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Timmaigh
Timmaigh
Join Date 05/2009
+76

Help me with rechtschreibung - and perhaps logic

September 3, 2014 1:40:00 PM from Sins of a Solar Empire ForumsSins of a Solar Empire Forums

I dont know if this is even possible, because of difference between my language and english, but i still want to ask.

I had argument today with a random guy about whether in a sentence:

"We invite you to the first founding meeting blah blah blah..." there is a comma "," symbol between words first and founding. Actually it looked like this: "we invite you to 1., founding meeting..." 

Now he claimed the comma has to be there, i thought otherwise.

As i said, since in english it can be different, maybe nobody here can really help me. But there is more to it, let me explain:

in my language those adjectives are meant to be attribute. If there is more of them, we call it either developed or additive attribute. You dont write comma between 2 adjectives if its the developed one (like for example black curly hair), and you do if its additive one (like in a sentence "there were red, yellow and green apples").

Additionally he claimed if there was no comma, you could have as well second or third founding meeting. Which obviously is logical, but is it any relevant to grammar/spelling? And what about the fact, that not every first meeting has to be founding, even if every founding meeting is inherently first?

So whats your opinion on this?

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Timmaigh
LightStar
Join Date 12/2002
+1413
Reply #1 September 3, 2014 2:02:48 PM
from WinCustomize ForumsWinCustomize Forums

The comma is not needed Timmaigh, and if there is only one meeting the 1. isn't needed either. If there is more than one meeting, then it would go "1. meeting one, 2. meeting 2, 3. meeting 3, etc."

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Timmaigh
Cauldyth
Join Date 07/2004
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Reply #2 September 3, 2014 3:03:10 PM
from Elemental ForumsElemental Forums

Agreed, no comma.  And if he's using "1." to indicate "the first" of what will eventually be a series of meetings, then that's also non-standard and confusing.  It should be either "the first" or "the 1st" if that's the intent.

 

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Timmaigh
Timmaigh
Join Date 05/2009
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Reply #3 September 3, 2014 3:32:27 PM
from Sins of a Solar Empire ForumsSins of a Solar Empire Forums

Its meant to be the first of the series, but obviously only this first one is the one to be called founding at the same time.

They wanted to have both words, first and founding, i guess to make it more prominent and striking, even if its technically redundant.

Thank you BTW. 

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Timmaigh
Cauldyth
Join Date 07/2004
+29
Reply #4 September 3, 2014 4:31:43 PM
from Elemental ForumsElemental Forums

Oh, actually I kind of take it back then, I think the comma is needed.  If there were several founding meetings and this is the first one of them, then no comma.  But the "founding" is being added as an auxiliary piece of information and is not part of the main piece of information.  It's like saying "The first (i.e. founding) meeting."  So yeah, I say it needs a comma.

 

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Timmaigh
Timmaigh
Join Date 05/2009
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Reply #5 September 3, 2014 4:44:20 PM
from Sins of a Solar Empire ForumsSins of a Solar Empire Forums

Quoting Cauldyth,
reply 4

Oh, actually I kind of take it back then, I think the comma is needed.  If there were several founding meetings and this is the first one of them, then no comma.  But the "founding" is being added as an auxiliary piece of information and is not part of the main piece of information.  It's like saying "The first (i.e. founding) meeting."  So yeah, I say it needs a comma.

 

 

Do you think though its possible to have multiple founding meetings? Or its by definition there can only be one founding meeting, the first one?

I mean even though its assumed the foundation will happen on this very first meeting, if that somehow did not happen due some unforeseen circumstances, like say argument over something, which could not be dealt with right away and another meeting would be required for the process to be finished, could that second meeting be called founding in such case as well? Or not?

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Timmaigh
Krazikarl
Join Date 03/2006
+24
Reply #6 September 3, 2014 4:46:23 PM
from Stardock ForumsStardock Forums

Whether or not you put commas between adjectives can be tricky.  An article on it:

http://www.quickanddirtytips.com/education/grammar/commas-with-adjectives

I believe that there should be a comma in this case.  If you were trying to say first (founding meeting) you wouldn't need one, but I don't think that's what you are going for.  I think that founding is separate from meeting, so you do need the comma.

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Timmaigh
Cauldyth
Join Date 07/2004
+29
Reply #7 September 3, 2014 5:01:31 PM
from Elemental ForumsElemental Forums

Quoting Timmaigh,
reply 5

Do you think though its possible to have multiple founding meetings? Or its by definition there can only be one founding meeting, the first one?

Well, now that gets into more subtleties of what the intended meaning of "founding" was.  If this is just the first in a series of more or less similar meetings, then I'd argue there can be only one founding meeting and a comma should be used (since "first" and "founding" are redundant).  However, things change if this first meeting (and possibly the first few meetings that follow) are either

  1. intended to discuss (and therefore found) something other than the series of meetings themselves
  2. intended to discuss how the later meetings will be organized/run/etc., and therefore these first meetings will be of a different nature than the meetings that will come later in the series

If either of those are true, then yeah, there could be multiple founding meetings, in which case no comma.

 

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Timmaigh
Timmaigh
Join Date 05/2009
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Reply #8 September 3, 2014 5:13:41 PM
from Sins of a Solar Empire ForumsSins of a Solar Empire Forums

Quoting Krazikarl,
reply 6

Whether or not you put commas between adjectives can be tricky.  An article on it:

http://www.quickanddirtytips.com/education/grammar/commas-with-adjectives

I believe that there should be a comma in this case.  If you were trying to say first (founding meeting) you wouldn't need one, but I don't think that's what you are going for.  I think that founding is separate from meeting, so you do need the comma.

Thank you Karl, nice reading.

You can put AND between first and founding pretty ok i think, on other hand saying "founding first meeting" sounds weird to me...

 

Anyway I tend to think now the comma should be there, so i was wrong.

Still i got annoyed by the guy, cause i had little conversation over this via e-mail and he concluded it in a way that i should leave it up to him and my boss, cause our discussion over it does not lead anywhere. Even if it turns out he is right in the end, it was sort of offensive, cause my boss is not any more qualified in this regard than me and more importantly, i was not some kind of idiot trying to convince him say there is an "y" in the word dick. It was actually relevant concern and as you said, it can be clearly fairly tricky.

 

EDIT: Thanks to all of you again!

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Timmaigh
DaveBax
Join Date 10/2007
+629
Reply #9 September 3, 2014 7:43:25 PM
from WinCustomize ForumsWinCustomize Forums

If either one of these is used no comma.

We invite you to the first founding meeting.   OR   

We invite you to the 1st founding meeting. 

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Timmaigh
Jafo
Join Date 03/2001
+1716 sdemployee
Reply #10 September 3, 2014 11:21:04 PM
from WinCustomize ForumsWinCustomize Forums


"we invite you to 1., founding meeting..."

It's wrong.

It would only definitely be right if it were eg. "1., 2., 3.," etc where the commas define a number series.... no different to "blue, yellow, red," ...Spell checker

....otherwise the use of both '1.' and 'founding' is both redundant and superfluous ...

Note also 'both' is singular...ie. it's a single-use of both words and thus IS redundant and superfluous, not ARE redundant and superfluous ...

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Timmaigh
Fuzzy Logic
Join Date 05/2002
+493
Reply #11 September 4, 2014 3:07:48 PM
from WinCustomize ForumsWinCustomize Forums

We invite you to the first (founding) meeting of the WinCustomize Grammar Appreciation Society

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Timmaigh
ElanaAhova
Join Date 09/2008
+105
Reply #12 September 8, 2014 8:50:27 AM
from Elemental ForumsElemental Forums

Quoting Fuzzy Logic,
reply 11

We invite you to the first (founding) meeting of the WinCustomize Grammar Appreciation Society

Best answer, you get an "A+" for a job well done. 

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Timmaigh
BoXXi
Join Date 03/2001
+336
Reply #13 September 8, 2014 10:48:48 AM
from WinCustomize ForumsWinCustomize Forums

We invite you to; The first (founding) meeting of the WinCustomize Grammar Appreciation Society.

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