Don't just join his band wagon and defend him because hes your buddy. Its no secret to those playing this game that crystal is the rarest resource and vasari have the best resource economy while the tec have the best cash economy early game.Its no secret in game that the advent needs 55 crystal for each illum while the defense vessel needs like 20.. so yeah your buying the rest from the black market for each shortage which further increases the illums cash requirement. X+Y maths too difficult for you?

I highlighted to him what he was missing which an intelligent person will figure out that its of importance and not jump the gun and say hey why don't you produce a dozen spreadsheets like yarlen has instead of playing and gaining knowledge from experience. So you need proof as to the whats the missing data? So what!? Get it yourself. If you think im right then you can accept it and if you think im wrong in my approach then you can ignore it and continue your path of noobish gameplay. Either way im in a more comfortable position playing the game than you and will continue to learn how to-stop asking to be spoon fed and stop depending on dev.exe to improve my gameplay.

A replay is a good solution to the so called nerf debate but how good is a replay to Seleuceia? Lets be perfectly honest about this issue. At his level of thinking, or yours then how will you all be able to decipher whats happening in the replay? How will you analyze the data? I can spend hours watching that rechid howthe and pro masterial play but i don't think Seleuceia has what it takes and im sorry for saying so.

*looks and sees RiddleKing is being unreasonable again*

*Sighs*

*disappears to read actually useful posts*

It's probably best to avoid buying on the black market altogether unless you're TEC.  Advent have a crappy enough economy as it is, buying lots of crystal at inflated prices is not a good idea normally, and doubly so for Advent.

Its the facepalm effect. I'll try..

1. I won't supply you with data because its spoon feeding.

2. You apply fleet supply cost after the builds which also include the temple of hostilities needed and unit research costs on top of the actual unit builds.

3. While you continue to attack the illumminator from a per unit perspective i think you should first skip data analysis and make a list of everything you need to roll out illums as fast as possible. That also inlcudes choosing to colonize ice planets first or 2 frigate factories. Everybody can crunch spreadsheet data but for what purpose is it worth if you can determine whats expensive and whats not through logic.

4.Spreadsheet data analysis involves assumptionist data like i have 2 ice planets with enough crystal so i can produce lots of illums now or i only have roids and a volcanic so i can only produce defense vessels. The economy and its spending has to based on very different scenarios and logic states that because researching crytal extraction upgrades starts at tier 3 as opposed to metal at tier two then its only logical to apply the worse case scenario where crystal is a rare resource and thus we must produce defense vessels over the illums expensive approach.

If anyone agrees with me then say so because if my logic is flawed then i urge you to keep believing dev.exe data for the purpose of your strategies.

Then you don't care about making your point. You can't dismiss other people's analysis just because you're too lazy to come up with your own data. If you're right you should be thanking us for misleading the masses, giving you easier wins with your obviously better "intuition" that can magically calculate what units are better.

I haven't been keeping up with the other thread to know why a Illum vs. Corvettes thread got to defense vessels. But the extra hostility lab and slightly more expensive research are sunk costs and becomes irrelevant on a per unit costs late game with hundreds of frigates flying around. If the particular scenario you're arguing about is early game then it is more important, perhaps the most important thing.

I never said Illums were a good early unit. Rest is same as above, I'm looking at the per unit stats because that's what is always relevant. As you said, early on whether its feasible to get this or that depends a lot on game conditions at the time. All I did was prove that Seleuceia's claim that Defense vessels are more expensive under certain market conditions is true. Whether the typical multiplayer conditions prevent that from being true or the extra sunk costs of the illuminator make that irrelevant early game is for you to prove.

I didn't assume anything about the map conditions in my analysis. I simply said Illums have a 33% cheaper credit cost and a roughly twice as expensive crystal cost, as well as the required market conditions needed to displace that cost with credits. Its up to the player to take that information and adapt it to their circumstance in multiplayer. If you do have crystal to spare then the Illuminator is easily cheaper. If its not and crystal prices are always near 600 then defense vessels are more economical.

what are we even arguing here?

 flack are still op after i got em nerfed?

illums are up compared to flack? 

or flack vs corvettes VS corvettes vs illums?

RiddleKing has a good point - ship production depends on resources you have and random map can change these conditions, making comparisons harder. Seleuceia's argument isn't wrong in itself, but it's separated from the live game itself and thus not as reliable as one might think because he assumes that one race is capable of fielding ship X in Y numbers but that is not a hard data in itself, yet another assumtion. If you want to compare fleet sizes and achieve tested and solid results you really have to test it in a live game, as GoaFan77 has said. And by "you" I mean both of you.

Lol RiddleKing, you are such a troll...first this:

I almost burst a gut laughing when I read this...just for the hell of it, I tried out that scenario, utilizing different micro strategies...best I could get the flak to do was kill 1 of the 15 Illuminators...I would love to see a replay of you beating 15 Illuminators with 11 Defense Vessels...

Now for the OP...

When it comes to planets, Terran HWs, moons, and uncolonizables (asteroid belt, space junk, gas giant) are the only planets to favor metal over crystal to any degree...everything else is essentially equal in that regard...

After player starts, wormholes, and pirate bases are allocated, random maps use "WeightedRandom" to fill in the rest of the map...using the entries under "WeightedRandom", the planet entity files, and an assumed average alllegiance of 90% (culture included), I estimate the ratio of metal to crystal to be 1.238...this took into account the average counts of each resource asteroid at each planet type, the difference in production between a neutral and non-neutral extractor, the probability of a given planet being spawned, and allegiance (which does not affect neutrals)...the 90% average allegiance was just an estimate...with culture, you are going to have 110% at your HW, 100% 1 jump away, and 90% 2 jumps away...quite frankly, the 90% average is probably an underestimate for an early game frontliner, but whatever...

If you wanted to look at just early game, then in fairness we should use the player start (terran HW, asteroid, moon, ice/volcanic) plus some additional planets...I'd reason that by the time you'd switch to illuminators (if appropriate given the enemy's fleet), you'd have anywhere from 1-3 additional "WeightedRandom" planets (including uncolonizables with neutrals) depending on the map layout and how pressured you are...

Doing that calculation, and again assuming an average allegiance of 90% (culture included), I estimate the average ratio of metal to crystal to be 1.31...

If you really want to see my calculations, I'll show them, but I feel then that I'd just be "spoon-feeding" you....anyway, here are the comparisons:

Ratio of metal to crystal for Illuminator: 1.09

Ratio of metal to crystal for Defense Vessel:  2.00

Likely ratio of metal to crystal income in early game: 1.31

Seems like buying crystal for the Illuminator is going to be a lot easier than buying metal for the Defense Vessel...

There are other expenses to consider, such as planet upgrades, other ships (Corvettes and LFs), planet structures (labs, extractors, frigate factories, repair bays, and beam platforms), and technologies (prototypes, colonization, culture structure, and some weapon techs)...of all those expenses, only labs and technologies cost more crystal, and you won't be getting very many labs or technologies that early in the game...compare that to the loads of planet upgrades (easily 2 if not more per planet), LFs (which are all metal, no crystal), defense vessels (2x as much metal as crystal), and tactical structures...I think you will find that your empire is in much more need of metal than it is of crystal, even more than the 1.31 ratio you can expect...if anything, the lower metal-to-crystal ratio of the Illuminator will come as a relief when compounded with all your other early game expenses...

Anyway, you entire argument relies solely on one idea: that due to market conditions and income, the crystal heavy Illuminators will actually be more expensive...

I don't believe your idea is even correct, but even if it were, Goa has already indicated the conditions necessary to make defense vessels cheaper than Illuminators...and even if those conditions are met, the cost difference between the two units is still going to be negligible...

You claimed that Defense vessels were "easier to roll out", which implies they are both cheaper and build faster...I have shown the exact opposite, that Defense vessels are more expensive and take more time to build...even if your crystal argument was valid, the cost of the units is still going to be comparable, yet defense vessels still will take 80% longer to build...Illuminators are easier to amass than defense vessels, end of story...the only situation that wouldn't be true is a situation where it is nigh impossible to get three military labs, such as some silly custom map that is entirely dead asteroids...last time I checked though, most skilled games are on random maps...

I have never said defense vessels are useless nor claimed you should build fleets that are 100% illuminators (spam implies a lot, not 100%)...in fact, many of my tests combined illuminators with their natural compliment, defense vessels...all I did was refute your claim that "Defense vessels are easier to roll out"...

This thread is 100% troll...Illuminators still require more metal than crystal, and at a ratio much closer to your likely metal-to-crystal income...FYI, most black market dealings early game involve selling resources, not buying...high metal units like LFs and Defense vessels will likely require selling of crystal, then buying of metal...Illuminators will likely only need selling of some metal, which is far more efficient...putting this into the context of other early game purchases that are credit and/or metal heavy, I find your argument completely ludicrous, and more proof that you just want to disagree with me because I'm me....

Good rhetoric is bull without hard data to back it up.

I said per fleet supply the Illum was cheaper in credits and the Defense vessel was cheaper on crystal. They are even in metal costs, so I don't know where Seleuceia is getting that from. Of course the Illum has a higher supply costs, which is why I always take that into account when analyzing ship stats.

If you want to argue X fleet supply of defense vessels is better than X fleet supply of illuminators now that's something else entirely, though rather pointless. Flak is going to be better in certain situation and Illums others based on what they counter.

In the original thread I was Arguing The same side as you Riddle, but frankly making a new thread to call someone out like this is immature before the trash talk comes into play- with said abrasive comments it's just plain petty and juvenile.

I could always say " He started it!" but that wud still be immature. I know your right but now that its happened, case closed and lets move on.

Don't expect me to apologize to him or anything girlish like that. He better learn2play.