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TheRezonator
TheRezonator
Join Date 12/2008
+27

How does the Optimum Trade Route work?

Bugged? Broken? Any Ideas?

April 28, 2009 1:24:15 AM from Stardock ForumsStardock Forums

So, i was playing a game as TEC, research trade links, and set up a trade route. i was playing the map Triumvirate wthout an ally. so i had one of the starting systems all to myself. so i expanded and set up trade ports on every planet and asteroid. after a while i used starbases to expand the route to the two plasma storms in the system. when i moused over the credit income display i saw optimum trade route ran from one plasma storm, out to one of the starting terran worlds, around to a gas giant in the system (with a starbase) back out to my home world (Starting terran world) and around to the other plasma storm. the only thing stopping it from being a perfect loop was the sun (which i hadnt upgraded with trade ports yet)

when i did upgrade it, the optimum trade route was then changed. it started at the plasma storm as usual, but it stopped at one of the terran planets missing an asteroid and one of the plasma storms... meaning it was actually LESS effecient than before i upgraded the sun

in addition to this, i was of the understanding that when you have trade agreements with an ally, their planets are considered in optimum trade routes, but i have never seen this happen.

does anyone have any ideas?

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TheRezonator
Tamren
Join Date 03/2008
+34
Reply #1 April 28, 2009 2:47:37 AM
from Sins of a Solar Empire ForumsSins of a Solar Empire Forums

Yes it is rather confusing. The last time I had a trade alliance set up my trade ships would move into allied territory, but they were never factored in when calculating the longest route.

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TheRezonator
DeadlyShoe
Join Date 03/2006
+8
Reply #2 April 28, 2009 2:56:59 AM
from Sins of a Solar Empire ForumsSins of a Solar Empire Forums

Trade's all sorts of messy, unfortunately.

And yeah, if you short-circuit an 'inconveniently long' route, you'll lose route length and length is all that matters. 

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TheRezonator
Annatar11
Join Date 11/2006
+527
Reply #3 April 28, 2009 8:16:10 AM
from Sins of a Solar Empire ForumsSins of a Solar Empire Forums

Allies don't count towards the longest route.

I'm not familiar with the map you played, but the trade route is actually the "longest shortest". It's going to choose the shortest route between to planets. So if there were 2 ways to get from A to B, one is 5 jumps and one is 7, it's going to pick the 5. If you want the 7, you have to make sure the 5 path doesn't exist.

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TheRezonator
TheRezonator
Join Date 12/2008
+27
Reply #4 April 28, 2009 11:09:30 AM
from Stardock ForumsStardock Forums

Quoting Annatar11,
reply 3
Allies don't count towards the longest route.

I'm not familiar with the map you played, but the trade route is actually the "longest shortest". It's going to choose the shortest route between to planets. So if there were 2 ways to get from A to B, one is 5 jumps and one is 7, it's going to pick the 5. If you want the 7, you have to make sure the 5 path doesn't exist.

aside from that being kinda silly, its weird because the map i played (its one of the standard ones that comes with the game, in medium size scenarios i believe, near the bottom) i had almost a circle of trade lanes, just missing one more jump to make it a loop. like i said, only the star was the missing link. when i upgraded the star, the route actually got SHORTER! it didnt change planets, just decided keep one starting point (plasma storm, and to cut out 2 other trade ports (asteroid and other plasma storm). it didnt even consider the sun as a part of the route, considering it had 4 fully upgraded (i.e. both levels of starbase trade ports upgraded) starbases. which at that stage were generating more credit income than all of my planets put together

i dont know, if this is the way things are at the moment, does anyone think a fix is in order? perhaps a way to manually... at least suggest... the optimum route?

EDIT: Annatar, you said that allies trade ports dont count... im sorry but im sure i read somewhere that they do, either in game or in the manual, ill check and get back to you. yes, in reality they may not actually count, but the game says it should, so either change that tooltip or make it count, no?

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TheRezonator
Vespucci
Join Date 01/2009
+1
Reply #5 April 28, 2009 11:12:20 AM
from Sins of a Solar Empire ForumsSins of a Solar Empire Forums

It's not a bug.  It's a technical limitation in the AI used for determining the longest chain.

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TheRezonator
TheRezonator
Join Date 12/2008
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Reply #6 April 28, 2009 11:18:09 AM
from Stardock ForumsStardock Forums

Quoting Vespucci,
reply 5
It's not a bug.  It's a technical limitation in the AI used for determining the longest chain.

fair enough, but is it (for lack of a better word) fair? desirable?

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TheRezonator
Vespucci
Join Date 01/2009
+1
Reply #7 April 28, 2009 12:32:54 PM
from Sins of a Solar Empire ForumsSins of a Solar Empire Forums

I think it's the best that can be done mathematically on desktop hardware for a real time game.

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TheRezonator
JSW_Ballz
Join Date 03/2008
+7
Reply #8 April 28, 2009 1:32:36 PM
from Sins of a Solar Empire ForumsSins of a Solar Empire Forums

The math is correct, fair, and working as the devs intended.  However, it is somewhat non-intuitive at first.  The best (short) explanation I've found is by SageWon:

Quoting SageWon,
reply 4

"is is there ever a situation where destroying a trade port will actually be worth more to your income than keeping it there?"
Yeah Garv, here is nice (extreme) illustrated example of just that.

But remember, in Entrenchment, trade routes don't automatically jump over UCGWs, like they do in vanilla Sins.  You have to build a starbase with the trade upgrade there, for the route to extend thru them. (UCGW=UnColonizeable Gravity Wells)

That SoaSE wiki site also has a good explanation of vanilla Sins trade.

The illustration on the wiki was screwed up a bit.  I have fixed the image reference, so the pictures should make sense with the text now.

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TheRezonator
TheRezonator
Join Date 12/2008
+27
Reply #9 April 28, 2009 1:52:09 PM
from Stardock ForumsStardock Forums

Quoting JSW_Ballz,
reply 8
The math is correct, fair, and working as the devs intended.  However, it is somewhat non-intuitive at first.  The best (short) explanation I've found is by SageWon:




Quoting SageWon,
reply 4

"is is there ever a situation where destroying a trade port will actually be worth more to your income than keeping it there?"
Yeah Garv, here is nice (extreme) illustrated example of just that.

But remember, in Entrenchment, trade routes don't automatically jump over UCGWs, like they do in vanilla Sins.  You have to build a starbase with the trade upgrade there, for the route to extend thru them. (UCGW=UnColonizeable Gravity Wells)

That SoaSE wiki site also has a good explanation of vanilla Sins trade.


The illustration on the wiki was screwed up a bit.  I have fixed the image reference, so the pictures should make sense with the text now.

fair enough... so you're saying i have to strategically place my trade ports? okay, but there are times where the optimum trade route line will stop for no reason, there will be another gravity well or two it could easily expnd to, but will not, and i cant figure out why?

(and yes, i figured Starbases with trade post upgrade would be needed, and rest assured all UCGW's had starbases in them)

on the other hand, i plaed a game on a circular, symmetrical map, and as i expanded, the OTR (Optimum Trade Route) continuously expanded and ran along my front lines, (considering i was expanding to my left and not forwards) as, eventually, i had taken over half the system and so logically the longest route ran across the system... however, i also find that the OTR likes straight lines, and wont take a turn, rather, will prefer to keep heading in one direction if its possible...

 

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TheRezonator
Nuttygamer
Join Date 12/2008
+34
Reply #10 May 1, 2009 3:29:53 AM
from Sins of a Solar Empire ForumsSins of a Solar Empire Forums

Meh, I don't really bother with the optimum trade route, I just let the computer decide how to make the route longest, I just build trade port and let the computer do it thing in calculating, but it is annoying sometimes, the trade route would either take you through unknown terroitory or enemy terriortory

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TheRezonator
ReiverTA
Join Date 04/2009
0
Reply #11 May 1, 2009 10:56:10 AM
from Sins of a Solar Empire ForumsSins of a Solar Empire Forums

Ah, but does the computer find the longest route? Or does it in fact go for the shortest that crosses space stations?

I'd kind of prefer it if the trade network was more reliant on the size of the network than the specific length involved. I dunno, it's a good idea, but a little flawed at the moment.

Hopefully the Diplomacy expansion includes an improved trade mechanic too.

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