Where's your proof?  Where's your support?  You have none!  You just make blanket statements...I actually determined the ratio of metal to crystal one can expect to earn, and I compared that to the metal/crystal ratios of both Illuminators and Defense Vessels....you have done nothing but disagree with everything I say...it's not about whether I'm actually right or wrong, it's all about RiddleKing having to troll Seleuceia cause, hey, it's fun and it's garnering more forum activity than anything else...

Let us now do some basic math...the general conversion ratio for credit to resource is 4.5 credits per 1 metal/crystal, a number that Darvin used when he was active and what I have chosen to use...you don't like it, make a case for a different number...

Illuminator costs 380 credits, 60 metal, and 55 crystal...that turns out to be 380 + (60 + 55) x 4.5 = 897.5

Now we divide that by the supply cost and find that the Illuminator costs 897.5 / 6 = 149.6 per fleet supply....

Defense Vessel costs 360 credits, 40 metal, and 20 crystal...that turns out to be 360 + (40 + 20) x 4.5 = 630

Now divide that by the supply cost and we find that the Defense vessel costs 630 / 4 = 157.6 per fleet supply...

I stand by my original statement (which you quoted) that defense vessels are more expensive per fleet supply than illuminators...

Let us do some more math...

Illuminators cost 60 metal and 55 crystal...60 / 55 yields a metal-to-crystal ratio of 1.09...

Defense vessels cost 40 metal and 20 crystal...40 / 20 yields a metal-to-crystal ratio of 2.00...thus, I call it metal heavy, because I was concerned with the ratio...

I have 1) shown that metal production does not grossly exceed crystal production like you have argued and 2) stated that in the early game most black market dealings are sales of resources, and as such the higher crystal cost (per fleet supply) exhibited by Illuminators is a non-issue...

Those times are the total number of seconds needed to produce 120 fleet supply of that unit with 1 factory...you can think of it as the equivalent to "manhours"...the number of factories is irrelevant, add in another factory and you still will be amassing defense vessels 80% slower than Illuminators...

The Illuminator hard counters LFs, the defense vessel hard counters Corvettes...however, the Illuminator stands up to its own counters (corvettes and flak) much better than the defense vessel stands up to its hard counter (LFs)...additionally, the illuminator builds faster and costs less overall per fleet supply...your whole crystal argument is just bogus, it does not apply to the early game where you are mostly selling resources...

I have continually stated that illuminators and defense vessels compliment each other nicely...my argument was not "ILLUMINATORS ARE BETTER THAN DEFENSE VESSELS", but that illuminators fair significantly better against their counters than the other two LRFs...you chimed in with how defense vessels are cheaper and easier to "roll out", which I have shown is both wrong and irrelevant to my original argument anyway...

RiddleKing actually did make this exact argument...I believe his claim was that 11 Defense Vessels can defeat 15 Illuminators, a claim that I easily disproved (though intuition was enough to suggest it was wrong)...of course, RiddleKing would never admit he just made up those numbers, much less admit they are wrong...and yet he accuses me of getting numbers out of thin air...

Ekko and Bilun have made very reasonable arguements and have expressed their feelings in regards to the viability of early illuminators...I don't agree with them, but I respect their opinions because they have a sense of logic and understanding of the game...you on the other hand have resorted entirely to bashing, mixing it in with obviously wrong statements (11 flak vs. 15 illuminators, seriously?)...

I'll agree you can get three military labs up and go the earlier illuminator route in some circumstances, but I still don't feel it is going to fit into the flow of most games without delaying you enough to get stomped. I still feel like it relies on not being pressed enough early on. I forgot about scuttling the capital ship factory for the space though. My main disagreement was much less on whether it is possible to use them in some cases (I'm sure it is, just less so than most other things), and more to do with them needing to be nerfed due to extra resilience to corvettes than other LRFs - I see this is as a design feature that compensates for their other drawbacks without affecting overall game balance at all.

Anyway, the carrier part is also not standard but more in response to what I see or where I am in the game - I don't get them early game generally, I meant more that, at still just 2 labs, it's a very attractive option to switch to instead of, say illuminators, once you've got your defense vessels, LFs, and corvettes fleet out since they remain useful really well into the late game. They're great to get earlier vs. Vasari I find though, who love their SBs and LRFs. Actually, I'd say I often transition to carriers as soon as the game lets me. Especially if I"m in a spot where I know I won't be teching to a Titan any time soon. They're just too good against too many different targets to pass on - Advent ones especially are amazing, if costly. They take forever to kill, sit on the edge of the grav well to escape if needed, and basically don't bleed you at all the way other frigates/HCs would in battle.

What really caught my attention was how poorly corvettes performed Illuminators on a per fleet supply basis relative to the other hard counters (including other corvette vs. LRF match ups)...when the Vasari corvettes outright lost, that really threw a red flag for me...on a per cost basis, the counter works, but I think therein lies a problem...as the game progresses, per fleet supply strength becomes more important and per cost strength becomes less important, and I think this is one fundamental reason why Corvettes (and probably LFs) really wane in their usefulness late game...this isn't the single, best way to rememdy that problem, it's just one small change that I think needs to be done and will easily be overlooked...

It seems that the devs will be adding a new weapontype for Corvettes, but there has been no indication of a new armortype...the next update (whatever it does) will incorporate the new weapontype and may even make some stat changes to corvettes...I just think that the anti-medium damage table values could easily be overlooked and their excellent value against very light armor will still persist even after the next update, which is why I brought up the issue...

and with just that-- dash ends the topic  so we can all pack our bags and go play with illums.

..

Quick note: Illums are not good vs Titans with their focus fire limitations. I really wish they were but they aint which is why i truly believe in Defense vessel + Crusaders + Guardian Fleets to end the game.

I do- you only need like 5 or 7 with advent: 21 squads or more with caps, titans and i let the crusaders do the rest of the heavy armor punching

hmm best response in this thread

Out eco any other eco spot and feed resources to your teammates in need. This is the point of it - to buff your teammates and enable them to win their fights. Letting your teammates fend for themselves is not a good idea because they may be in a 2v1 situation and will likely be knocked out before you get a chance to build up a fleet yourself.  Later on, once you have a healthy economy running, start building your own fleet. You're in a unique position to build whatever fleet composition you want based on what you've noticed the enemies doing so far - but generally getting a Titan out with a supporting fleet (usually carrier heavy) is the first step and then starting to invade some border worlds.