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N3rull
N3rull
Join Date 10/2008
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[BUG] Vasari Starbase bugs

March 23, 2009 7:24:52 AM from Sins of a Solar Empire ForumsSins of a Solar Empire Forums

> Bug 1. edit - never existed. ;s

> Bug 2. (Not sure if it's a bug, maybe an exaggeration in the description or all as intended... still, it doesn't feel right, so I mention it)

The offensive upgrade level 2 adds phase missile turrets, which are described as "a great advantage of long range against any attacker" (or sth like that). Well, while having a massive phase missile battery is always cool and totally worth an upgrade (phase missiles = shield mitigation = best weapon ever; plus you get a TON of them), the description is misleading. The Phase missile batteries' range is only ~15% better than that of the standard issue pulse cannons.

Either buff the range a bit (no need really, it'd be imba in my opinion), or make the tooltip sound less misleading (e.g. "Adds phase missile turrets for a slight increase to combat range and a massive one to firepower".

> Bug 2a. (this one IS a bug ) edited.

By the way phase missile turrets, a Vasari Starbase, even without Offensive level2 upgrade (phase missile turrets; in production queue or not) thinks it can attack at the phase missile range.

This leads to the starbase halting too far away from the target and incapable of attacking, because it wants to shoot the phase missiles but doesn't have them  .
This is a minor bug, you can always order the starbase forward and you're set. The phase missile range is so slightly better than the starbase needs to move for only ~3 seconds to be able to start shooting.
Still, the bug IS there and deserves a kick in the ass.

> Bug 3. (99% confimed to be only a graphics issue or an intentional graphics memory savior; i'll mention it anyway )

A Vasari Starbase seems to shoot less as the number of targets increases.

When the starbase shoots at a single enemy, it seems to fire a dozen pulse shots every salvo, from every "turret".
When it is surrounded by multiple enemies, the number of shots drops to 2-3 per salvo and the salvos seem to occur with increased intervals.

Again, it may not even be a real bug, since my level-1-offensive starbase handled a ~20 ship HC-LRM-LF-carrier battlegroup of an AI quite swiftly.
There was also no weapon jammer structure around.

 

 

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N3rull
Sole Soul
Join Date 12/2007
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Reply #1 March 23, 2009 8:01:26 AM
from Sins of a Solar Empire ForumsSins of a Solar Empire Forums

After about half a minute later, the enemy-territory starbase was 40% completed, while my home territory starbase was 60% completed.

I'm not sure if this made it in, but I do remember discussion about the idea that starbases would take longer to build in hostile gravity wells.

Did you try to compare two in friendly wells versus two in hostile wells?

Moreover, it also carries over to upgrades being slowed down!

I'll check this at my first opportunity, which likely won't be today.  Since you're making that claim and don't specify that you've checked it as well, I would suggest you do that first.

A Vasari Starbase seems to shoot less as the number of targets increases.

My understanding is that this is based on the banks change to weapons.  The SB can concentrate its full firepower on x number of units (per weapon); beyond x number of units it does max * x / total number of targets.

Someone else will probably clarify, but I'm not too far wrong.  I apologize for not being more clear, but I haven't had an opportunity to sit down and play Entrenchment since it got out of beta.

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N3rull
Annatar11
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Reply #2 March 23, 2009 8:13:15 AM
from Sins of a Solar Empire ForumsSins of a Solar Empire Forums

Starbases take longer to build in hostile wells. The research tech reduces the penalty. It's still slower than home, but faster than it would've been without research.

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N3rull
Haree78
Join Date 02/2008
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Reply #3 March 23, 2009 8:43:45 AM
from Sins of a Solar Empire ForumsSins of a Solar Empire Forums

Quoting ,
quoting post
> Bug 2a. (this one IS a bug )

By the way phase missile turrets, a Starbase which has a queued Offensive level2 upgrade (phase missile turrets) thinks it can already attack at the phase missile range.

This leads to the starbase halting too far away from the target and incapable of attacking, because it wants too shoot the phase missiles but doesn't have them yet .
This is a minor bug, you can always order the starbase forward and you're set. The phase missile range is so slightly better than the starbase needs to move for only ~3 seconds to be able to start shooting.
Still, the bug IS there and deserves a kick in the ass.

> Bug 3. (most likely a graphical bug or an intentional graphics memory savior; i'll mention it anyway )

A Vasari Starbase seems to shoot less as the number of targets increases.

When the starbase shoots at a single enemy, it seems to fire a dozen pulse shots every salvo, from every "turret".
When it is surrounded by multiple enemies, the number of shots drops to 2-3 per salvo and the salvos seem to occur with increased intervals.

Again, it may not even be a real bug, since my level-1-offensive starbase handled a ~20 ship HC-LRM-LF-carrier battlegroup of an AI quite swiftly.
There was also no weapon jammer structure around.

2a. Aha!  I wondered what the hell my star base was doing last night staring at the TEC anti module thingies and not moving, had to manually move it.

3. This may be related to a bug that has been around for a long time (and seems to be more frequent every time I see 'memory optimisations' in the patch notes ) that means that as a game goes on more and more special effects seem to dissapear.  I used to think it would happen if I made massive 10 player games but last night it occured on a 4 player free for all and actually not that long in to the game.  My fleet is there next to another fleet and I can hear the pew pew but all I see is the occassional ship dissapear not explode, battles look like total shit.

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N3rull
N3rull
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Reply #4 March 23, 2009 8:46:40 AM
from Sins of a Solar Empire ForumsSins of a Solar Empire Forums

[/quote]

I'm not sure if this made it in, but I do remember discussion about the idea that starbases would take longer to build in hostile gravity wells.
I decided to run an extra test with a handwatch and here are the results:

1. Starbase in my territory, no assault deployment upgrade : builds at standard rate ~1%/1 sec.
2. Starbase in my territory, with assault deployment upgrade completed : builds at standard rate ~1%/1 sec.
3. Starbase in enemy territory, no assault deployment upgrade : builds ~33% slower (speed multiplied by 1/[1+50%] )
4. Starbase in enemy territory, with assault deployment upgrade completed : builds ~33% slower (speed multiplied by ~1/[1+50%] )
And I checked the above speed rates carrie to upgrading SBs as well in situation 1, 2, 4. didn't check upgrading without assault deployment done.

So, in the light of these new results, the Assault Deployment bug is more simple than I previously thought - It does not work at all. At least, not where it should.

 

Did you try to compare two in friendly wells versus two in hostile wells?
Err what? I compared two, why the hell should I compare four? Specify.

Since you're making that claim and don't specify that you've checked it as well, I would suggest you do that first.
Yes, I checked it. Where base builds more slowly, upgrades are completed more slowly as well. Tested as described above.

My understanding is that this is based on the banks change to weapons.  The SB can concentrate its full firepower on x number of units (per weapon); beyond x number of units it does max * x / total number of targets.

Someone else will probably clarify, but I'm not too far wrong.  I apologize for not being more clear, but I haven't had an opportunity to sit down and play Entrenchment since it got out of beta.
So.... which of the two you're saying: starbase will fire at at most x targets OR starbase will fire on all targets with reduced effect as more targets are brought to bear?

Max X targets - it seems to be like this. However, the graphics of starbase shooting simply get rarer and rarer (as if all the gunners suddenly decided to shoot less). I didn't notice a damage reduction, though I couldn't run a test on this one (you can't exactly tell an AI player to bring precisely X units so you can test the starbase damage).
PS. That's why I continuously wrote "may" and "seems" in this particular report.

Fire at all, reduced damage when more than max - this would totally, absolutely suck, God save the starbases. Why? the no.1 anti-starbase tactic would be 126928213444325425 scout frigates, cause the damage per frigate would quickly be reduced to tickles. I strongly believe nobody in his right mind would code it like that.

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N3rull
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Reply #5 March 23, 2009 9:57:16 AM
from Sins of a Solar Empire ForumsSins of a Solar Empire Forums

Err what? I compared two, why the hell should I compare four? Specify.

I decided to run an extra test with a handwatch and here are the results:

That's exactly what I asked you to do, thank you.

So, in the light of these new results, the Assault Deployment bug is more simple than I previously thought - It does not work at all. At least, not where it should.

Just to make sure we're on the same page here, this is 1.02, right?  I don't doubt that the bug exists if you say it does; I just remember it working correctly previously and so either someone broke it or (more likely) my memory is flawed.

So.... which of the two you're saying: starbase will fire at at most x targets OR starbase will fire on all targets with reduced effect as more targets are brought to bear?

I understood it to be the second...but I think there may have been a maximum targets as well as a maximum bank "capacity", which would tend to render your scout spam idea irrelevant.  Again, I haven't had that much time to mess around with Entrenchment since it got out of beta and I simply wanted to point that out as a possible cause; I was sort of expecting Annatar to address that portion as well.

It is also entirely possible that what you are seeing is just a graphics glitch, as specified by Haree78.

-

And this is what happens when my power goes out while I'm typing a post: I completely forget about it when it comes back on.

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N3rull
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Reply #6 March 23, 2009 10:36:07 AM
from Sins of a Solar Empire ForumsSins of a Solar Empire Forums

That's exactly what I asked you to do, thank you.
Ow... ok. 

Just to make sure we're on the same page here, this is 1.02, right?
1.02, yes. I have had no contact with previous versions or the beta, cause it was just yesterday that I bought the expansion (and swore the sh1t out of myself for an hour, trying to make impulse download it )
I understood it to be the second...but I think there may have been a maximum targets as well as a maximum bank "capacity", which would tend to render your scout spam idea irrelevant.
I took a few more glances at my starbase raping enemy fleets and I noticed only a few (like, 5? 7?) ships are being attacked simultaneously, while others seems to stay undamaged. Also, those damaged ones don't seem to lose hit points drastically slower than before. So I Guess that it's just the standard way - the starbase has 5(7? etc.) weapon turrets that just shoot at different targets or something like that.

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N3rull
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Reply #7 March 23, 2009 6:54:16 PM
from Sins of a Solar Empire ForumsSins of a Solar Empire Forums

I played another game and this time a no-assault-deployment-upgrade starbase was being built even slower than I've seen before.
I will sit some more on it. Maybe my results were an unlucky set of planet characteristics that affect structure build speed or something.

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N3rull
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Reply #8 March 24, 2009 4:40:15 PM
from Sins of a Solar Empire ForumsSins of a Solar Empire Forums

I edited the first post to match my current (enhanced) knowledge of the issues.

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