he's not talking about multiplying the damage. he's trying to say that the overall effectivenesss of the fleet is greater than what would be suggested by an equivalent fleet logistics number of pure damage ships without support.

i say this is true to a point but you hit diminishing returns quickly. adding a few support ships will multiply the effectiveness by a noticeable amount due to increases in survivability (which is what Guardians and Hoshikos do) or whatever other support effect is provided.

i really do think that the benefit drops off quickly though. and it drops off VERY quickly if you're under-stocked on damage ships. it will take you too long to kill anything and the support ships will just run out of anti-matter and then be next to useless. 

You would have to micro the hoshikos really well since the AI hoshikos will all use thier ability at the same time on the same target if they are all in range. Zoom in on the combat and watch one time....or better yet fly a group of cobalts over a mine and watch how the hoshikos AI heals.

I commonly use this fleet:

2 kols

2 dunovs

30 kodiaks

15 cielos

15 hoshikos

It lasts a long time for me. I only play singleplayer though.

That's entirely not a bad fleet McWillis.  But it would take 1 hour to get a fleet that size, and by then you would most likely be dead in MP.

Yeah, Thats not what I use right away though, thats what I use mid game. I slowly work my way towards that by upgrading existing fleets.

Cobalt: 300-55-0 armor 2, dmg 10, supply 5,
Hoshiko: 350-30-50 armor 4, dmg 4, supply 4
Kodiack: 500-100-70 armor 5, dmg 18, supply 10

Combo 1
20x Cobalts: 6000-1100-0 supply 100, dmg 200
30 hoshikos: 10500-900-1500 supply 120, dmg 120
Total: 16500-2000-1500 supply 220, dmg 320

Combo 2
20x Cobalts: 6000-1100-0 supply 100, dmg 200
10x Kodiacs: 5000-1000-700 supply 100 dmg 180
10x Hoshiko: 3500-300-500 supply 40 dmg 40
Total: 14500-2400-1200 supply 240, dmg 420

Convert corst to credits were average is 1 metal/crytal is woth 5 credits you get.

34000 for hoshikos and cobalts.
32500 for the kodaics.

So a bit cheaper with kodiacs so let use the 1500 credit left to bing in one more kodiac 1350 credits.

20x Cobalts: 6000-1100-0 supply 100, dmg 200
11x Kodiacs: 5500-1100-770 supply 110 dmg 198
10x Hoshiko: 3500-300-500 supply 40 dmg 40
Total: 15000-2500-1270 supply 250, dmg 438

So DMG 320 vs 438 that is a 118 more dps with kodiacs then without. But while you researched HC i reaserched Demobots. NOw what i do is that i place 10 hoshikos on repair only and 20 hoshikos in demobots only. That way the AI spreads the effects around, takes soem time but from combat verification each hoshikos will at lear incapacitate 1 ship for each demobot up to 2 ships for each. But let just use 1 ship desable per demobot using hoshiko. In this case that is 20. 20 represent 66.66% of the enemys 30 combat ships. So i will nullyfy 66% of the dps. 438 - 66% = 148.92

So now the situation is 320dmg for combo 1 vs 148.92 dmg for combo 2. That is 171.08 more dmg in favor of combo 1. Note combo one get a higer dmg advantage after demo bot then combo 2 did before. 171.08 vs 118. Both side have 10 hoshikos repairign sot heir tankign power is equal. With means the side witht he most dps wins. Now add in that the demobot user causes an aditional flat 75 unmitigated dmg the target each time a ship is hit by demobots. So considering that he has unlimited AM every 3 second eahc of the 20 hoshiko do 75 dmg to the enemy fleet. 20 * 75 / 3 = wow 500 additional dmg tiping the scales at 720dmg vs 148.92 for a 571.08 advanatge. Now of ouse they dotn ahve infinte AM so lest consider that those 20 hoshikos will only fire demobots 3 time each durring that ingagement instead. 20 * 75 * 3 = 4500 over a 5 minute long battle (300 second) so 4500 / 300 = 15. Not much true but still additions it's self, so 335 vs 148.92 for a 186.08 advantage.

Now that into consideration that combo 1 needs lest fleet suppyl them combo 2 witch means combo 2 will need to upgrade his fleet size sonner thus nerf his econ and abilaty to replace lost ships sonner then the player with combo 1.

If the player of combo one is microing his hoshikos to completly shut down all of you combat ships witch si somethign i try to do and it possible to do the situation become even mroe stancked. Buttom line combo 1 wins quite easily. But ofcourse just how easily depends on the commander. IT it also possible for the combo 2 to win if used by a very skileld ocmmander vs a combo 1 without a skille commander.

Buttom line the Math doesn't lie.

Well, thats sorta true Ead. You also have to account for the type of damage your dishing out though.

Indeed, but in this case it doesn't matter I have a been in battles with simmiler odds and my combo 1 mix won hands down.

Math doesn't lie but people use math to come up with contrived examples that they think proves their point but really only proves a mathematical tautology. yes, we all know that 3>2, congratulations on one of the most creative proofs of that statement i've ever seen.

maybe we can talk about Sins of a Solar Empire next time. this is a game that i like to play on my PC that has all kinds of neat space-ships in it. 

if you'll forgive the sarcasm, what i'm trying to say is that contrived examples are just that. my experience teaches me differently and the example given is a situation that ive never personally been in anyway. how well does a 30 hoshiko fleet perform vs. 8 carriers, supported by some of their own Hoshi's and LRMs (to protect them from Cobalts). compare that to how well the fleet with the Kodiaks performs in the same situation. thats much more realistic. lets try to keep the discussion centered around things that might actually happen in a game. realistic fleet composition examples and scenarios with realistic expectations such as combat taking place over time and anti-matter not being unlimited. 

Speaking of repair ships, what are efficient ratios to use them in frigate/cruiser fleets? I'm never sure about how many Hoshikos and the like to put between the "damage makers".

If your enemy tends to micro a lot and focus single ships lots of Hoshikos obviously won't do you any good, except for the Demo Bots. However, since most opponents are lazy and they are a good addition anyway as soon as you got the bots, I always keep a dozen of them in mid-sized fleets. Keeps them healthy

Transitive the math isn't just a contrived example. Also i have face simmiler situations ingame. Ofcourse additional units were present in the battle such as carriers and lrms. How ever for the calculations of this situation it account that both sides have more or lest the same mix of unit. And I have even face a situation almost identical to this one were we both had 10 carriers as support but he had 15-20 lrms while I had 10 gardas. The result was a crushing victory in my favor for I the fact that they other units just weren'T enought to retip the scales. Also durign such battle we were both reinforcing. I can also tell you that even thou he was losing ships faster then me, but he could afford it since his econ was stronger then mine. How ever mine was more free to purchase upgrades his was not.

In addition 10 hoshikos commign into a battle were the enemy has 20 cobalts the counter to hoshikos they wont last long. Espicialy if their is only 10 of them. By the time iI kill all 10 of his hoshikos he had only managed to kill a few of mine since he was being demobotted. I could replace my loses faster or reassing my remainign hoshikos. He had to constantly rebuild them. So the spam of hoshikos also made sure I had spares with further increased my chances of survival supremamy as well as my indurance in combat. Cobalts are also reaplaced much faster then just about anithign else. Meaning unlest he keeps focusing on my hoshikos he absolutely has no chance to win. But event hen victory isnt garantied since i will be rebuilding the hoshikos and replacign just that. While he has to replace hoshikos and all teh other combat ships he is now losing because his original hoshikos are dead and not protecting his fleet. The effect componds drasticaly in way and in equations I can't even beging to imagine how they should be written and annalyzed.

All i can tell you is iff you dont belive me fine. Try it for your self. I can tell you that last night i used a simmiler combo to repel 2 vasary assailant+carrier rushes.

Battle 1:

1x marza
4x hoshiko (with 2 loses that get replaced)
10x Cobalt (with factories replacing loses and build the group slowly to 20)
4x Carrier

VS

1x Egg
15x Assailants (with more beign built replaced)
7-8 Skirmishers
3x carriers

Result by carefuly mananging my fleet my cobalts overpowered his assailant battle ended with the vasary player beign forced to run and losing his egg int he next grav well.

Battle 2:

1x marza
10x hoshiko (with 2 loses that get replaced)
20x Cobalt (with 3 loses replaced)
8x Carrier

VS

1x Egg
20x Assailants (with more beign built replaced)
10x Skirmishers
8x carriers

Results My cobalt wiped out his carrier fleet witch he was running preventing his assailant from killign my cobalt sicne they were chasing his carriers. When he was done to 3 carriers he had build a few more assaialnt 25 but not much sicne i keep killignt hem with my own fighters. I turned my cobalts on them with the fighters and quickly disposed of them. HE ran with his egg all hsi skirmishers and a hand full of assailant to one fo his planets he was tring to fortify. Didn't help help him thou i just forge ahead and crused his fleet in the shadow of his repair bays. I did use missile barage but only toward teh end were only 10 or so of his frigates were still currently active in the grav well. The battle was already won for me and lost for him.

nothing like killing capships on the first SC pass

EadTaes,

the examples given in your more recent post are much better ones. thanks for elaborating.

what you have admitted though is very much something i stated earlier about a Hoshiko heavy fleet. its basically a wall. its very hard to get through it defensively but it takes so long to kill things that i find it lacks utility outside of a situation where your only goal is to prevent the enemy from breaking through your defensive line.

in an offensive situation where you cannot replace lost ships so quickly the lengthy fight works against you. your support ships run out of anti-matter and enemy ships will go to high shield mitigation percentage. you really need heavier firepower like massed carriers or heavy cruisers to succesfully attack someone. the innate durability of carriers and heavies is a big advantage on offense as well since it gives you so much extra time for your reinforcements to arrive.

as a final note, i've noticed that Hoshis perform extraordinarily badly against enemy light frigates that have researched their anti-matter disrupting ability (Sabotage Reactor, Interference, or Drain Antimatter). the ships are just very easy to counter, even when they're used on defense.

Indeed they are ways with the LF abilaties to give them a hard time. How ever the lack of firepower is not a very big issue as with demobots you nulifyt he enemies own firepower allowing you gain the upper hand early and maintain that lead if you play it right. Your wall as you call it is extremly hard to overcome. If the enemy has so much firepower that the battle drags on then you indeed need to pull back and increase yoru own combat power witch will compond at a greater speed then your enemy since your hoshikos will multiply the force of your new combat ships while he'll just be adding. Or (i'll give you flat out the use or armistice you couldn't figure out) use yoru lvl 6 akkan if you ahve one to use armistice were durring the 60seconds of seace fire you replenish you AM ammounts. Meanignt hat when armistice ends you have regain the tactical advantage that you had and need to win.

How ever i will not claim that it is unbeatable. That depends on the skills of each commander.

From personal experience (guys in my dorm) my Hoshis get eaten alive by my friends' fleet, especially Advent.  With Disciples draining antimatter, Illums DPSing and Drone Hosts bombing the crap out of me, my poor Hoshis are too busy trying to heal themselves to repair the rest of my fleet.  TEC were the first civ I played and became my main civ, but spamming Hoshis does not win games.  IMO spamming anything won't win unless you are facing an inexperiend opponent.

I, for one, love TEC.  It's fun to have twice your ally's income when they have twice your number of planets, even without double stacking trade ports.  I like seeing the end of game graphs where my economy defines the chart scale.  Our stuff dies, but it hardly matters in the grand scheme of things.  We'll have it doubly rebuilt and attacking before you leave the grav well, even while researching upgrades for it.  True, TEC has its faults, but the civ plays the game the way I like it.  <3 TEC.

Then you enemy doesn't know how to get an economy running properly.

Turn off healing autocast for about 2/3 (situation dependant) of your hoshis. Demolition bots is usually way more important, and if your ships are just healing each other, you're better off disabling the illums. This is, of course, assuming you don't have time to micro them.

TEC is being taken alot at the moment,  mainly for "marza-ability,hoshiko-repair,starbase-ability", but also becasue its the standard race

Vasari  also choosen regulary are picked becuase of their starbase, evacuator, and sometimes even their Ruiner Mine-layers, i sometimes pick them on huge maps becuase vasari are mobility experts

Advent being picked the most, becuase of the current carrier problem and the best carriers/squadrons are builable by the advent

the biggest reason i play vasari when i do are because of their scouts. If i am in the pocket in a huge single game then i go eco get some trade up and COMPLETLEY SPAM scouts to all neutrals one game one team neglected to do that and by the time they started sending scouts to neutrals i had about 15 scouts on each one. For me i hate advent, so what if they have carriers? Get carriers to and give them a healthy dose of flak frig spam and they'll be sent back crying, know i know that most advent players are actually pretty good but as soon as i see one leaning heavily on the carriers i pull the advantage they have out.

IM TEC man 4ever!    

GG every1, this is for sure the most supportive online gaming community.  btw im out. 

TORO ROSSO

in my last game, there was 5 vasari players, and one random. not a lot of tec, that. well, the random guy became tec so i guess that counts

I don't think there's actual TEC hate on multiplayer, i just think that the people who chose random are forced, by some pre-set equation to become a "minority" team (a.k.a. Vasari or Advent) so the TEC players have a considerable challenge, given their smaller number.

As for fleets, I'll have to try out mass Hoshiko support, normally I have a Hoshiko for every Percheron, but I guess time to change... in the mid-late game, when my fleet tops off at 2500, I normally have 30-40 Hoshikos, split between two large fleets.  It works, but I'm not unstoppable(carrier spamming by any enemy wipes me out).

Koda0

I play entrenchment a lot and maybe it's there but I see a LOT of vasari players there now....

As for carrier spam. Flak is much better these days. and cobolts are good against carriers........

My frigates eat your hoshikos by virtue of am fuckery.....

oh wait..... no they do.