Balance Patch: Non-capital ship Abilities

Seleuceia

Join Date 01/2008

+240

Here is a downloadable file with the above changes...

I tested this on Point blank against a Vicious Advent AI...

Since SC entering the AoE after the ability is cast are no longer affected, it requires much better micromanagement...I decided to increase the target count that trips the autocast from 5 to 15...

The AI player had plenty of SC...one potential problem is that I'm not sure if the ability will apply itself only to SC not already affected...there were some times were it seemed that the 2nd hangar that fired this ability seemed to not do much (as if it was affected SC already in phase space)...I'm not certain on this...

The antimatter regen values seem to be much better...I don't see any reason for a Vasari player now to avoid building SC on their hangars...

With a target cap this ability may become too weak...it might be necessary to reduce the cooldown on this ability...not only did it lose infinite target capabilities, but it lost its periodic action which means SC can enter the AoE after the ability was cast...

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Here is a downloadable file with the above changes...

As in, just the phasic traps change, or some of the others discussed?

This discussion has been bobbing around a bit, can I get an idea of the actual scope we're looking at right now?

I decided to increase the target count that trips the autocast from 5 to 15...

Go for 30, I think. Probably a waste on fewer than 4 squads anyways...

there were some times were it seemed that the 2nd hangar that fired this ability seemed to not do much (as if it was affected SC already in phase space)...I'm not certain on this...

This could be a problem... I think this could be the case.

With a target cap this ability may become too weak...it might be necessary to reduce the cooldown on this ability...

Fine by me; I was already considering tinkering with the other attributes of this ability earlier, and after you're test I'm pretty confident of that.

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Seleuceia

Join Date 01/2008

+240

As in, just the phasic traps change, or some of the others discussed?

Phasic trap is now an instant action with a max target count of 50...

In addition, TEC/Vasari Hangar antimatter regen has been increased from .25 to.45 and Advent Hangar antimatter regen increased from .35 to .65...

This could be a problem... I think this could be the case.

I'm going to see if there is some constaint that can be used to prevent this but I'm not hopeful...

If this becomes a major problem there is the option of making the trigger on chance...for example, when the ability is cast there could be an 80% for each individual SC to be disabled...it would scale well and not disable all SC as well as solve this problem but I'm thinking this should be a last resort...

So, the autocast setting could be set to 30...but, the only issue with this is that the AI won't use it until the limit hits 30...anything less than 30 and the AI will never use it...granted it's a small issue but worth noting...

The cooldown is currently 75...what value to pick is highly dependent on whether the issue of redundancy is fixed (where SC already affected count towards the target cap)...

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I'm going to see if there is some constaint that can be used to prevent this but I'm not hopeful...

See if you can mask "phased out" units from the target list. Otherwise, I think we'll have to find another way around this one.

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Seleuceia

Join Date 01/2008

+240

Well, I think I did find away around it...and I don't think it will matter...

There is a entity bool modifier ActivelyBeingConstructed...and there just happens to be a constraint NotActivelyBeingConstructed...

So, if we need a work around, I think we got one...

In the game I was testing this, I had 5 Hangar bays (so a potential to freeze 250 SC) and an Advent fleet with over 350 SC attacked me...I tested it with the work around and without...in both cases, it seemed to freeze about the same number of SC...

I jumped the max target count to 200...if this ability works properly and doesn't count already phased targets towards its target count, then every single SC should have been disabled...and if the ability doesn't work properly, it should be obvious...whether I had the work around or not, it appeared that all SC except those just freshly built (and therefore out of range) were disabled...

So, I don't think a work around will be necessary...but, confirmation from someone else would be appreciated...

So anyway, 5 of these hangars disabled 250 or so out of 350 or so SC (21 Advent bomber squadrons, 23 Advent fighter squadrons)...the enemy had some SC still to spare but not much...and they quickly destroyed a lot of the structures with the rest of their fleet...nevertheless, it required some good timing and actual micro...that alone makes this ability much less overpowered since the previous version didn't even require work as it was a periodic action...

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Seleuceia

Join Date 01/2008

+240

Alright...so far we have faster AM regen on hangars and Phasic trap has a max target count of 50...may not be perfect but it's a good start...so, as for other abilities...

For starters, I think the domina's abilities need some help...

Suppression has a cooldown of 30s and an AM cost of 75...perseverance is 150 AM and a cooldown of 60s....I think the cooldowns should be reduced to 10s and 20s while the AM costs are reduced to something like 50 and 100...that way, the penalty for being interrupted (since they are channeling abilities) is not as great...

Another ability that needs work is embolden...this ability lasts 60s and restores 2.5 shields/s and reduces weapon cooldown by 10%...the antimatter cost and cooldown time are low (50 and 2s) so those are fine...over 60s that is 150 shields...shield regeneration on the progenitor is 300/400/500 over 8s and affects infinite targets while overseers can continually give instant health at 200 per use...I think it wouldn't be unreasonable to at least double the shield restore rate on embolden (if not more)...

Also the weapon cooldown of only 10% is rather lacking...shield disrupt on the subverter reduces the target's shield mitigation by 10% as well as make it more vulnerable to PMs...if that target has 60% or so shield mitigation, a reduction of 10% would increase damage by 25%...I don't think it is unreasonable to increase the weapon cooldown reduction of embolden to 25%...

Also, I think there is a general consensus that jump degradation needs to be passive....

So, to sum up my suggestions:

Embolden

-Shield restore increased from 2.5s (for 60s) to 5s (for 60s)...

-Weapon cooldown reduction increased from 10% to 25%...

Domina subjugator

-Suppression's cooldown decreased from 30s to 10s and AM cost decreased from 75 to 50...

-Perseverance's cooldown decreased from 60s to 20s and AM cost decreased from 150 to 100...

Jump Degradation

-Now a passive ability

Feedback appreciated...

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As you know.. jumping to big buffs makes me a bit nervous. (Cutting the Domina's cooldowns by 2/3 and AM costs by 1/3 seems like a big change).. On the other hand, I like those changes because they soften the punitive edge of the Domina's reliance on channeling.. So maybe they're about right.

As for Embolden.. I'm not sure about the 25% cooldown (and therefore DPS?) buff. The ability costs only 50 AM and has a very low cooldown and long duration. With 350 AM, each Cielo could buff seven friendly ships with a decent shield regen and DPS buff for the first 60s of a battle. A few Cielos could add a ton of extra DPS to a small fleet of Kodiaks.. And with 300 shield regen for 50 AM, the healing power of this ability is in some ways equal to the Hoshiko's.. (But, assuming it can't stack, it's obviously not as useful as Repair Drones for saving a ship under heavy attack).

So.. maybe it's fine. Part of me thinks it might be better to focus Embolden as either mostly offensive (leave it with a weak regen but buff the DPS), or mostly defensive (keep the shield regen, but leave the weapon cooldown as an ancillary buff). OTOH, the Cielo is higher tier, requires more supply, and lacks some of the immediacy of the Hoshiko's repairs.. so maybe it works out fine for it to be competitive as both a healer and a major DPS boost.

After comparing the repair/defensive power of all of the utility ships, I'm also wondering if a buffed Domina needs to take up more supply. Your suggested Perseverance would be 1000hp regen over 40 seconds for only 100 antimatter. That's a much better deal than the costs for repair drones or Reactive Nanite Armor.. but it's probably fair given the issues with channeling a heal for 40 seconds in battle.. Still, the power of those abilities makes me wonder if the Domina shouldn't be a 5 supply or 6 supply ship. What do you think?

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Seleuceia

Join Date 01/2008

+240

Well, my experience with the domina is that a group of 10 or so is good for helping to keep high priority targets alive (caps and SBs)...the channeling isn't an issue if you are only using them on a few targets, but then the domina's aren't very good with frigates...hoskikos can spread their repairs to so many ships so quickly (multiple targets simultaneously, fire and forget) while the overseers can continually add hull points (which works with any type of target)...given the domina's cooldown and AM cost, its really only useful to use these things on high priority targets...

Yes, dominas have a higher repair rate than hoskikos, but dominas can only affect one ship at a time while hoskikos can affect many targets at a time...so, naturally, it is only fair that dominas repair more hull (and the repair ends if the domina is destroyed or given new orders)...I'd also add that TEC have antimatter regen in their culture, so their relatively cheap abilities are already cheaper...

I don't think an increase in supply will be necessary...but, it is definitely something to consider using if there is just no good way to balance the domina otherwise...

Even if the AM cost and cooldown were zero, the domina still can only affect one target at a time...it can't even disable an enemy while repairing a friendly ship at the same time, but hoskikos can simultaneously disable and repair multiple ships at the same time...likewise, Vasari can disable and repair ships simultaneously since the abilities are on two different ships...

I've built large amounts of domina's before and they are just too easy to kill...they are (relatively speaking) not cheap given what you could get otherwise for 4 fleet supply, they can't affect very many targets, and they are very slow, making it difficult to get them where they need to be (that they have to face their target doesn't help)...even with no AM cost or cooldown, these things are still going to be severely limited when it comes to helping frigates...

I'm not certain yet, but just a reduction in cooldown and AM cost might still leave this ability rather weak...but I think it is a start, and a fleet supply of 5 is a good counterbalance if the abilities become too powerful...

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Seleuceia

Join Date 01/2008

+240

I am releasing the changes I have suggested before...they are by no means set in stone, but at least we have something to play around with...this change log is cumulative...

Here is a the download...

Change Log

Project Equilibrium - Frigate & Structure Abilities v0.20 -- Released 7/29/2010

Structure Changes

-TEC Hangar
--Antimatter regeneration rate increased from .25 to .45

-Advent Hangar
--Antimatter regeneration rate increased from .35 to .65

-Vasari Hangar
--Antimatter regeneration rate increased from .25 to .45

--Phasic Trap
---Max number of targets decreased from infinite to 50
---Now is an instant action, not periodic action

Frigate Changes

-Domina Subjugator

--Suppression
---Antimatter cost decreased from 75 to 50 antimatter
---Cooldown decreased from 30s to 10s

--Perseverance
---Antimatter cost decreased from 150 to 100 antimatter
---Cooldown decreased from 60s to 20s

-Cielo Command Cruiser

--Embolden
---Shield regeneration rate increased from 2.5 per second to 5 per second
---Weapon cooldown reduction increased from from 10% to 25%

-Serevun Overseer

--Jump Degradation
---Is now passive

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(Cutting the Domina's cooldowns by 2/3 and AM costs by 1/3 seems like a big change)

Both of these abilities are channeling abilities, so in practice this isn't nearly as big of a buff as it may appear. The domina is still only capable of using one of its abilities at a time, and this just allows it re-target.

Yes, dominas have a higher repair rate than hoskikos, but dominas can only affect one ship at a time while hoskikos can affect many targets at a time

Not to mention we're comparing a T3 unupgraded support cruiser to a T5 support cruiser with a T6 upgrade.

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Seleuceia

Join Date 01/2008

+240

I think I may have a solution to our repulsion problem...here are the two instant action buffs applied to all affected ships...

numInstantActions 2
instantAction
   buffInstantActionType "InitializeMovementTowardLastSpawner"
   instantActionTriggerType "OnDelay"
   delayTime 0.000000
   minLinearSpeed -600.000000
   maxLinearSpeed -600.000000
instantAction
   buffInstantActionType "ResetPhysicsState"
   instantActionTriggerType "OnBuffFinish"

Note the second instant action that resets the physics state...that's the one that forces ships to accelerate from zero...

I took that instant action out, and I think the ability may work the way we want it...repulsion effectively keeps ships away from the iconus guardian, but affected ships seem to retain the speed and acceleration they had before the repulsion field was activated....so, as soon as the field is down, ships are instantly moving at their previous speeds, no need to re-accelerate...this should prevent caps from being knocked cold and having to accelerate again...

If everyone is okay with this solution (as opposed to making caps unaffected), I'll update the current version with this change...

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^I'd prefer just leaving caps unaffected (completely), but I'm not an expert on repulse so I wouldn't give my opinion much weight here.

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I took that instant action out, and I think the ability may work the way we want it...repulsion effectively keeps ships away from the iconus guardian, but affected ships seem to retain the speed and acceleration they had before the repulsion field was activated...

I'll need to see how it works in practice, but if it does work out this could be the ideal solution.

If it doesn't work out, we'll probably need to make capital ships unaffected, but until then this is good.

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Seleuceia

Join Date 01/2008

+240

So far we have addressed 4 of the 6 support ships and 5 of their 13 abilities...

Both domina abilities have been tweaked, the cielo's embolden has been buffed, the overseer's jump degradation is passive, and repulsion has been tweaked on the iconus guardian...

I'd say that designate target is fine (-40% damage reduction is a 66% increase to damage taken if I understand this correctly)...but I'm open to suggestions...the hoshiko repair ability is fine...I'd say reactive nanites on the overseer is fine, and the phase detection ability really can't be buffed...shield projection on the guardian is fine...

That leaves the hoshiko and subverter...of those two ships, the only abilities I can see any reason to mess with would be demolition bots and distortion field...shield disrupt seems fine, and honestly I don't even know if demolition bots really needs a buff (it's just overshadowed by an awesome repair ability)...

Lets first look at distortion field...this ability costs 130 AM and has a cooldown of 60s...the AoE has a range of 2000m and a duration of 20s...now, this ship has 350 AM and an AM regen rate of 1 per second...what does this all mean?

Three of these things can keep a group of ships and structures completely disabled indefinitely...with a cooldown of 60s and an AM regen rate of 1, this ability essentially costs only 70 AM...given the AM capacity of 350, 3 subverters can keep a group of enemy ships continuously disabled for about 340s, which is almost 6 straight minutes...now granted, this requires some micro, but this is flat out ridiculous....so, how do we fix this? Or, does this need to even be fixed at all?

I say yes...if the Vasari are as powerful as the other factions only because they have ludicrous advantages like this, then the Vasari need to be buffed elsewhere and this ability toned down...disrupt shields on this thing is already the king of cap and SB killing support abilities that a frigate can provide...distortion field just makes this ship insane...

Now, the important thing is to not kill this ability so that it's too weak...one phase jump and that ship is now at 250 AM, allowing only 3-4 minutes of continuous disablement...also, people claim these ships are easy to kill since they jump into enemy fleets...not sure I really buy that, but it's been said a lot...that being said, I still think it needs to be put in its place...

There are several things that can be changed...the range (2000), the AM cost (130), the duration (20s), the cooldown (60s), and the number of max targets (infinite)...

To put this into perspective, repulsion costs 90 AM and then 4 per second (for up to 30s) or a max of 210 AM...perseverance on the Domina costs 150 (though it may be reduced to 100 in this mod)...if perseverance is seen weak and repulsion is seen as still too powerful despite its high antimatter cost, I don't see how distortion field can get away with just 130 AM...

So, what if the AM cost of this ability was increased? Lets say, we made the AM cost 150...so, with AM regen taken into account the effective AM cost would be 90 (up from 70)...that basically means 3 subverters could only keep a group of ships continuously disabled for 4-5 minutes...to me, that's still really powerful, but this ability does require micro to use well...we could keep upping the antimatter cost, but I don't know if that is the best way to do this...if the AM cost is too high, phase jumping could render this ability useless...so let's just say the AM cost is increased a bit from 130 to 150...what else do we do?

Well, the cooldown is fairly long (as long as perseverance is/was)...it could be increased, but that just means 4, or 5 subverters can keep some ships continually disabled (and people already build a crap ton of these)...

So, what if duration was decreased? Well, you could argue that, like increasing cooldown, this would just bump up the threshold needed to keep a group of ships continuously disabled...except that shorter duration has one key difference, it requires more micro...halve the duration, and the human players suddenly has to make twice as many actions to get the same effect...my feeling is, if you reduced the duration from 20 to 15s, this ability would be much more difficult to use continuously...

Range...well, range could be decreased, but I think if this ability is more AM expensive and more difficult to micro, the player should at least get to enjoy the current range...

So, here is my proposal...distortion field's AM cost is increased from 130 to 150 (I can see it going even higher) and the duration is decreased from 20s to 15s...you still get the ability interrupt from this, and the enemy ships still have to accelerate from zero, but it's a lot harder now to micro and effectively keep ships continuously disabled....feedback appreciated...

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Pbhead

Join Date 12/2008

+77

I would suggust making demobots not require the hoho to face its target.

not nessasary as a balance thing, but as a "why the hell is this not the case?!?" thing.

expecially considering about every support frig except the hoshiko and ceilo got a turn buff in 1.8

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Seleuceia

Join Date 01/2008

+240

??? You have to face the target??? That is just crazy...yeah that is going to be fixed in the next update...

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Seleuceia

Join Date 01/2008

+240

Here is an update...repulsion has been fixed (hopefully) and demolition bots no longer requires the hoshiko to face it's target...distortion field has also been changed with above changes...

I think it is important to make sure demolition bots isn't too powerful (doubt that it will, but you never know) and that distortion field isn't too weak (Vasari haven't gotten the most nerfs and least buffs overall)...

Here is a link and below is an updated cumulative change log:

Change Log

Project Equilibrium - Frigate & Structure Abilities v0.30 -- Released 7/30/2010

Structure Changes

-TEC Hangar
--Antimatter regeneration rate increased from .25 to .45

-Advent Hangar
--Antimatter regeneration rate increased from .35 to .65

-Vasari Hangar
--Antimatter regeneration rate increased from .25 to .45

--Phasic Trap
---Max number of targets decreased from infinite to 50
---Now is an instant action, not periodic action

Frigate Changes

-Domina Subjugator

--Suppression
---Antimatter cost decreased from 75 to 50 antimatter
---Cooldown decreased from 30s to 10s

--Perseverance
---Antimatter cost decreased from 150 to 100 antimatter
---Cooldown decreased from 60s to 20s

-Iconus Guardian

--Repulsion
---No longer resets the acceleration and speed of affected ships

-Hoshiko Repair Cruiser

--Demolition Bots
---No longer needs to face target in order to use ability

-Cielo Command Cruiser

--Embolden
---Shield regeneration rate increased from 2.5 per second to 5 per second
---Weapon cooldown reduction increased from from 10% to 25%

-Stikalus Subverter

--Distortion Field
---Antimatter cost increased from 130 to 150
---Duration decreased from 20s to 15s

-Serevun Overseer

--Jump Degradation
---Now is passive

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Looks good;

You wanna set up a time to have a game (all three mods enabled simultaneously) over the weekend?

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Seleuceia

Join Date 01/2008

+240

That would be good...I'm available most of saturday and sunday...so, how about 1 PM or so Saturday? So, that be 2PM eastern time I guess...but if that isn't going to work I'm flexible...

As far as I know there are 4 mods out there...the capital ship abilities, these abilities, the weapon type modifiers, and then the envoy/pacts mod...now, in order to integrate the capital ship abilities and the envoy/pacts mod, a new entity manifest will have to be created...not a big problem, but it will have to get done...

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Pbhead

Join Date 12/2008

+77

sunday looks good to me, as saturday, i am gone all day long.

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Seleuceia

Join Date 01/2008

+240

Sunday afternoon then? Around 1 or 2?

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so, how about 1 PM or so Saturday?

2 PM Eastern, 11 AM Pacific. I'm there.

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Seleuceia

Join Date 01/2008

+240

Alright...I'll try to be there on Sunday too around the same time...

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Seleuceia

Join Date 01/2008

+240

Since the weekend is here and I'm sure a lot of people would like to do some testing, there is now a compilation of all 4 min-mods currently in progress...my apologies if it is not complete or the change log is not perfect...I tried to compile different string files and entity manifests as accurately as possible, but I will admit it was a bit rushed so that there would be a compilation for testing this weekend...

The changes in the current version are by no means permanent or complete...it is simply the best effort to have something available that allows all changes to be tested...

You can download the compilation here...

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Seleuceia

Join Date 01/2008

+240

With all support cruisers at least looked at, I think it'd be a good idea to move onto other abilities...if there's an ability you think is problematic, by all means bring it up...

I'd first like to look at the scout ship abilities...granted, they aren't exactly the most important things, but I think it would be worth buffing them so they're worth researching...I just don't ever see people use martyrdom or timed explosives to any effect....and the vasari ability, selective phasing, I think is the worst of the 3...at least the TEC and Advent have the ability to still "see" a planet after the scout ship is destroyed, but the Vasari don't and selective phasing doesn't seem very useful....any thoughts on these?

Starbases also may need to be looked at...any thoughts on SB abilities would be appreciated...

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