nothing can kill it!
End of Tkins's quote

That's why in the preview articles it stated that the SB's would be extremely expensive and hard to build...that would effectively limit the number of SB's a faction would have.  That was the whole point of not having a cap limit or go against you slot numbers, because you wouldn't be able to build more than 2 or 3 in a map.

As it is now, you can build a whole bunch of them with hardly no cost or resource knock from doing that.

Reply #18 Top

I mostly like the starbases as they are now.  The only changes I think need to be made are these:

1. Make the starbase build slower.  Like half or a quarter of the current speed.  They build up ridiculously fast, and the AI likes to plop them down on the edge of your systems a lot.  The thing can be 75% done before your fleet even gets to it if you're coming from the other side of the well.

2. The starbase definitely needs a much larger weapons range so that it can't be bypassed so easily.  I think it should be able to cover half or at least a third of the grav well.  Otherwise it is essentially left out of the fight.  I've tried to compensate for this through mine fields and such, but it still seems too easy to avoid the base.

3. Make the starbase reconfigurable.  Let us scuttle upgrades and replace them with other upgrades.  The role of a planet often changes over time, so the base should be able to be reconfigured from a fleet support type of role to more of a standalone defense (e.g. relying more on strikecraft).

I do have a couple questions that I'm wondering if anyone can answer.  First, what's the difference between level 1 and level 2 Safety Override Protocol (self destruct)?  Also, is there some way to see the weapon range for the starbase once it's built?  Why do heavy constructors auto-join fleets, but Ogrevs don't?

Oh, and for the love of god, please change it so that it doesn't say "structure complete" after building every single mine!

Reply #19 Top

Quoting Tkins, reply 15

I think this is how it should be, minus the range. As in, they shouldn't be able to fly around it as easily as now, but theys houldn't be able to take on more than medium size fleets by themselves.

 

If Starbases become fleet killers, how will we ever take over a planet? All someone needs to do is put a starbase on everyplanet and nothing can kill it!

 

They should be used to fend off small attacks completely. But anything larger than a capital ship or two with support fleet should be taking down starbases (just after a long period of time). These star bases should be used to stop people from sneaking in small fleets behind enemy lines and destroying a homeworld, and supporting a defending fleet. If we make them too powerful, the game is going to stalemate.

Some people have said, oh just use a novalith, well, novaliths only kill planets, if the starbase has the government ability, novaliths will do nothing!
End of Tkins's quote

 

Well, I wouldn't call two low level cap ships, a couple of carriers, and a few disciples a "medium sized fleet". :) The force in question certainly wasn't something that would be feared. I tend to agree that a Starbase shouldn't single handidly stop everything, but if a relatively small force can take one out, what's the point? If they were to remove the placeholder prices and put more expensive values in, I doubt I'd bother building them most of the time as they are right now.

 

I'm all for expensive, slow building bases. But when I put one up (and put other tactical structures in place to support it), it should take a serious commitment to bring it down.