[Request] Buff to Vasari Repair Structure - Edited 3-26-09

Entrenchment or vanilla? Since in Entrench they use a different armor type reducing damage taken from all sources by at least 25%, except the dedicated ships/starbase.

And, doesn't the Vasari support structure increase refire rates on a mess of enemy ships? Sort of a backwards way of doing it, and to be honest I can't remember the last time I built one to gauge its effectiveness.

I think the structure you're talking about is the Nano Weapons Jammer, which is pretty far up on the tech tree (level 5 i think) and is a seperate structure.

Yes, but howthe mentioned the Advent AM recharger structure which made the Vasari nano jammer fair game for analysis

honestly i agree with Howthe? on this issue. 15 hp/sec seems too low. should be 20 hp/sec. even if that means moving it from tier 1 research to tier 2 research, fine by me, the extra hull restore rate would make things alot more fair for vasari in defensive situations. 

Couldnt agree more, Vasari do get boned on the repair bays in Entrenchment, maybe cause thier SB is a floating death star... not sure, but the repair bays are just about useless, they cant even out repair a pirate raid never mind an enemy fleet attack.  The only good thing is they do stack with the carrier repair ability for a total of 45/s.

Entrenchment TEC are very tough with multiple repair bays covering each other...

Remember that TEC have upgrades to get the 40 per sec, so they don't get it straight out of the box...

Still, that research is a prereq to the Hoshiko, so it gets researched one way or the other It's also a rank 2 research, which in the grand scheme of things a fairly inconsequential amount of moneys.

I take it that no one cares that the Vasari hull repair lasts longer?

It may last longer but that does not help very much during battles when units are being fired at.

Nano-weapon jammers are actually really good, but they take up valuable tactical slots needed for hangars etc.

Basically you need nano-weapon jammers for repair bays to be useful, but that is still inferior to TEC and Advent.

In a nutshell: the Vasari's regeneration bay needs a boost.

Maybe the Enhanced Nanites upgrade should boost both the nano-weapon jammer and the repair station.

How ever the reason I can think ofve for thsi is that Vasary ships have superior base hull points (takes longer to chew their ships) superior armor in general (makes the chewing slower) and superior hull regeneration rates (witch makes the chewing slower) To me that is the rasson why the Davs made it so. Annatar can probably corrent me ont hat by checkign the game files and comparing the regeneration rates.

As fo advent their rapair bay comes out with 30 a second superior to TEC's 20. I always wondered why that was and can only come with, if advent is in hull he aint doing good. Witch beg me the question why do they even have a repair bay? Why not a sheild recharger? Again i can only assume it has to do with balance and to have somehtign that will defend againts phase missiles.

Here is the rankings for hull:  TEC has better.  Vasari is good.  Advent sucks.

So far, I heard that the Vasari repair bay has a longer range of effect, and a longer duration.  While pluses, neither helps when your cap is getting focus fired.  Try to focus fire a Kol with a repair bay and a Horoshiko going, and tell me how that goes for you.

Anyway, keep the discussion going.

After goign in game to get default hull points and armor these are the findings.

TEC has superior hull points mostly on their civiliant, supper ships including the carrier. And Vasary in those instances have equal armor excetp for overser compared to hoshiko.

But their main combat ships LF/Assailants have superior hull and armor points. The HC of the vasary has more hull but 1 armor point lest then the kodiac. But the Vasary HC still has more hp since the Kodiac's 1 armor more doesn'T reach teh lvl of extra hull ont he vasary HC.

The only cambat ship of vasary whos inferior is the flakfrig. It has 25 hull lest and 1 armor lest. So int hat base the TEC flakfrig is tougher then the vasary flakfrig.

Well if we are gonna talk about support structures and ships then we should add sub to advent which add 25+30=55

Tec gets 20 from hos and 40 from repair=60

Vas get 15 from repair 30 from skirantra and 250 from overseer=47(one overseer =250 hull\120sec cooldown-~2)/Add in frig hull ability-12 for skirmisher=59 and 18 for enforcers=65

Advent really only works for caps because the sub has to face the ship and by the time it does a frig is dead.Tec has best fleet surviveablity.I would say vas is 2nd with skirantra.This is based on repair ability.Anyway I dont see why they need a buff.Actually vas may come in 1st with its frigs own hull repair ability.Vas already has tons of advantages over the others. In fact as far as repair ability I think advent could use a buff. I would suggest makin subs more like hos to where they dont have to face every ship to cast.

Oh ya as far as I know overseers can stack so I dont see how you can complain about vas survivabilty.

I would agree with an increase in AM efficeincy for repair bay, but not buffing the HP/sec.  Yes this hurts most Vasari Caps, but other ships can repair themselves, and it stacks witht he repair bay!  This is why in the grand scheme of things the repair bay has low hp/sec.  Also the repair abiltiy of the carrier factors into this, it too wills tack witht he repair bay.  You up the repair per second on these bays and Vasari ships will become unkillable.

On a side note I believe that Overseer need a buff to targeting of repair ability, that way you can focous on using these guys, which are not really used much.  If they had 360 degree targeting for repair, people would use them and no one would complain about the repair bay.

You do this then do it to advents sub too.

Oh they need a different fix for those.  Subjugators are the hardest to use no doubt.  But luckily the Advent get by without them pretty well.

Are you sure the AM recharger can charge the AM of repair structures?  It says on the info card that it is usable on capships only, so that's all I ever tried to use it with.

I also wondered why Advent never got a shield recharger, but that's a different topic altogether.  Hopefully, for a future expansion.

No, it can't recharge the repair bays' antimatter. I tested it, just didn't want to resurrect the thread

I actually think that is a bad idea. Hoshis and Subjugators repair HP over time, but the Overseers give an instant HP and armor boost. HP also stacks with other Overseers. This basically means that your caps are immune to focus fire as long as you have antimatter. I've tanked 40+ Kodiaks focusing on my egg with overseers several times before.

Overseers have hands down the strongest healing ability of all the support ships... I think it's ok that it's a bit tougher to use than the others.

milo what you describe sounds like SP.  The fix to this would be to make AI smarter.  Also should there issue arise fromt his, the actual HP healed can be lowered.  Although as is, the fleet capacity for Overseer vs otehr support cruisers is meant ot discourage you making too many of em.  Also to note, a Marza with hoshiko + repair Bay can tank quite a few ships as well, with Dunnov near by it can probably tank more than 40.

Astax, I only play SP to try out mods when I have the time. The majority of my time I spend in multiplayer. I'm not sure which part of my post your comment about unit AI is directed at, but I'm trying to highlight the difference between the way the three support cruisers heal other units.

Dominas and Hoshis (repair structures too, for that matter), heal HP over time. The unit in question has to actually remain alive long enough to recieve the full benefit of the heal. The weakness with HP over time abilities is that if you can out DPS the heal (like all lategame fleets can), it pretty much makes the ability useless without some other combination (ie: subverters or demo bots both reduce enemy fleet DPS for a time). Overseers actually *can* keep a cap alive when it's being FF'd by a late game fleet, and they can do it anywhere, not just sitting inside your turtle shell of repair bays and turrets.

Hoshis and repair on even a high level Kol will still get smashed by a late-game fleet. Vasari with an egg + phase missiles is probably the most deadly, but a radiance with antimatter burn and illums will still tear it apart for advent, and TEC gets magnetize + designate target + a horde of HC. The point is that no other ship besides the Overseer can keep a cap alive late game.

To summarize my previous post, I don't think that Overseers need a buff just because they're hard to use. They're extremely useful ships, and they still do well enough if left without micro. Like the other unit types though, if you want the most out of them, you've gotta add that little personal touch.

Well then, if you are tanking 40 Kodiaks in MP then there is nothing wrong with it.  The fault lies with your opponent.  If you can't kill enemy cap ship in a minute in a big fight, you sohuldn't bother, you should hit stuff that will go down

I may be off here, and my experience on the battlefield is not the best, but if we look at the abilities themselves the abilityrepairplatformphase and the buff there are several areas that can be adjusted to even this out, or at least to test it to see if it unbalances things. 

First is range, which can be raised slightly, say 12000 to 15000.

Next is AM cost and cooldown, which seems low already, so reducing those would almost make it an "always on" ability.

On the buff side, the actual hull restore rate can be slightly increased, say from 15 to  25, and the finish condition to finish in 20 seconds can be slightly raised to 25.

I havent yet played a game with these numbers, but it seems that the balance that some players want can easily be achieved with a small mod that does what you want, while leaving the base values of the main game intact at their standard value. Anyway, that is just my opinion. 

I've changed these numbers for myself with a small mod, but im not an experienced Vasari player and may not see the difference that would be noticeable to a more experienced player.

Take care,

-Teal

p.s.   I LOVE all this analysis talk, i dont understand a lot of it, but it is neat to learn about how things fit, and how they playout, and well... its just real neat is all. Thank you for having these kinds of threads, they are interesting as heck.  

-Teal

I disagree.  They need "something" (buff, adjustment, whatever) because they are just too hard to use.  Forget the ability to insta-heal a bunch of HP at once.  That's irrelevant if the ship is so difficult to use that you really can't make use of its abilities.

I NEVER see overseers used in MP.  NEVER.  In fact, I don't see subverters used either.  Neither do I see subjugators.  The one thing I see in droves is TEC robo-cruisers.  Why?  Because they are a piece of cake to use.  No micro, just include them with your fleet.